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onthebottom

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I can think of a couple reasons why teachers wouldn't want pay tied to standardized tests.

1) Students performance often is affected by parenting. Parents with money and pay for tutors will generally have kids who do better than kids with single parents and who have to work many hours. Tying pay to performance means teachers working with kids who need more help will end up getting paid less.

2) The US has already had decades of schools and boards being funded on the same basis. The result was schools pushing students to learn the test rather than get educated. There have also been plenty of cases where principals instructed teachers to cheat (this was discussed in one of the freakanomics books).

3) What is actually assessed on standardized tests? Are they actually measuring how well prepared students are being for life or is it how well they memorize insignificant facts? Thankfully this stuff wasn't introduced in Ontario until I was through school. That said, the idea behind Ontario's literacy test is good since basic literacy is a skill that will benefit everyone but from what I've been told, the test keeps getting easier so that the politicians can brag about the improvements they implemented; which brings me to...

4) The tests seem to be used as a political tool rather than to improve the lives of students. So is the drive to go after teachers to win votes. Education in Ontario is defined by the government. Education is even more directly controlled by politicians in the US. No matter what you think of teachers the whole drive is about politicians trying to make themselves look good and I'm sure most people rate politicians as less trustworthy than teachers.
 
basketcase said:
I can think of a couple reasons why teachers wouldn't want pay tied to standardized tests.

1) Students performance often is affected by parenting. Parents with money and pay for tutors will generally have kids who do better than kids with single parents and who have to work many hours. Tying pay to performance means teachers working with kids who need more help will end up getting paid less.

2) The US has already had decades of schools and boards being funded on the same basis. The result was schools pushing students to learn the test rather than get educated. There have also been plenty of cases where principals instructed teachers to cheat (this was discussed in one of the freakanomics books).

3) What is actually assessed on standardized tests? Are they actually measuring how well prepared students are being for life or is it how well they memorize insignificant facts? Thankfully this stuff wasn't introduced in Ontario until I was through school. That said, the idea behind Ontario's literacy test is good since basic literacy is a skill that will benefit everyone but from what I've been told, the test keeps getting easier so that the politicians can brag about the improvements they implemented; which brings me to...

4) The tests seem to be used as a political tool rather than to improve the lives of students. So is the drive to go after teachers to win votes. Education in Ontario is defined by the government. Education is even more directly controlled by politicians in the US. No matter what you think of teachers the whole drive is about politicians trying to make themselves look good and I'm sure most people rate politicians as less trustworthy than teachers.
Click to expand...

I think the goal is accountability - you can't manage what you can't measure.

Teachers are incredibly spoiled, they don't want to be subject to real measures, though questions, dismissals....
 
onthebottom said:
I think the goal is accountability - you can't manage what you can't measure.

Teachers are incredibly spoiled, they don't want to be subject to real measures, though questions, dismissals....
Click to expand...

I notice you didn't respond to any of the points I made about why the tests do little for education. I guess you are more concerned with 'spoiled' teachers than you are with accountability. I also find it interesting that you find American teachers spoiled when they average only $56,000.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...15/how-much-teachers-get-paid-state-by-state/

The article you posted starts talking about evaluating teachers and then jumps to students writing standardized tests. The issue is that standardized tests indicate how well students do at regurgitating info, not how well teachers are educating. It also mentions that some teachers considered to be good by schools, parents, and students have students who don't do as well. I would suggest that many of those teachers actually teach kids, not just prepare them for a test.

Of course if you think standardized testing is THE marker, I guess you support Ontario teachers getting rewarded since results on standardized testing has been going up.
 
basketcase said:
I notice you didn't respond to any of the points I made about why the tests do little for education. I guess you are more concerned with 'spoiled' teachers than you are with accountability. I also find it interesting that you find American teachers spoiled when they average only $56,000.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...15/how-much-teachers-get-paid-state-by-state/

The article you posted starts talking about evaluating teachers and then jumps to students writing standardized tests. The issue is that standardized tests indicate how well students do at regurgitating info, not how well teachers are educating. It also mentions that some teachers considered to be good by schools, parents, and students have students who don't do as well. I would suggest that many of those teachers actually teach kids, not just prepare them for a test.

Of course if you think standardized testing is THE marker, I guess you support Ontario teachers getting rewarded since results on standardized testing has been going up.
Click to expand...

That is implying Ont teachers are underpaid which is a ridiculous assertion
The province is going deeper & deeper into debt to ensure they are in the top 5% of wage earners while working less than 90% of what everyone else does & receiving a retirement package the rest of us will forgo as we pay for thier excess.
And they prefer not to held accountable ??
 
JohnLarue said:
That is implying Ont teachers are underpaid which is a ridiculous assertion
The province is going deeper & deeper into debt to ensure they are in the top 5% of wage earners while working less than 90% of what everyone else does & receiving a retirement package the rest of us will forgo as we pay for thier excess.
And they prefer not to held accountable ??
Click to expand...

JohnLarue consistently appears hostile towards teachers. Maybe he did poorly in school or had a personality conflict with a teacher.
 
basketcase said:
I notice you didn't respond to any of the points I made about why the tests do little for education. I guess you are more concerned with 'spoiled' teachers than you are with accountability. I also find it interesting that you find American teachers spoiled when they average only $56,000.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...15/how-much-teachers-get-paid-state-by-state/

The article you posted starts talking about evaluating teachers and then jumps to students writing standardized tests. The issue is that standardized tests indicate how well students do at regurgitating info, not how well teachers are educating. It also mentions that some teachers considered to be good by schools, parents, and students have students who don't do as well. I would suggest that many of those teachers actually teach kids, not just prepare them for a test.

