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Teacher Appreciation Week? You've got to be joking!

mur11

New member
Dec 31, 2003
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you realize that we are accumulating debt to overpay all employees in the public sector
We are going to be in one big mess in a few years when the health care costs escalate and interest rates move up
I guess you will be able to sleep well knowing most teachers will have their future taken care of, while the rest of us have to deal with the mess via very painful tax increases

cops @ 100k are overpaid as well, however please do not equate teachers & police
1. Two wrongs do not make a right
2. Teachers do not put their lives on the line
3. Police do not use children as negotiating pawns
4. Cops do not take the summer off
5. Cops do not insists that they only deal with two or three crimes a day
Once again, whatever good points you have (and you do have them) is mitigated by the overwhelming hatred you have for teachers. You paint all teachers with the same brush.
First of all, yes the ban on extra-curriculars was unfortunate. There's a decent argument for the obligation that teachers actually have to participate in for these extra-curriculars, but that's a debate for another day.My point is that right now, the debate is rather moot since extra-curriculars are back on and running at all (or the overwhelming majority) of schools. Many teachers did not want to cancel extra-cirriculars and some participated in defiance of their union. They did it because far from your rigid beliefs, a wide number of teachers actually like their jobs and work hard for their salaries. Their leadership decided on this ban and while many teachers supported it and towed the union line, a number did not, even if they followed the union's mandate. To blame all teachers for the actions of their union, particularly since the mandate was not unanimous is absurd. Also, as a negotiating tactic, the teachers did not have much else to use. We can argue until the cows come home about the need to cut salaries and benefits, and I do agree with you, but it is unrealistic and unfair to believe that the teachers union would accept the government's position unilaterally and without protest. It truly is unfortunate that kids got in the way, but there wasn't many silver bullets the union could have used to protest the government's decision. A ban on extra-curriculars was unfortunately one of them. To cram a rollback in salaries and benefits, however needed, down the throats of the teachers union that flies in the face of the agreement that was brokered in good faith by previous governments, and then point fingers when the union protests is unfair, and frankly, a tad undemocratic.

Also, and I have much respect for the police who IMHO are treated a bit unfairly on this board, in the past their union has issued job actions and protests as well. Some of these protests have included cutdowns on police patrols in high-crime areas, and the like. Again, I'm not criticizing these job actions, or blaming cops. I'm just saying for you to act like the teachers are the only ones who have used the public (even kids) as pawns in negotiation is intellectually dishonest.

I don't understand your last point at all, although I do agree with the 'putting lives on the line' point, and the 'summer off point' although again, the situation is not as clear-cut as you seem to think it is

I guess my overall point is that teachers are not the only public sector employees with great benefits who are providing a drain on the province's coffers. You say you understand that, but you continue to bang the teachers. Also that regardless of you say or think, all teachers are not the greedy caricatures who rub their hands with glee at their banked sick days and toast the poor saps who work in the private sector with bottles of champagne while counting their monies. And that letting cops or other public sector employees off the hook, despite their unions using the same practices that you deride the teachers for using, is pretty stupid.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
18,763
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Many teachers did not want to cancel extra-cirriculars and some participated in defiance of their union.
that's too bad!
Their union represents and speaks for them
Perhaps they should have recognized how this would have played out and let their union know this was bad news


To blame all teachers for the actions of their union, particularly since the mandate was not unanimous is absurd.
They certainly benefited from union actions in the past , otherwise we would not be in this mess
One is either in a union or they are not
You want teachers to benefit from collective bargaining, however not accept the blame when their union goes too far
That is absurd

Also, as a negotiating tactic, the teachers did not have much else to use.
With the comp package they are receiving, teachers should have accepted there was lots of room for a trim


We can argue until the cows come home about the need to cut salaries and benefits, and I do agree with you, but it is unrealistic and unfair to believe that the teachers union would accept the government's position unilaterally and without protest.
And that is the true evil of unions, they will extort for more, regardless of whether they are morally right or wrong

It truly is unfortunate that kids got in the way, but there wasn't many silver bullets the union could have used to protest the government's decision. A ban on extra-curriculars was unfortunately one of them.
Bullshit
Teachers positions exist for kids
Unfortunately teachers (as represented by their union) view their positions as a cushy job that pays well in excess of any value provided
The most aggravating issue here is teachers are screwing over the group for whom their position exists
Try that in the private sector and see how long you last



Also, and I have much respect for the police who IMHO are treated a bit unfairly on this board, in the past their union has issued job actions and protests as well. Some of these protests have included cutdowns on police patrols in high-crime areas, and the like. Again, I'm not criticizing these job actions, or blaming cops. I'm just saying for you to act like the teachers are the only ones who have used the public (even kids) as pawns in negotiation is intellectually dishonest.
I do not know how many times I need to say this
All public sector employees need their comp examined

