The Egyptian coup plotters go full thug

[fuji]

Morsi did not represent democratic values fuji, who are you trying to kid. He tried to pull a Chavez on the Egyptian people. Much like many places in the world, the citizenry are polarized as to the future direction of the country. Its going to get worse before it gets better, that much I can say.

Morsi stood for an Islamist outlook and worldview which YOU ASSUME is incompatible with democracy for reasons of your own personal ideology. The facts are he played by the rules and enacted a constitution that enshrined voting rights for everyone, including women.

Yes he believed in lots of things that I find objectionable, but he pursued them through the polls.

I support the democratic system, it is more important to me to have democracy, than to have the leader I wanted. I would rather have had the secular leaders win the election, but Morsi won in a free and fair vote.

In deposing him, the baby had to be thrown out with the bathwater. Freedom of assembly, free press, free speech, free elections, fair courts, the rule of law, all the fundamentals which were largely upheld under Morsi were chucked out.

I would rather have five years of an objectionable leader under a real democracy followed by a fair election, than have "my guy" in power as a dictator followed by a totalitarian crackdown on democratic rights.

 

[basketcase]

Morsi stood for an Islamist outlook and worldview which YOU ASSUME is incompatible with democracy ...

You mean assumptions besides putting forward a constitution that gave preference to Muslims? Besides it giving Islamic clerics a role in legislation and courts? Besides his party promoting attacks on religious minorities? Besides limiting the rights of women?

The current government might not be much better but pretending Morsi was democratic is a joke, even by terb standards.



And I'm still waiting for you to give some evidence of the vote being rigged.


(The overwhelming Yes vote was not due to corruption but a boycott by Islamist parties - their right in a democracy)

 

[fuji]

You mean assumptions besides putting forward a constitution that gave preference to Muslims?

Actually, "Abrahamic religions", not ideal by Canadians standards but it did extend rights to Jews and Christians. Jews for the first time.

Besides it giving Islamic clerics a role in legislation and courts?

Which he was elected to do.

Besides his party promoting attacks on religious minorities?

Did they? By the time of the worst events most of the MB leaders were prison. Clearly Egypt has serious issues with ethnic violence, religious bigotry, especially against Christians.

But to say that was new under Morsi is naive, and while no doubt members of his party are guilty, so are others, and there seems to no reason link that to Morsi himself, or his leadership.

Really the tendency to turn on minorities is an Egyptian problem that had a long history. Throwing out democracy also doesn't seem like a solution to that problem.

Besides limiting the rights of women?

Sorry but women were given full voting rights.

The current government might not be much better but pretending Morsi was democratic is a joke, even by terb standards.

You are still confusing the man with the system. Even if Morsi and his party are problematic in their outlook and worldview, the system was worth a lot more than that. It's like saying we should throw out democracy in Toronto because Rob Ford is problematic.

The solution is to publicize the complaints, raise the issues with voters. Think he disrespects women and minorities? Don't like laws based on Islam? Take it to the people in the next election.

The current military regime is just as bad or worse, but one difference is absolutely crucial: Morsi's rule was democratic, however objectionable, Egyptians got another kick at the can every four years. The current dictatorship rules by the gun and there is no reason to think real democracy ever coming back.

Their graft and violence cannot be held in check by ballots, whatever you thought of Morsi, he was ultimately going to be accountable at the polls.

And I'm still waiting for you to give some evidence of the vote being rigged.

(The overwhelming Yes vote was not due to corruption but a boycott by Islamist parties - their right in a democracy)

Where by "boycott" you mean they were prevented from campaigning, detained in mass arrests and held without charge, journalists who gave them press coverage were arrested, their own media outlets were shuttered, their leaders imprisoned and held in isolation, and their public assemblies dispersed by gunfire.

That is what you mean by boycott? It is impossible to imagine a fair election under those circumstances.

But there were also many reports of people in rural areas, MB's support base, being chased away from the polls and beaten when they tried to vote, no observers present to validate the results, etc.

And in a country that is plainly divided on these issues, "98%" speaks for itself as a truly laughable result.

