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Ten Commandments for Arab and Jew at war

DATYdude

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Oct 8, 2003
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This is what I'm talking about when I say to the extremists here that they are clearly full of crap when thet see one side as always wrong and the other as always right:

Ten Commandments for Arab and Jew at war

By Bradley Burston

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/963200.html

There is no conflict in the world more complex, more closely watched, and more historically intractable than the war between Israel and its Arab neighbors, a tireless blood feud now on the threshold of its seventh decade.

It helps little that each side lays claim to ultimate morality and consummate victimhood.

For Palestinian Muslim and Israeli Jew both, many of the most strident calls for escalation, for war until absolute victory, for refusal to compromise, for justifying injury to civilians on the other side, in fact, for eradication, political or physical, of the other side, come from ultra-nationalist religious leaders.
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With radicalism at the clerical level having tainted and to some extent warped both Islam and Judaism, perhaps now is the time for the rest of us believers to put in our two cents.

Herewith, a first draft: Ten Commandments for the Arab and Jew at war:


1. Thou shalt not kill the civilian

Period.

Never target the innocent. In all armed operations and activities, make heroic efforts to respect non-combatants.

Marshal your ingenuity and skill and technical proficiency to avoid injury to children, the elderly, and all who are unarmed. If civilians on the other side are injured, investigate at once, thoroughly and impartially, and, where warranted, punish those responsible.

In populated areas, stop the use of weapons whose inaccuracy and/or lethal force, including Qassams, Kartyushas, main battle tanks, heavy artillery, fighter-bombers, flechettes, and cluster bombs, place civilians in direct danger.

2. Neither shall you use civilians as human shields.

Never launch attacks from populated civilian residences. Never use populated civilian residences as hideouts or firing platforms.

Protect civilians on your side from attack in any way possible. If the other side uses missiles against civilian areas, use all means at your command to keep civilians from harm's way.

If non-combatants are likely to become targets, find ways to shelter them, evacuate them, or ways to stop missiles before they strike.

3. Thou shalt not worship the use of force, nor mistake revenge for self-defense, nor confuse politically motivated attacks with justice, nor believe with perfect faith that military might, carried to an extreme, will resolve the conflict.

Be not deluded that your political ends will be served by the instruments of war.

Be not persuaded that the state you despise will bend to your will in deference to rockets, mortars, suicide bombings, roadside bombings, school shootings and drive-by shootings.

Be not convinced that assassination, invasion, occupation, enforced oppression, deepened poverty, blockade, strafing, bombing, shelling, raiding, and/or besiegement, will topple the government you revile.


4. Thou shalt not practice humiliation, nor collective punishment

Demonstrate respect.

Remove all checkpoints except those which can be demonstrated to be absolutely necessary. Reduce friction as much as possible at remaining checkpoints. Do everything possible to allow civilians on the other side to work, pray, study, and live as normally as possible.

The people on the other side are every ounce as proud and as obstinate as contrary and as immovable as you.

Turn off their lights and their gas, and they will hate you in the cold and dark. You, and not the people you want them to hate.

Rocket them, bomb them, gun them down, and they will do everything in their power to remain on the land you claim, give you nothing more, and see that things stay that way.

5. Thou shalt not dismiss ceasefire proposals out of hand.

Nor shall you turn aside diplomatic overtures, nor order military operations to foil them.

6. Thou shalt not demolish homes.


Demolition of Palestinian homes is not a tactic. It is a form of terrorism. It does not create deterrence. It fosters hatred. It incites against peace. It engenders revenge.

7. Thou shalt raze illegal outposts.
Be not deceived that this contradicts the previous commandment. Be not taken in by those who view illegal outposts as the highest form of patriotism. Take it for what it is, in the following light:

8. Thou shalt act to restrain the renegades in your midst, terrorists, bigots and bullies, whose actions betray their own people.

9. Thou shalt not aim to "close an account."

No military action in the Holy Land ever settled the score or closed a standing account. Military action only opens a new account.

10. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain

The clergyman - rabbi, reverend or imam ? who counsels hatred for the other, who preaches that the Lord is on the side of wider and deeper war, is not a man of God.

The man of the cloth who dismisses the beliefs of the other, the history of the other, the validity of the other's faith-based claim to this land, is not a man of God.