However, take away police & you have anarchy
Take away teachers and you have a bunch of students who are marginally stupider and a logistics problem for working parents
That comparison is irrelevant, frivolous and frankly insulting to police

I guess my overall point is that teachers are not the only public sector employees with great benefits who are providing a drain on the province's coffers. You say you understand that, but you continue to bang the teachers
.
Education is approx. 1/3 of the Ont budget ( correct me if I am wrong)
Healthcare is closer to 1/2 and will grow exponentially in the near future
If the teacher expenses are not controlled now, no way the healthcare unions will co-operate

Also that regardless of you say or think, all teachers are not the greedy caricatures who rub their hands with glee at their banked sick days and toast the poor saps who work in the private sector with bottles of champagne while counting their monies. And that letting cops or other public sector employees off the hook, despite their unions using the same practices that you deride the teachers for using, is pretty stupid
If they are not they would tell their union to back down
Again, right or wrong their union speaks for ALL of them
You can not have it both ways
 
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basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
62,631
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You are over complicating this

There are three very simple relevant facts
1. The province is running deficits
2. the average taxpayer makes $43k
3. the average teacher makes $83K

The average 12 year old could tell you the above three facts spell a disaster and a change is needed

You can talk about rent-seekers all you want. That babble is irrelevant
Again the communist argument; teachers are overpaid because they make more than average. By this argument, half of Canadians are overpaid.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
18,763
4,212
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The province runs a huge deficit because the rent-seekers, the so-called "masters of the universe", have just about destroyed the world economy. Lord knows when we will recover. How is that irrelevant?

The cost of rent-seeking:

http://mercatus.org/publication/cost-rent-seeking-actual-and-potential-economic-growth
No
We are running deficits because Public Sector unions have extorted too much

Please explain how a teachers salary can be approaching the top 5% of all salaries in the country
That is insane

Please explain how the province is expected to continue paying such excess when
a) health care utilization and costs start to accelerate in the near future
b) interest rates move up at the same time

The debt Ont is racking up in order to pay teachers way too much, will become unmanageable when rates increase
Sadly the same group of kids who the teachers are currently screwing over will bear the brunt of the debt problem

And a teachers position theoretically exists for the benefit of these same kids ??
Some benefit, this group will be burdened by teachers for years and perhaps decades
 

rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
9,714
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The province runs a huge deficit because the rent-seekers, the so-called "masters of the universe", have just about destroyed the world economy. Lord knows when we will recover. How is that irrelevant?
No
We are running deficits because Public Sector unions have extorted too much
Pretty sure it's a mixture of both fellas. There's issues on both sides of the coin, and until people recognize that, there's going to be continued finger pointing and nothing is going to get done about it.
 

GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
13,061
3,107
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No
We are running deficits because Public Sector unions have extorted too much

Please explain how a teachers salary can be approaching the top 5% of all salaries in the country
That is insane

Please explain how the province is expected to continue paying such excess when
a) health care utilization and costs start to accelerate in the near future
b) interest rates move up at the same time

The debt Ont is racking up in order to pay teachers way too much, will become unmanageable when rates increase
Sadly the same group of kids who the teachers are currently screwing over will bear the brunt of the debt problem

And a teachers position theoretically exists for the benefit of these same kids ??
Some benefit, this group will be burdened by teachers for years and perhaps decades
I think you're mostly arguing with teachers on this board. You'll never win.

But I do agree that if the general public is paying teachers salaries, they've got to be at least somewhat in line with the public sector. But, I imagine a huge fight would ensue, given the fact they've had it far too good for too long. Just look at how quickly they're ready to throw the kids under the bus the second they don't get their way. I hope they're not teaching my kids that this is how to behave.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,064
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The select few

I think you're mostly arguing with teachers on this board. You'll never win.

But I do agree that if the general public is paying teachers salaries, they've got to be at least somewhat in line with the public sector. But, I imagine a huge fight would ensue, given the fact they've had it far too good for too long. Just look at how quickly they're ready to throw the kids under the bus the second they don't get their way. I hope they're not teaching my kids that this is how to behave.
Actually they have been,...when the union 1st started this fight with us ( the government),...some teachers were telling early grade school kids, (not grade 8s obviously) that the government was wrong.

They really are out of touch !!!

FAST
 

harryass

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2010
3,255
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I wouldnt want to be a teacher, first you got to babysit the snotty stupid brats and also have to deal with the fn ignorant and real stupid pushy so call parents
 

CTSblues

New member
Jan 21, 2005
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Your link to the American site has people in the lower half of the 1% hoping to retire on 50K/year from investment income. Teachers retirement income starts at about 50K, and would approach 100K towards the end of their retirement assuming modest inflation.

