The climate-change travesty

onthebottom

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While I'm sure many of the post below will be shooting the messanger, I'd ask you to shoot two birds with one stone:

1) speak to the numbers Will uses in his column
2) prove me wrong that liberals can do/understand math

OTB

The climate-change travesty

By George F. Will

Sunday, December 6, 2009

With 20,000 delegates, advocates and journalists jetting to Copenhagen for planet Earth's last chance, the carbon footprint of the global warming summit will be the only impressive consequence of the climate-change meeting. Its organizers had hoped that it would produce binding caps on emissions, global taxation to redistribute trillions of dollars, and micromanagement of everyone's choices.

China, nimble at the politics of pretending that is characteristic of climate-change theater, promises only to reduce its "carbon intensity" -- carbon emissions per unit of production. So China's emissions will rise.

Barack Obama, understanding the histrionics required in climate-change debates, promises that U.S. emissions in 2050 will be 83 percent below 2005 levels. If so, 2050 emissions will equal those in 1910, when there were 92 million Americans. But there will be 420 million Americans in 2050, so Obama's promise means that per capita emissions then will be about what they were in 1875. That. Will. Not. Happen.

Disclosure of e-mails and documents from the Climate Research Unit (CRU) in Britain -- a collaborator with the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change -- reveals some scientists' willingness to suppress or massage data and rig the peer-review process and the publication of scholarly work. The CRU materials also reveal paranoia on the part of scientists who believe that in trying to engineer "consensus" and alarm about warming, they are a brave and embattled minority. Actually, never in peacetime history has the government-media-academic complex been in such sustained propagandistic lockstep about any subject.

The Post learns an odd lesson from the CRU materials: "Climate scientists should not let themselves be goaded by the irresponsibility of the deniers into overstating the certainties of complex science or, worse, censoring discussion of them." These scientists overstated and censored because they were "goaded" by skepticism?

Were their science as unassailable as they insist it is, and were the consensus as broad as they say it is, and were they as brave as they claim to be, they would not be "goaded" into intellectual corruption. Nor would they meretriciously bandy the word "deniers" to disparage skepticism that shocks communicants in the faith-based global warming community.

Skeptics about the shrill certitudes concerning catastrophic man-made warming are skeptical because climate change is constant: From millennia before the Medieval Warm Period (800 to 1300), through the Little Ice Age (1500 to 1850), and for millennia hence, climate change is always a 100 percent certainty. Skeptics doubt that the scientists' models, which cannot explain the present, infallibly map the distant future.

The Financial Times' peculiar response to the CRU materials is: The scientific case for alarm about global warming "is growing more rather than less compelling." If so, then could anything make the case less compelling? A CRU e-mail says: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment" -- this "moment" is in its second decade -- "and it is a travesty that we can't."

The travesty is the intellectual arrogance of the authors of climate-change models partially based on the problematic practice of reconstructing long-term prior climate changes. On such models we are supposed to wager trillions of dollars -- and substantially diminished freedom.

Some climate scientists compound their delusions of intellectual adequacy with messiah complexes. They seem to suppose themselves a small clerisy entrusted with the most urgent truth ever discovered. On it, and hence on them, the planet's fate depends. So some of them consider it virtuous to embroider facts, exaggerate certitudes, suppress inconvenient data, and manipulate the peer-review process to suppress scholarly dissent and, above all, to declare that the debate is over.

Consider the sociology of science, the push and pull of interests, incentives, appetites and passions. Governments' attempts to manipulate Earth's temperature now comprise one of the world's largest industries. Tens of billions of dollars are being dispensed, as by the U.S. Energy Department, which has suddenly become, in effect, a huge venture capital operation, speculating in green technologies. Political, commercial, academic and journalistic prestige and advancement can be contingent on not disrupting the (postulated) consensus that is propelling the gigantic and fabulously lucrative industry of combating global warming.

