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The Defeaticrats

onthebottom

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December 19, 2005, 8:08 a.m.
The Defeaticrats
Of hearts and minds, at home and in Iraq.

By Mark Steyn

Hands up, everyone who thinks Iraq’s a quagmire.

Not the Iraqi people: According to the latest polls, 70 percent think “life is good,” and 69 percent are optimistic that things will get even better in the year ahead. For purposes of comparison, they took a similar poll in Europe a while back: In France, 29 percent said they were optimistic about the future; in Germany, 15 percent. Sixty-three percent of Iraqis say they feel “very safe” in their own neighborhoods, which is more than the residents of Clichy-sous-Bois can say.

Well, okay, those cheerful Iraqis are probably Shiites and Kurds and whatnot. How about the Sunnis? For a small minority group that held a disproportionate and repressive grip on power for decades, they’ve been getting a more solicitous press from Western “liberals” than the white Rhodesians or South Africa’s National party ever got. But it turns out, after their strategically disastrous decision to stay home in last January’s vote, the Sunnis are participating in Iraq’s democratic process in ever greater numbers.

Oh, okay, so the Shiites and Kurds and Sunnis are feeling chipper, but in the broader Middle East the disastrous neocon invasion has inflamed moderate Arab opinion against America. Well, it’s true the explosive Arab street finally exploded the other day — with 200,000 Jordanians protesting in Amman, waving angry banners and yelling, “Burn in hell, Rumsfeld,” and, “You are a coward, Bush.” Whoops, my mistake: They were yelling, “Burn in hell, Zarqawi,” and, “You are a coward, Zarqawi.” If you want to hear someone yelling, “You are a coward, Bush,” you’ve got to go to Cindy Sheehan’s stakeout. And, in fairness to the network news divisions, it may be because so many of their camera crews have taken up permanent residence at the otherwise underpopulated Camp Cindy that they were unable to cover what was the largest demonstration against terrorism ever seen on the streets of the Middle East.

Oh, well. So the Shiites and Kurds and Sunni Iraqis and the Arab street are all on board, but come on, what about the insurgents? Everybody knows they’re winning . . . but, er, apparently they don’t. The Baathist diehard insurgents have split from the foreign al-Qaeda insurgents. While the latter denounced the Iraqi election as “a Satanic project,” the Saddamite remnants urged Sunnis to participate and said they’d protect polling stations from attacks by the foreign terrorists so that citizens could vote for their approved candidates (the leftover bits of Uday and Qusay, now running on the Psychotic Dictatorship Nostalgia Party ticket). This division between the foreign nutcakes and the domestic nutcakes is the biggest strategic split over the insurgency since Joe Lieberman respectfully distanced himself from Nancy Pelosi. . .

OTB
 

red

you must be fk'n kid'g me
Nov 13, 2001
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i think its wonderful the american public has spent $100 plus billion dollars to improve the lives of the people of iraq.
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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red said:
i think its wonderful the american public has spent $100 plus billion dollars to improve the lives of the people of iraq.
I assume you are excluding the ones that died in the process.
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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onthebottom said:
December 19, 2005, 8:08 a.m.
The Defeaticrats
Of hearts and minds, at home and in Iraq.

By Mark Steyn

Hands up, everyone who thinks Iraq’s a quagmire.

Not the Iraqi people: According to the latest polls, 70 percent think “life is good,” and 69 percent are optimistic that things will get even better in the year ahead. For purposes of comparison, they took a similar poll in Europe a while back: In France, 29 percent said they were optimistic about the future; in Germany, 15 percent. Sixty-three percent of Iraqis say they feel “very safe” in their own neighborhoods, which is more than the residents of Clichy-sous-Bois can say.

Well, okay, those cheerful Iraqis are probably Shiites and Kurds and whatnot. How about the Sunnis? For a small minority group that held a disproportionate and repressive grip on power for decades, they’ve been getting a more solicitous press from Western “liberals” than the white Rhodesians or South Africa’s National party ever got. But it turns out, after their strategically disastrous decision to stay home in last January’s vote, the Sunnis are participating in Iraq’s democratic process in ever greater numbers.

Oh, okay, so the Shiites and Kurds and Sunnis are feeling chipper, but in the broader Middle East the disastrous neocon invasion has inflamed moderate Arab opinion against America. Well, it’s true the explosive Arab street finally exploded the other day — with 200,000 Jordanians protesting in Amman, waving angry banners and yelling, “Burn in hell, Rumsfeld,” and, “You are a coward, Bush.” Whoops, my mistake: They were yelling, “Burn in hell, Zarqawi,” and, “You are a coward, Zarqawi.” If you want to hear someone yelling, “You are a coward, Bush,” you’ve got to go to Cindy Sheehan’s stakeout. And, in fairness to the network news divisions, it may be because so many of their camera crews have taken up permanent residence at the otherwise underpopulated Camp Cindy that they were unable to cover what was the largest demonstration against terrorism ever seen on the streets of the Middle East.

Oh, well. So the Shiites and Kurds and Sunni Iraqis and the Arab street are all on board, but come on, what about the insurgents? Everybody knows they’re winning . . . but, er, apparently they don’t. The Baathist diehard insurgents have split from the foreign al-Qaeda insurgents. While the latter denounced the Iraqi election as “a Satanic project,” the Saddamite remnants urged Sunnis to participate and said they’d protect polling stations from attacks by the foreign terrorists so that citizens could vote for their approved candidates (the leftover bits of Uday and Qusay, now running on the Psychotic Dictatorship Nostalgia Party ticket). This division between the foreign nutcakes and the domestic nutcakes is the biggest strategic split over the insurgency since Joe Lieberman respectfully distanced himself from Nancy Pelosi. . .