 

[seth gecko]

If only there was some Terbite, possibly currently somewhere in the general vicinity of the "middle East", and much closer to the situation, so as to give a more rationale explanation of the scenario than the gross oversimplification of "Morsi win vote = Morsi good; Army bad".
If there was such a dude (and he'd likely be a pretty awesome dude!), he'd probably compare the situation to a chess match, where the 20 Al-Jazeera employees were pawns in the bigger game, because, strangely enough, foreign journalists for the likes of BBC, Reuters, Skynews, even RT & Pravda, etc etc haven't been picked up - only Al-Jazeera?!?.
He'd likely try to bring attention to the growing regional aspiration of Qatar (coincidentally, owners of Al-jazz) and the major rivalry between the Qatari kings and the Egyptian establishment. Qatar was a major backer of the MB's in Egypt, and Al-jazeera' Arabic coverage of events was decidedly unbalanced. The MB's turned their back on "democratic principles" almost immediately after winning the elections (elections that were called by the interim military caretaker gov't. Number of elections called by the MB's? ZERO!!!) Even when faced with millions of protesters in the streets demanding early elections, the MB's balked at providing this democratic right - clearly, when it comes to the MB's and Morsi, lets just say; they ain't Cincinnatus!!
Expect to see this escalate into a diplomatic row between Qatar & Egypt, because that's really what is at the heart of this roundup of Al-jazeera employees.
That's probably what an informed, unbiased observer would say (if there was such a dude).

 

[fuji]

Yeah, Seth, because we all know that in any democracy, the correct response to "unbalanced" journalism is to have the state round up all the journalists and put them in jail. That is clearly what democracies do when they think the press is unfair. For example, Rob Ford has had the entire staff of the Toronto Star detained by Chief Blair, because he feels that the Star hasn't been fair in reporting on his crack addiction. Robyn Doolittle really ought to have known better than to try and "influence the public opinion" like that.

You were trying to defend this coup from the beginning, and as time goes on, it's really pushing you to the breaking point, to the extent that you are now joining the ranks of some of the most ludicrously ridiculous posters on this board.

I have always been able to defend my position without having to side with Morsi. The reality is indeed, elected = good. It doesn't mean I agree with Morsi, or his politics, or that I think he isn't objectionable in a variety of ways. It's that I think the democratic system is more important than any particular leader. I like Canadian democracy, even when we elect someone I think is an idiot. Morsi, flaws and all, was properly judged by the people, at the ballot box. If he was really as unpopular as you say, then all you needed to do was wait a few years for a new election.

Of course, he may actually have been more popular than you think, among the rural voters. Then again, maybe even they were getting sick of the economy going into the toilet -- either way, the option to replace the government with a bloodless election is now out the window. Replacing the current government would presumably require armed violence.

Oh, and this nifty new constitution they enacted ensures that they will be able to commit graft and fraud against the Egyptian people without any oversight for decades to come. Which of course is ultimately why they had a falling out with Morsi in the first place - he had this crazy idea that elected officials should be able to oversee spending. The Egyptian army has been for some decades now the best way to get rich in Egypt -- get yourself a nice cushy officers position, and divert funds to your family for the rest of your career. Putting their budget under the scrutiny of an elected legislature was going to spoil the party -- can't have that. The new constitution forbids the legislature from interfering in military graft.


"Number of elections called by the MB's? ZERO!!!"

Now that's just dishonest. Morsi met constitutional crises and conflict on multiple occasions by calling elections and referendums. He called for his own post to go up for re-election immediately upon the adoption of the constitution which he put to a referendum. He went to the polls repeatedly, and his attempt to put his own job up to voter scrutiny was cut short by the military.

Ideologically to many in the West that may be surprising, because we have a whole lot of beliefs about Islamists that are contradicted by an Islamist that likes elections. But Morsi was an Islamist, and he seems to have liked calling elections. And really, if you take a big look around at Muslim countries, it isn't all that uncommon. There are Islamists in Turkey who like elections, and there are Islamists in Malaysia that like elections. We've had some pretty nasty experiences with Islamists in Palestine who don't like elections, and a bunch of Arab dictatorships, the Taliban, and Iran -- but they aren't the only Islamists out there. There are indeed Islamists out there in some other countries who like calling elections.