Copenhagen is the culmination of the post-Kyoto maneuvering by people determined to fix the world's climate by breaking the world's -- especially America's -- population to the saddle of ever-more-minute supervision by governments. But Copenhagen also is prologue for the 2010 climate change summit in Mexico City, which will be planet Earth's last chance, until the next one.
 

toguy5252

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People who have already made up their mid about global warming can hadly contain their glee at finding these stolen e-mails. The sense of validation and self-congratulation is palpable. What they fail to look at is the actual statements that were made in the e-mails which do very little to suggest that the science is real and overwhelming. at worst they can be accused of spinning the results in a manner which makes them more compelling. there is no suggestion that they changes the science in any material or substantive way.

In typical fashion with the GOP and their ilk when facts and science fail latch onto a red hearing and keep repeating it. Pretty pathetic but typical.
 

onthebottom

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People who have already made up their mid about global warming can hadly contain their glee at finding these stolen e-mails. The sense of validation and self-congratulation is palpable. What they fail to look at is the actual statements that were made in the e-mails which do very little to suggest that the science is real and overwhelming. at worst they can be accused of spinning the results in a manner which makes them more compelling. there is no suggestion that they changes the science in any material or substantive way.

In typical fashion with the GOP and their ilk when facts and science fail latch onto a red hearing and keep repeating it. Pretty pathetic but typical.
So you support science that is hostile to peer review and sees no reason to keep the raw data so that their models can be evaluated?

I think what the climate-gate controversy exposes is the extent to which supporters of global warming policy will lie to get what they "know" to be true out...... That's politics and PR, not science.

OTB
 

toguy5252

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So you support science that is hostile to peer review and sees no reason to keep the raw data so that their models can be evaluated?

I think what the climate-gate controversy exposes is the extent to which supporters of global warming policy will lie to get what they "know" to be true out...... That's politics and PR, not science.

OTB
How can it be that they are hostile to peer review when the overwhelming consensus in the scientific community supports the science. Your statement is nonsensical. I suppose that you will not be happy with any peer review unless the group includes Senator Inhoffer.
 

themexi

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at worst they can be accused of spinning the results in a manner which makes them more compelling. there is no suggestion that they changes the science in any material or substantive way.
So it's cool then that they hyped a phenomenon that could actually await further, more thoughtful study to figure out practical solutions (if any) into an immediate armeggeddonlike calamity that scares people into all sorts of irrational, kneejerk "solutions" that all suspiciously involve more taxes & less freedom??????? .... Riiiiiight

"Sexing up" data to Inciting an unnecessary panic AND attempting to stifle reasoned debate that might allow for cooler heads to prevail MOST DEFINITELY CHANGES THE "SCIENCE" IN A VERY MATERIAL & SUBSTANTIVE WAY!!!

It. Is. FRAUD! Plain & simple..... Making something seem far worse than it actually is is just as bad as lying outright.

If you call the cops saying there was a murder to get them to come to your house faster when you have only suffered a break-in will get you CHARGED WITH A CRIME in many cases.

Calling the fire department claiming your house & yard are on fire to get them to come quicker when your neighbor has a burn barrel going is just as wrong....


One of the MAJOR aspects of dealing with any crisis is PRIORITIZING..... If you fudge the info just so you can get Your pet issue to jump the queue YOU ARE WRONG! Think about all the damage that has been done & resources wasted if this Doesn't turn out to be that big or immediate a threat.


Give your fucking head a shake.
 

Brill

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Think about all the damage that has been done & resources wasted if this Doesn't turn out to be that big or immediate a threat.
What would be the damage done if we reduced emissions? What resources would be wasted?
 

toguy5252

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So it's cool then that they hyped a phenomenon that could actually await further, more thoughtful study to figure out practical solutions (if any) into an immediate armeggeddonlike calamity that scares people into all sorts of irrational, kneejerk "solutions" that all suspiciously involve more taxes & less freedom??????? .... Riiiiiight

"Sexing up" data to Inciting an unnecessary panic AND attempting to stifle reasoned debate that might allow for cooler heads to prevail MOST DEFINITELY CHANGES THE "SCIENCE" IN A VERY MATERIAL & SUBSTANTIVE WAY!!!

It. Is. FRAUD! Plain & simple..... Making something seem far worse than it actually is is just as bad as lying outright.

If you call the cops saying there was a murder to get them to come to your house faster when you have only suffered a break-in will get you CHARGED WITH A CRIME in many cases.

Calling the fire department claiming your house & yard are on fire to get them to come quicker when your neighbor has a burn barrel going is just as wrong....