OTB
You know that the article is fishy, when it postulates that life is better in Iraq than in france. The envy the americans have for France is, while understandable and well placed, pityful.
 

arclighter

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Nov 25, 2005
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danmand said:
You know that the article is fishy, when it postulates that life is better in Iraq than in france. The envy the americans have for France is, while understandable and well placed, pityful.
Throw out that crack pipe.
 
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danmand said:
You know that the article is fishy, when it postulates that life is better in Iraq than in france. The envy the americans have for France is, while understandable and well placed, pityful.
Reality doesn't fit in with your pre-conceived views? Hence fishy.

Basically sums up your position.

Next!
 

onthebottom

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red said:
i think its wonderful the american public has spent $100 plus billion dollars to improve the lives of the people of iraq.
While I'm sure you're being sarcastic I'd agree with your statement.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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danmand said:
You know that the article is fishy, when it postulates that life is better in Iraq than in france. The envy the americans have for France is, while understandable and well placed, pityful.
I've never meet an American that "envy"s France.... not one.

OTB
 

red

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onthebottom said:
While I'm sure you're being sarcastic I'd agree with your statement.

OTB
actually I am not being sarcastic, but I do find it amusing that republicans are the nation builders.
 

Corey

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Mark Steyn's pretty brave for a guy who hides in the woods like Ted Kaczynski.

I'd like to see him report from the front lines like Robert Fisk.
 

The Mugger

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onthebottom said:
December 19, 2005, 8:08 a.m.
The Defeaticrats
Of hearts and minds, at home and in Iraq.

By Mark Steyn

Hands up, everyone who thinks Iraq’s a quagmire.

Not the Iraqi people: According to the latest polls, 70 percent think “life is good,” and 69 percent are optimistic that things will get even better in the year ahead. For purposes of comparison, they took a similar poll in Europe a while back: In France, 29 percent said they were optimistic about the future; in Germany, 15 percent. Sixty-three percent of Iraqis say they feel “very safe” in their own neighborhoods, which is more than the residents of Clichy-sous-Bois can say.

[/b]

OTB
Still spouting the Party line - or should I say that Cheney/Bush are doing your thinking. Most of the Dems seem to be saying, "We need to complete this strategy, Iraq, and then get out as soon as possible." Even Pelosi has not called for a surrender, rather she has taken the position of Muria which is nothing like surrender. Other than Dean, I really don't think many leaders of the Dems are saying it's time to admit defeat and surrender.

Really you conservatives got to get past this, "If you don't agree with us 110% then you must be a traitor." It's thinking like that gets countries in to huge mess.
 
May 3, 2004
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The Mugger said:
Still spouting the Party line - or should I say that Cheney/Bush are doing your thinking. Most of the Dems seem to be saying, "We need to complete this strategy, Iraq, and then get out as soon as possible." Even Pelosi has not called for a surrender, rather she has taken the position of Muria which is nothing like surrender. Other than Dean, I really don't think many leaders of the Dems are saying it's time to admit defeat and surrender.

Really you conservatives got to get past this, "If you don't agree with us 110% then you must be a traitor." It's thinking like that gets countries in to huge mess.
Sorry Mugger, though you are one of my favorite posters, I don't believe OTB is spouting the Party line. He is basically providing evidence in contrast to the contrary view of the majority of Dems. who have engaged in "debate" over the War. There is plenty of evidence of Dems, engaging in the politics of doom and gloom with the war.

There is no clear, concise voice speaking on behalf of the Dems. regarding the shape and future of the war. Murtha's position is to disengage completely within 6 months irregardless of conditions on the ground. And to re-deploy a force of 50,000 troops in Kuwait to deal with Iraq.

Does Murtha's position adequately address the consequences of a "power vacuum" that will be fought over in Iraq once security forces are removed?
Most observers say it does not.
 

james t kirk

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Funny thing about Iraq.

If Saddam had never attacked Kuwait in 91, I would bet everything I own that Bush and co. would be touting him as a piller of democracy in the middle east.

Hypocrisy is alive and well.
 
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james t kirk said:
Funny thing about Iraq.

If Saddam had never attacked Kuwait in 91, I would bet everything I own that Bush and co. would be touting him as a piller of democracy in the middle east.

Hypocrisy is alive and well.
If you did, you would be broke, on welfare and unable to afford SPs.
 

arclighter

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Nov 25, 2005
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james t kirk said:
Funny thing about Iraq.

If Saddam had never attacked Kuwait in 91, I would bet everything I own that Bush and co. would be touting him as a piller of democracy in the middle east.

Hypocrisy is alive and well.
Point of parliamentary procedure. You were O.K until you mentioned hypocrisy. For Bush to be a hypocrite, your speculation would have to be reality. Your fantasy can't possibly be proven which therefore makes your hypocrisy claim irrelevant.

It is interesting to note that the removal of Saddam became official US policy under the Clinton administration in 1998 with the passage of the Iraq Liberation Act. Another fun, fun, fact!
 

assoholic

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..and yet still the vast majority of Iraquis want the US out, yup, facts are facts.
Within a year the new Parliament will be telling the US to get out, thats when this thing will really get interesting and potentially dwarf Nam in size if the US tries to play games and stay.
 

arclighter

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assoholic said:
..and yet still the vast majority of Iraquis want the US out, yup, facts are facts.
Within a year the new Parliament will be telling the US to get out, thats when this thing will really get interesting and potentially dwarf Nam in size if the US tries to play games and stay.
Always next year with you guys. Whatever. If their elected government asks us to leave, we will leave. Polls can be very misleading, but a clear directive from a sovereign nation isn't.
 
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