At the very least, so long as he continued down that path -- and he was continuing down that path, calling for new elections upon adoption of that constitution -- he should have been left to do that, which ultimately means, whatever we think of Egyptian politicians, it's the Egyptian people who need to hold them to account. We can gripe about the rights of women and minorities, but at some point we need to stand back and treat the Egyptians like adults, even when they make mistakes.

 

[seth gecko]

PS: I wonder how things are in Egypt. Maybe Egyptian news might give us a clue:
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/93027.aspx
http://en.aswatmasriya.com/news/view.aspx?id=0eb71511-9bf2-4534-b657-0c37b852a49f
http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/116134-gunmen-kill-1-policeman-wound-2-at-cairo-church
http://www.masrawy.com/news/Cases/General/2014/January/27/5814821.aspx
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=668020
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/25/us-egypt-protests-explosion-idUSBREA0O0EN20140125
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/24/us-egypt-blast-idUSBREA0N09320140124

Wow, its been a busy week. But, I suppose one could say its all good since no westerners have been killed

 

[seth gecko]

Shoutout to my peeps for finding this gem (kind of related to the theme of this thread): http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3948.htm

 

[seth gecko]

Crikey! Does anyone remember this?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...66c364-e80e-11e2-aa9f-c03a72e2d342_print.html
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/9/we-aired-lies-al-jazeera-staff-quit-over-biased-eg/

 

[fuji]

Imagine a newspaper having a bias! OMG! LOCK THEM UP!

How is it that the Toronto Sun reporters are still walking around free men? How is MSNBC allowed to operate in the United States? How the fuck does FOX NEWS stay out of jail???!?! And for the love of god, will somebody please incarcerate the Huffington Post?!

It is unbelievable that a journalist would ever have a bias and clearly any right thinking democracy should immediately lock up any journalist who is anything less than fully, completely, and totally objective.

 

[Aardvark154]

Shoutout to my peeps for finding this gem (kind of related to the theme of this thread): http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3948.htm

Holy Cow!!!!!

 

[seth gecko]

Holly Cow!!!!!

Is she Elsie & Bessie's sister?
But seriously folks, that clip is indicative of the sort of crap that Al-jazeera Arabic service does.
Arresting journalists, doing their job of reporting the news according to standards of journalistic ethics, is a major problem. But taking action to curb the type of bullshit that this clip represents - I'm pretty ok with that, as I think most reasonable, well-informed folks would be (so that obviously doesn't include Fuji). The 20 arrested Al-Jazeera staffers are pawns in this, given time they likely would have made the same decision their former colleagues made (refer post #28 for that)
Here's what Egypt has to say on the matter: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/31/w...e-journalists-from-abroad.html?ref=world&_r=0
Maybe someone should try to familiarize Fuj with the "wolf in sheeps clothing" parable next time he gets on the soapbox about how democratic Morsi & the MB's are.

 

[Aardvark154]

Is she Elsie & Bessie's sister?

Yes, given that I had one too many "L's"

 

[basketcase]

Actually, "Abrahamic religions", not ideal by Canadians standards but it did extend rights to Jews and Christians. Jews for the first time.

You do realize that the constitution enshrining Sharia and allowing Islamic clerics (not elected officials) to set legislation is hardly democratic. Add to that the Brotherhood encouraging attacks on religious minorities and things would be clear to everyone but you.

Which he was elected to do.

He was elected to give unelected Muslim clerics the right to make up laws? Nice claim. He was elected simply because he was the only big name that wasn't Mubarak.

The rest of your post is just ridiculous defense of a guy no better than any other Egyptian politician. El Sissi might not be a paragon of democracy but Morsi isn't either.


Also note that more people (both percentage and total numbers) approved the current constitution which took the good parts from Morsi's.

 

[basketcase]

...
And in a country that is plainly divided on these issues, "98%" speaks for itself as a truly laughable result.