The spiritual leader who forbids all compromise leads his followers to ruin.

We are, in this Holy Land, Muslim, Christian, and Jew, all of us children of the same Lord, servants of the same God, every one of us the image of our one Creator.

The preacher who preaches otherwise, he who worships at the altar of force and disdains the possibility of accommodation, condemns all of us to an eternity of war.

God help us, every one.
 

Kang

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Aug 26, 2006
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Could we just sprinkle plutonium over the whole middle east? Maybe give them a year or two's worth of a head's up so anyone who wants to can get the hell out of there.

After a century or two they can try this whole "civilization" thing again.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Don, I think the authour's (and I'll assume DATY's) opinion is that the both sides should be following them. Many of the points are only relevant to Israel such as collective punishment and outposts (actually the majority of the points are directed at Israeli actions).

Ha'aretz is well known to be a leftist paper in Israel that routinely has articles condemning Israeli action. Don't assume that just because DATY defends Israel that he is blind to it's flaws.
 

DATYdude

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DonQuixote said:
Those are admirable rules of engagement.

The issue is whether they are being followed by
the military and police. Do you agree or disagree
that the Palestians have suffered multiples of
fatalities of its noncombatant civilians than have
the Israelis?

If so, explain why.
I agree. The simple answer comes from Hamas itself:


Following are excerpts from a speech delivered by Hamas MP Fathi Hammad, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 29, 2008.

Fathi Hammad: [The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

Do you need more of an explanation?

Why would anyone make decisions about who is right by looking merely at how many people are killed on each side? Ok whoever has killed more people is wrong/whoever has lost more is right. ???

Do I really need to point this out?
 

DATYdude

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DonQuixote said:
The extreme Palestinian militants take that stand.

I doubt the noncombatant Palestinians are of the
same opinion. They are like any other people caught
in the middle of a military struggle.

If you have anything to support the claim that the
majority of Palestinians are of the same mind as
Hamas or the other militant cells please provide
the source.

It is my opinion the majority of Palestinian and
Israeli civilians are caught in the crossfire of
this conflict.
Yeah you're probably right that most people want to live, not die, but I do read about regular polls of Palestinians and Israelis (the "Peace Index") and while there is ebb and flow, there is solid support among Palestinians for seemingly extreme positions. I see the polls on Haaretz from time to time, will post when I see another.

One thing I don't doubt is that lack of a political "horizon" or improvements on the ground is eroding support for peace more than support for Hamas (which are both waning among Pals).

Grim.
 

wadsab

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DonQuixote said:
It is my opinion the majority of Palestinian and Israeli civilians are caught in the crossfire of this conflict.
You are dead wrong, as always!! It is the majority of Palestinians who brought hammas to power, and created all this mess. Please stop all the deception and spinning!!!
 

DATYdude

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Well just because we vote for one party doesn't mean we support everything they say and do, nor do we know what they will do once in power.

A lot of people thought Hamas would lose the election badly, so maybe some people voted for Hamas as a protest vote against Fatah corruption.

Some people probably voted because they like Hamas' more "religious" view (I can't believe I'm saying that!).

I can say that Hamas uses scare tactics to supress political opposition (so rare in the Arab world!), and I'd bet that lot of people would protest against Hamas's inability to improve the daily lives of Gazans. A lot of people were shocked at how bloody Hamas's takeover of Gaza from Fatah/PA, I read that people wer thrown out of buildings, other crazy shit. Hamas lost popularity then for sure.

But of course if you're not a combatant you FEEL caught in the crossfire, even if you've supported the perpetrators of violence.
 

cypherpunk

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wadsab said:
You are dead wrong, as always!! It is the majority of Palestinians who brought hammas to power, and created all this mess. Please stop all the deception and spinning!!!
Yeah. And most of the Israelis tolerate their government's actions. I'll bet there's not more than 100 real victims in the whole lot.
 

Cinema Face

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The Middle Kingdom
Rules of engagement for the Middle East. Whata Joke!

11. Thou shalt do whatever it takes to win your cause. All other considerations are secondary.
 

basketcase

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DATYdude said:
... Hamas lost popularity then for sure....
Although some sources say otherwise (as would common sense) Hamas seems to be doing pretty well in terms of public opinion. Fatah is even fearful of the shift in public opinion in the West Bank, enough so that one faction has pushed Abbas to (re)endorse "armed resistance" as a means of regaining the public favour.