One of the MAJOR aspects of dealing with any crisis is PRIORITIZING..... If you fudge the info just so you can get Your pet issue to jump the queue YOU ARE WRONG! Think about all the damage that has been done & resources wasted if this Doesn't turn out to be that big or immediate a threat.


Give your fucking head a shake.
As usual you are missing the point. The science was not skewed. Read the e-mails. It was presented in a different way which made it simpler and more compelling.

Instead of focusing on the "resources wasted" and by that I take it you are referring to money, if this doesn't turn out to be the big threat etc. why dont you focus on the irreparable harm being done to the plant if it does. Are suggesting that everyone in Copenhagen is wrong and you know better than everyone there.

By the way i did give my fucking head a shake and i am still wondering why people keep trying to keep a debate which should have been over years ago alive.
 

onthebottom

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How can it be that they are hostile to peer review when the overwhelming consensus in the scientific community supports the science. Your statement is nonsensical. I suppose that you will not be happy with any peer review unless the group includes Senator Inhoffer.
If you read those memos they are hostile to scientists why are attempting to disagree with them..... these are not politicians but real scientist....

What scientist doesn't keep the raw data for an experiment / model. For me this is the most damning aspect of this little dust up.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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Still no math comments....

LOL

OTB
 

themexi

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As usual you are missing the point. The science was not skewed. Read the e-mails.
Pot-black. Next

The science was not skewed.
I never said skewed... I said hyped & exaggerated...


Read the e-mails.
I did. A LOT of them.... Did you?

It was presented in a different way which made it simpler and more compelling.
Ummmm.... that sounds like hype, not science.... Scientifically indisputable results like ANY other truth should NOT NEED HYPE...

Instead of focusing on the "resources wasted" and by that I take it you are referring to money,
Money isn't everything.... How about TIME? Lost opportunities? For example... If we weren't tricked into being so fixated on CARBON, valuable time & energy could have been allocated to REAL threats like sulfur dioxide, the Ozone layer, Mercury.... Basically.


why dont you focus on the irreparable harm being done to the plant if it does.
See above Genius.... I'd LOVE to address the irreparable harm done to the earth but you carbon fags are getting in the way of doing anything actually helpful.


Are suggesting that everyone in Copenhagen is wrong and you know better than everyone there.
Nope.... I'm pretty much on the same page as a lot of the Politicos @ Copenhagen..... This carbon sham is a GREAT way to suck in well meaning idiots like you .....

By the way i did give my fucking head a shake and i am still wondering why people keep trying to keep a debate which should have been over years ago alive.
SHAKE it HARDER!

Maybe we're keeping (not merely trying) the debate open because there's something to debate about.... If it was all so open & shut why did they need to hype it up so much???
 

toguy5252

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Pot-black. Next



I never said skewed... I said hyped & exaggerated...




I did. A LOT of them.... Did you?



Ummmm.... that sounds like hype, not science.... Scientifically indisputable results like ANY other truth should NOT NEED HYPE...



Money isn't everything.... How about TIME? Lost opportunities? For example... If we weren't tricked into being so fixated on CARBON, valuable time & energy could have been allocated to REAL threats like sulfur dioxide, the Ozone layer, Mercury.... Basically.




See above Genius.... I'd LOVE to address the irreparable harm done to the earth but you carbon fags are getting in the way of doing anything actually helpful.




Nope.... I'm pretty much on the same page as a lot of the Politicos @ Copenhagen..... This carbon sham is a GREAT way to suck in well meaning idiots like you .....



SHAKE it HARDER!

Maybe we're keeping (not merely trying) the debate open because there's something to debate about.... If it was all so open & shut why did they need to hype it up so much???
Your rhetoric has truly elevated the debate.

So now i take it that the real debate is not whether or not global warming is occurring but whether the source is carbon or other sources. I consider to an honor to be counted among the well meaning idiots in Copenhagen who are trying to stem a pending disaster as opposed to your group whose best form of debate is to insult the debater and to latch on to red hearings. Congratulation.
 

themexi

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Your rhetoric has truly elevated the debate./QUOTE]

Wouldn't take much.... You seem by your words to want to eliminate all debate altogether.