Of course if you think standardized testing is THE marker, I guess you support Ontario teachers getting rewarded since results on standardized testing has been going up.
Click to expand...

Your points were weak:

1) yes, parenting is by far the most important factor, perhaps we should move some of the resources we spend ($12k per student per year) on issues (two parent families for example) that will have a larger impact.

2) tests are good enough to give grades, grades and tests are good enough for college admission but they are too weak a measure to pay civil servants? All metrics are imperfect, but they are better than no metrics. Either you can do algebra or you can't - not much gray area there.

3) same answer as 2

4) parents and children have a right to know how students/schools are performing - what the outcomes are.
 
probyn said:
JohnLarue consistently appears hostile towards teachers. Maybe he did poorly in school or had a personality conflict with a teacher.
Click to expand...

No
I did quite well in school and value education more than most

There is no logical rational to pay teachers $85K for 9 1/2 months work & fund a retirement package which is in excess of what the average taxpayer will receive
Such compensation is irresponsible and extremely inappropriate when the province is borrowing excessively, health Care costs are going to increase exponentially and their is an excess supply of teacher candidates
We can not afford the Ontario Teachers union. It is just that plain and simple

The "he hates teachers" argument is just as weak and self serving as " He is jealous"
 
JohnLarue said:
That is implying Ont teachers are underpaid which is a ridiculous assertion
The province is going deeper & deeper into debt to ensure they are in the top 5% of wage earners while working less than 90% of what everyone else does & receiving a retirement package the rest of us will forgo as we pay for thier excess.
And they prefer not to held accountable ??
Click to expand...

One way to find out is out those jobs on the market and see what you have to pay for good teachers - I bet the prices don't go up.
 
JohnLarue said:
That is implying Ont teachers are underpaid which is a ridiculous assertion...
Click to expand...

Bot is the one saying teacher pay should be tied to standardized test results. Ontario results are going up so according to what he feels, Ontario teachers should get more pay.
 
basketcase said:
Bot is the one saying teacher pay should be tied to standardized test results. Ontario results are going up so according to what he feels, Ontario teachers should get more pay.
Click to expand...

That's pretty simplistic don't you think?

Interesting to me that unionized civil servants are so threatened by accountability.
 
JohnLarue said:
No
I did quite well in school and value education more than most

There is no logical rational to pay teachers $85K for 9 1/2 months work & fund a retirement package which is in excess of what the average taxpayer will receive
Such compensation is irresponsible and extremely inappropriate when the province is borrowing excessively, health Care costs are going to increase exponentially and their is an excess supply of teacher candidates
We can not afford the Ontario Teachers union. It is just that plain and simple

The "he hates teachers" argument is just as weak and self serving as " He is jealous"
Click to expand...

Education is an expensive institution, but it is your arguments that are weak and self serving.. The birth rate is declining significantly and immigration is not making a big dent in the decline. There simply is going to be far fewer children in school which means the cost for education is going to decline significantly. The Government simply will be spending significantly less on education.
 
probyn said:
Education is an expensive institution, but it is your arguments that are weak and self serving.. The birth rate is declining significantly and immigration is not making a big dent in the decline. There simply is going to be far fewer children in school which means the cost for education is going to decline significantly. The Government simply will be spending significantly less on education.
Click to expand...


But it is impossible to fire teachers,...they just spend tax dollars to get a government elected that will revise the ratio of teachers to students, still the same number of teachers/cost,...just less students.


And you forgot one important issue,...more teachers retired than actually teaching will cause their pension plan to crash, requiring the government to bale it out.

Mean while, they are still way over paid, and not performing,...math scores still going down.

FAST
 
basketcase said:
So now you are saying that standardized testing shouldn't determine pay? Which is it.
Click to expand...

I think it should be a component of teacher evaluations (which could include pay and dismissal), that says nothing about teachers being paid market rates... Again, simplistic.
 
basketcase said:
What a self-contradictory statement.
Click to expand...

Not at all, teachers could be paid twice market rates currently due to unions, that has nothing to do with making part of their compensation tied to performance.

John laurel thought increases were unwarranted not because performance was lacking in Ontario but because they were already paid above market rates.
 
onthebottom said:
Not at all, teachers could be paid twice market rates currently due to unions,
Click to expand...
Considering the average pay in the US is $56,000 it seems ridiculous that market rates would be below the poverty line.

Meanwhile, the article you posted discusses raises based on test performance, not 'market rates'.



p.s. I said it before, pay isn't the issue with teachers unions, it is getting rid of teachers who are dead weight.
 
probyn said:
Education is an expensive institution, but it is your arguments that are weak and self serving.. The birth rate is declining significantly and immigration is not making a big dent in the decline. There simply is going to be far fewer children in school which means the cost for education is going to decline significantly. The Government simply will be spending significantly less on education.
Click to expand...

Al the more reason to scale back on teachers pay to keep/reduce the cost per student at a reasonable and manageable level.
The pension plan will ensure the total amount spent will never decrease as you incorrectly assume
 
onthebottom said:
Not at all, teachers could be paid twice market rates currently due to unions, that has nothing to do with making part of their compensation tied to performance.

John laurel thought increases were unwarranted not because performance was lacking in Ontario but because they were already paid above market rates.
Click to expand...

I would welcome market rates and would accept higher costs if the market dictates it
However the union does not let markets forces determine a fair and competitive compensation & it never will
We can not afford the teachers union & their ongoing abuse of the taxpayer will lead to a lot pain in the future
 
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