This would seem to reinforce the belief that a significant proportion of the Palestinian population think violence is the best path (either that or think that the party trying to make peace is incompetent).

sources
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2007/p26e1.html
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2008/politicsjan08.html
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2560
 

basketcase

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DonQuixote said:
Hamas only controls Gaza and not the West Bank.

Its more than a militant group. It also provides
social services and security for the territory.
...
Is this supposed to be a politics lesson professor, stating facts that all are aware of (though I have no idea how someone could classify what they bring to Gaza as security - policing maybe)?

Hamas does have influence and members in both Gaza and the West Bank. There is a belief that if Israel withdrew from the WB, Hamas might have the force needed to take over parts, if not the whole. The West Bank is a reportedly less religiously influenced than Gaza but there are many who see either the desire for revenge or the corruption Fatah is viewed with as a reason to support Hamas (as would be expected, much of this support is within the refugee camps-though I never understood why these camps still exist since it was West Bank Palestinians who forced the refugees from pre '49 Israel to live in them).
 

gryfin

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His commitment to this code was rather insincere.

Consider this quote posted after starting this thread.


DATYdude said:
What's even more shocking is that ANYONE in the western world continues to care at all about the Palestinians. Lord knows the more stuff I read by gryfin, Cinelli, and persis, the more I think two weeks and a few hundred bulldozers is the only solution.
 

gryfin

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DonQuixote said:
Hamas only controls Gaza and not the West Bank.

Its more than a militant group. It also provides
social services and security for the territory.

http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=8501

The author describes both factions as relying on
the same tactics and policies to stay in power. I
know the site has an agenda but the author does
make several valid points.
Very good article. Should be required reading.

The degree to which Israel has helped foment Fatah corruption is astounding. It included making secret payments (and secret Bank Leumi accounts) to Arafat for years, including while they surrounded his Presidential compound.
 

DATYdude

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gryfin said:
Very good article. Should be required reading.

The degree to which Israel has helped foment Fatah corruption is astounding. It included making secret payments (and secret Bank Leumi accounts) to Arafat for years, including while they surrounded his Presidential compound.
You make me frustrated and sad. Everything is Israel's fault, including Fatah corruption. No Palestinian responsibility for Palestinian problems. Your inability to see it any other way makes me lose my belief that peace is possible.

Do you have any comment on the article or can you only stir up shit? The smell is getting to me.
 

gryfin

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DATYdude said:
You make me frustrated and sad. Everything is Israel's fault, including Fatah corruption. No Palestinian responsibility for Palestinian problems. Your inability to see it any other way makes me lose my belief that peace is possible.

Do you have any comment on the article or can you only stir up shit? The smell is getting to me.
Because telling the truth about what Israel does will help bring about peace. It's an essential component of moving forward.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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And how is subjecting Israel to 100% of the blame supposed to bring peace? Since I don't expect you to answer, all it will do is to harden Israeli opinion and therefore Palestinian opinion to the point where each side has no one who has empathy for the other side. If this is your goal, go ahead and work on it.

Any sensible person (or any expert on conflict resolution) sees it differently. Both (all) sides have to recognize how their actions have had a negative effect before working towards a middle ground.

For years Israel has been subjected to people like you who are looking for anything to attack, no matter how small or inconsequential that they have pretty much shut their ears to idiotic haters.

You might have some credibility if you ever criticized even the samllest thing about Israel's declared enemies.
 

DATYdude

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The whole point of this thread was to show and invite comment on an article that seems to tell the truth about BOTH sides. I'd rather gryfin just stayed away from the thread if he has nothing to add but his hate.
 

gryfin

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DATYdude said:
The whole point of this thread was to show and invite comment on an article that seems to tell the truth about BOTH sides. I'd rather gryfin just stayed away from the thread if he has nothing to add but his hate.

Actually, it was yours I added.
 

DATYdude

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My hate is only of your position, which makes me lose hope when I forget that you're mission is to spread lies about and hate for Israel.
 

gryfin

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DATYdude said:
My hate is only of your position, which makes me lose hope when I forget that you're mission is to spread lies about and hate for Israel.
Everything I've cited is documented. I make sure of it before I post. If you despair, it's for the side you've chosen to support. Stop projecting.
 
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