Bankers, doctors, dentists, managers generally work more than 9 months of the year. The teachers may not be in the top 1%, but when their benefits and pension are factored in , they are close to it.
If teaching is so great, don’t you think the high earners would all quit their jobs and go into teaching? ;)

A family member is a pension specialist... This is how I understand it:

1) Government pensions are apparently very good, particularly government guarantees at uncertain times such as now. There is no mistake about that.
2) In recent years, some of the benefits are scaled back. Teachers do not have full inflation indexing anymore; their contribution rate will be going up to over 12% of income, e.g. For bankers or managers in our example, they earn 50 thousand a year of pension based on a 4% withdrawal rate for life, indexed to inflation.
3) DB plans are fossils of the industrial age; if you leave early you can actually lose money. It is the last 5 years or so of employment where exponential growth really kicks in.
4) For the bankers or managers, the present value of their retirement fund is 1.2 M. For a teacher at the max qualification and about 30 years of experience, the commuted value of their pension is about 1 M. Big difference!
5) If a divorced teacher dies, say not long after retirement, and the children are financially independent, there is nothing for the children. You made a bet with the actuary, and you lose.
6) Teachers have an 85 factor. Police officers and firefighters have an 80 factor. IBM gave managers a 75 factor window in the early 90s for a reduced pension. Banks are known to give their senior executives 10 years and 55 (65 factor?) reduced pensions in the past as well.
7) Bankers and managers, above a certain rank, are pure rent-seekers. (They do work their underlings to death, however). Here is a day at the office:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5973452&page=1

The best plan of all? Try this for size:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...dollar-politicians-contribute-to-mp-pensions/
 

CTSblues

New member
Jan 21, 2005
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Pretty sure it's a mixture of both fellas. There's issues on both sides of the coin, and until people recognize that, there's going to be continued finger pointing and nothing is going to get done about it.
My point is not that civil servants, including teachers, are not engaging in rent-seeking behavior, but that they are minnows. There are much bigger fish out there. I would find his position a lot more believable if he were to say the following instead:

There are three very simple relevant facts
1. The province is running deficits
2. the average taxpayer makes $43k
3. the average doctor makes $385K


I just find his hatred for teachers bordering on the pathological.
 

rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
9,714
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My point is not that civil servants, including teachers, are not engaging in rent-seeking behavior, but that they are minnows. There are much bigger fish out there. I would find his position a lot more believable if he were to say the following instead:

There are three very simple relevant facts
1. The province is running deficits
2. the average taxpayer makes $43k
3. the average doctor makes $385K


I just find his hatred for teachers bordering on the pathological.
I thought we were talking about teachers because they are the one's butting heads with the government.
 

CTSblues

New member
Jan 21, 2005
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I thought we were talking about teachers because they are the one's butting heads with the government.
The doctors are also butting heads with the government right now, making it a golden opportunity to test my theory that different groups are treated differently, based on their political power.

http://news.ontario.ca/mohltc/en/2012/05/a-real-wage-freeze-for-doctors-the-facts.html

My suggestion to the young is always to join the most powerful group in society that you can. Super smart? Do investment banking and you can tell politicians what to do. Smart? Be a doctor. Average IQ only? Be a police officer.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
18,763
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As a matter of fact there are more teachers killed in the US by gunfire than cops every year. Look at the recent shooting at Sandy Hook

Cops make more than teachers
Cops can claim overtime
Cops are eligible for a fatter pension in a shorter amount of time
Cops get a 4 day weekend - every week. 4 days on, 4 days off.
Cops average 6 weeks vacation a year


You really do need to do your homework before putting your fingers on the keyboard, john
Really?
its too bad or you that we are discussing Ontario Teachers here
What happens in the states is not really relevant

Again, comparing teachers to police is an insult to police
Both are probably overpaid in Ont, but the teachers comp is absurd and irresponsible
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
62,631
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I thought we were talking about teachers because they are the one's butting heads with the government.
Only because the doctors and government came to some agreement on undisclosed lines. Doctors are still making 1% money on the government tab.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
18,763
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The doctors are also butting heads with the government right now, making it a golden opportunity to test my theory that different groups are treated differently, based on their political power.

http://news.ontario.ca/mohltc/en/2012/05/a-real-wage-freeze-for-doctors-the-facts.html