So now i take it that the real debate is not whether or not global warming is occurring but whether the source is carbon or other sources.
Ummmm no.... There is no debate that Earth's climate is constantly changing... Warm/cool, ect... Very well documented phenomenon.

What is up for debate are a Couple of things... Are man made Carbon emissions substantially contributing to climate change? & What should we put our energies into that will best serve to preserve a healthy habitat for ourselves & other life?

It IS debateable that man made carbon emissions contribute to climate change.... formerly hyped as global warming, then the new ice age... then global warming again... now settling on the noncommittal "climate change" so you all won't look quite so stupid so often.


Your rhetoric has truly elevated the debate.I consider to an honor to be counted among the well meaning idiots in Copenhagen who are trying to stem a pending disaster as opposed to your group whose best form of debate is to insult the debater and to latch on to red hearings. Congratulation.
Good for you.... I'd hate to think you & the other carbonfags are being such ninnies KNOWINGLY.... that would just be masochistic :)
 

danmand

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As usual you are missing the point. The science was not skewed. Read the e-mails. It was presented in a different way which made it simpler and more compelling.

Instead of focusing on the "resources wasted" and by that I take it you are referring to money, if this doesn't turn out to be the big threat etc. why dont you focus on the irreparable harm being done to the plant if it does. Are suggesting that everyone in Copenhagen is wrong and you know better than everyone there.

By the way i did give my fucking head a shake and i am still wondering why people keep trying to keep a debate which should have been over years ago alive.
Don't be too hard on our OTB. It must be real hard to live in a world where all
the media is left wing and where scientists are trying their hardest to destroy
the old US.
 

Asterix

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It must be real hard to live in a world where all
the media is left wing and where scientists are trying their hardest to destroy
the old US.
You got it all wrong. He loves it.
 

danmand

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onthebottom

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Still no math, lot's of shooting the messenger.... how typical.

OTB
 

toguy5252

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Still no math, lot's of shooting the messenger.... how typical.

OTB
How could it be productive to keep repeating something which is simply wrong. Do you think that that myriad scientist who have come to the same conclusion each do so in isolation and without sharing any information ot science or math. Why are you fixated with that silliness. Is this another huge worldwide conspiracy. The science and the math is readily available.
 

toguy5252

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Your rhetoric has truly elevated the debate./QUOTE]

Wouldn't take much.... You seem by your words to want to eliminate all debate altogether.

Well that would be correct if you simply ignore everything I have written. there is a debate as to the extent to which carbon emissions have contributed to the problem, the solution to the problem, the extent of the problem etc. The scientific community has reached a consensus as the existence of the effect. Simply misstating science or diverting attention with e-mails which other than on soine superficial basis are pretty innocuous does not further the debate.

Ummmm no.... There is no debate that Earth's climate is constantly changing... Warm/cool, ect... Very well documented phenomenon.

What is up for debate are a Couple of things... Are man made Carbon emissions substantially contributing to climate change? & What should we put our energies into that will best serve to preserve a healthy habitat for ourselves & other life?

It IS debateable that man made carbon emissions contribute to climate change.... formerly hyped as global warming, then the new ice age... then global warming again... now settling on the noncommittal "climate change" so you all won't look quite so stupid so often.

Again it is only debatable if you ignore the science and the scientists.


Good for you.... I'd hate to think you & the other carbonfags are being such ninnies KNOWINGLY.... that would just be masochistic :)
I am trying to remember is that one of the debating strategies suggested by Socrates. I must have missed that lecture. You should be proud,
 

onthebottom

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How could it be productive to keep repeating something which is simply wrong. Do you think that that myriad scientist who have come to the same conclusion each do so in isolation and without sharing any information ot science or math. Why are you fixated with that silliness. Is this another huge worldwide conspiracy. The science and the math is readily available.
And the math says the planet has not warmed over the last decade.....

Did you read:

Barack Obama, understanding the histrionics required in climate-change debates, promises that U.S. emissions in 2050 will be 83 percent below 2005 levels. If so, 2050 emissions will equal those in 1910, when there were 92 million Americans. But there will be 420 million Americans in 2050, so Obama's promise means that per capita emissions then will be about what they were in 1875.

Does this make sense to you?

OTB
 
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