98% speaks to the fact that the MB told their supporters to boycott. That is their democratic choice.

I see you still have no evidence of vote fixing.

 

[basketcase]

Is she Elsie & Bessie's sister?
But seriously folks, that clip is indicative of the sort of crap that Al-jazeera Arabic service does. ...

Good reminder that AJ English and AJ Arabic are two very different animals. One story for us, one for their Arab world.

 

[SkyRider]

A "democracy" without human, women, minority, gay, etc. rights sounds like an oxymoron.

 

[K Douglas]

Morsi stood for an Islamist outlook and worldview which YOU ASSUME is incompatible with democracy for reasons of your own personal ideology. The facts are he played by the rules and enacted a constitution that enshrined voting rights for everyone, including women.

Yes he believed in lots of things that I find objectionable, but he pursued them through the polls.

I support the democratic system, it is more important to me to have democracy, than to have the leader I wanted. I would rather have had the secular leaders win the election, but Morsi won in a free and fair vote.

In deposing him, the baby had to be thrown out with the bathwater. Freedom of assembly, free press, free speech, free elections, fair courts, the rule of law, all the fundamentals which were largely upheld under Morsi were chucked out.

I would rather have five years of an objectionable leader under a real democracy followed by a fair election, than have "my guy" in power as a dictator followed by a totalitarian crackdown on democratic rights.

I don't assume it's clear as day. History has shown time and time again Islamists don't respect universal human rights, tolerance, freedom of the press and many of the pillars of modern democratic states. Morsi changed the constitution unilaterally to give himself almost unlimited powers (see Chavez Venezuela). He had protesters, including journalists, silenced. He makes Putin look like a choir boy. If that sounds like democracy to you fuji you need to give your head a shake.

 

[groggy]

I don't assume it's clear as day. History has shown time and time again Islamists don't respect universal human rights, tolerance, freedom of the press and many of the pillars of modern democratic states. Morsi changed the constitution unilaterally to give himself almost unlimited powers (see Chavez Venezuela). He had protesters, including journalists, silenced. He makes Putin look like a choir boy. If that sounds like democracy to you fuji you need to give your head a shake.

Yup, Morsi tried to subvert democracy to gain more power, breaking laws and attacking civilians in the process, as such he should be in jail.
Fuji pretends to back democracy, except when he doesn't like who gets elected. So he'll back Morsi because he supported Israel's stance on Gaza, which sadly the generals have also been supporting. And he'll complain about Hamas, who were democratically elected because he doesn't like them.

Egypt is a mess right now and there isn't an easy way out. Sisi is as totalitarian, perhaps more stern then Morsi and el-Nasser, but he doesn't seem to have anything to offer to the economy. Without any economic changes the people just won't put up with the regime that long. There will be another round of protests eventually.

 

[K Douglas]

Yup, Morsi tried to subvert democracy to gain more power, breaking laws and attacking civilians in the process, as such he should be in jail.
Fuji pretends to back democracy, except when he doesn't like who gets elected. So he'll back Morsi because he supported Israel's stance on Gaza, which sadly the generals have also been supporting. And he'll complain about Hamas, who were democratically elected because he doesn't like them.

Egypt is a mess right now and there isn't an easy way out. Sisi is as totalitarian, perhaps more stern then Morsi and el-Nasser, but he doesn't seem to have anything to offer to the economy. Without any economic changes the people just won't put up with the regime that long. There will be another round of protests eventually.

And I'll complain about Hamas because they are a terrorist organization who are bent on the destruction of Israel. I don't care if they got 100% of the vote.

 

[basketcase]

... So he'll back Morsi because he supported Israel's stance on Gaza, which sadly the generals have also been supporting....

Lets see. Islamist Egyptians don't like Hamas in Gaza. More secular military don't like Hamas in Gaza. Think that might have to do with what Hamas does in Gaza?

And he'll complain about Hamas, who were democratically elected because he doesn't like them.

I don't know about fuji's opinion but the moment that Hamas used their military to steal executive power in Gaza, they no longer have any claims to being democratic. Even without that coup, their elected mandate expired years ago.