My suggestion to the young is always to join the most powerful group in society that you can. Super smart? Do investment banking and you can tell politicians what to do. Smart? Be a doctor. Average IQ only? Be a police officer.
You really do not have a clue, do you teach?
This is not about political power
The simple fact is we do not have enough doctors right now
in 5-10 years the demand for doctors is going to start increase at an alarming rate (Think about demographics and an aging population)
Doctors have the option to take their talents to the US where they can make way more than in Ont (Double, Triple...maybe more)

I can not believe you want to compare teachers vs. doctors
there is a very long list of applicants for teacher positions
teachers have no where else they can transfer to
a) only one other province has been so foolish to pay teachers as much as Ont
b) No way in hell teachers could command $83K in the private sector
c) you could try the states, but I am pretty sure a big salary cut would be needed

Just on a supply and demand basis, such a reference is a non-starter
Then comparing the educational requirements 7 years + residence vs. a 3 year BA + a year @ clown college is pretty lop-sided
Doctors put in a full day and do not take the summer off
Finally the non-teacher part of society places a rather massive differential on the value of a doctor relative to a teacher

It is astounding, that teachers have such an inflated view of their value in society and use comparisons with police, firemen and doctors to justify their ridiculous compensation
Do not misunderstand the message here, Ont needs to control costs with all public sector employees.
Teachers just happen to the poster boy for excessive comp relative to the value provided
Whining about losing bankable sick days ensured that
Until that happened, I had no idea Teachers averaged $83K a year
Stupid fools need to learn how to fly under the radar better
 

CTSblues

New member
Jan 21, 2005
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This is not about political power
The AMA was able to increase compensation (and status) of their members by limiting the supply of doctors and non-physician competition. You think that doesn’t takes political power? In Italy, a medical education is open-access, and the government hires them where they are needed. This way the nation is well-served and doctor salary is reasonable. Scarcity through rent-seeking is crony capitalism.

An additional problem is of course, socialized health care. If medicine is an out-of-pocket expense for consumers and doctors are on salary, there would be a surplus of doctors in Canada right now. It is a problem of the delivery system, and rent-seeking behavior.

My solution, that of abolishing social programs, may seem severe to some, but it would put a stop to this nonsense immediately. An alternative route, albeit more gradual, is to refund citizens for the portion of social spending they did not consume. We have to start rewarding responsibility for a change if we want a handle on the problem at all.

If you want to know what I do, perhaps you can tell me what you do. You come across like a mutual fund/ insurance salesman peddling over-priced goods at obscene commissions.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
18,763
4,212
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The AMA was able to increase compensation (and status) of their members by limiting the supply of doctors and non-physician competition. You think that doesn’t takes political power? In Italy, a medical education is open-access, and the government hires them where they are needed. This way the nation is well-served and doctor salary is reasonable. Scarcity through rent-seeking is crony capitalism.

An additional problem is of course, socialized health care. If medicine is an out-of-pocket expense for consumers and doctors are on salary, there would be a surplus of doctors in Canada right now. It is a problem of the delivery system, and rent-seeking behavior.

My solution, that of abolishing social programs, may seem severe to some, but it would put a stop to this nonsense immediately. An alternative route, albeit more gradual, is to refund citizens for the portion of social spending they did not consume. We have to start rewarding responsibility for a change if we want a handle on the problem at all.

If you want to know what I do, perhaps you can tell me what you do. You come across like a mutual fund/ insurance salesman peddling over-priced goods at obscene commissions.
AMA ?
You are having a difficult time understanding this is an Ontario issue
The demand for doctors is a serious problem and the excess supply of potential teachers is well known
Supply & demand explains the delta, not politics like you are insinuating


Abolishing social programs ?
Some will need to be trimmed back for sure, but Canadians Will get awful twitchy if universal health care is threatened

My occupation?
Union recruiter ?
Labor adjudicator?
Maybe in the future

My occupation is my business and certainly not something I will discuss on a hooker chat board

I assumed you are a teacher or someone in your household is, if not , Oh well
 

Yoga Face

New member
Jun 30, 2009
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AMA ?
You are having a difficult time understanding this is an Ontario issue
The demand for doctors is a serious problem and the excess supply of potential teachers is well known
Supply & demand explains the delta, not politics like you are insinuating


Abolishing social programs ?
Some will need to be trimmed back for sure, but Canadians Will get awful twitchy if universal health care is threatened

My occupation?
Union recruiter ?
Labor adjudicator?
Maybe in the future

My occupation is my business and certainly not something I will discuss on a hooker chat board

I assumed you are a teacher or someone in your household is, if not , Oh well
it puzzles me no end how intelligent people like you justify the rich getting richer simple because they are rich until they own it all

there is little freedom for workers begging for jobs from these elite

one should get from society the value one puts into it and making from money until one owns it all is nuts

this division of wealth is getting worse and cannot end in anything but disaster
 
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