Taxes

[langeweile]

Here's my equally thoughtful proposal of what the US should immediately cut from its budget, for the great economic and social benefit of its citizens and the world.
Of course the guys wasting all that dough already gave the US a tax cut, and went huge into defecit to do it. Now is the interest on that short-term money they are now borrowing—from the Chinese I hear— waste as well?

Are you Canadians going to protect us???
Personally i sleep better knowing that if somebody screws with us, we have the ability to hit back.
On the other hand a world without military would be great. Imagine all the great things we could do with this money.
As long as the likes of China, Russia, Iraq, NK and others are around it remains a pipe dream.Especially if people want what you have.

 

[oldjones]

Are you Canadians going to protect us???
Personally i sleep better knowing that if somebody screws with us, we have the ability to hit back.
On the other hand a world without military would be great. Imagine all the great things we could do with this money.
As long as the likes of China, Russia, Iraq, NK and others are around it remains a pipe dream.Especially if people want what you have.

In case you hadn't noticed; those figures were the cost of the war and invasion, not defence costs. If you had noticed and think that counts as defence, you illustrate the monstrous difficulty of deciding what's wasteful/necessary spending

 

[langeweile]

In case you hadn't noticed; those figures were the cost of the war and invasion, not defence costs. If you had noticed and think that counts as defence, you illustrate the monstrous difficulty of deciding what's wasteful/necessary spending

Regardless of what the cost was for. I get people like you all the time.Trying to tell me, that if the USA would spend less on military, we all would be better off.
Nonsense....if it wouldn't be for the USA most of Europe and other parts of the world, would speak German or Japanese today.

You conviniently ignore the $$ that the US has spend and still spends to support other countries in this world.
In some cases there would be a much better way to save some tax money. Especially since some of those we support or have supported are stabbing us in the back today.

There has been enough said about the war in iraq on this board. You disagree with the actions and I agree, only time will tell.

 

[oldjones]

All right..All you big Government type guys...A Question. ..or two...

100 Years ago, what percentage of the Canadian Population was employed by Government? It's about 10 % now, I believe. I bet it was much less then.

100 Years ago, what was the percentage of Government Spending to GDP?
Is it more Now?

I understand we need some govermment, but I really believe it has become an "industry" unto itself in Canada. Taxes help the Country grow..but there has to be a level of Diminishing returns, dont ya think?

Yup, and I doubt Conrad Black got as much happiness from his last million (coming in not going out) as he got from his first. The first dollar always buys more. Same w/ dances at the SC, quite often.

A hundred years ago most of the houses around City Hall had outdoor plumbing. Now when they upgrade my domestic water supply they don't even interrupt it. Which takes some expensive doing. Of course we could privatize all that, but would you like your neighbour to exercise their 'free choice' and keep their privy? How 'bout driving on a road like 1905's (a few more years and they'll be easy to find in tax-starved TO) Do w/o the airbags and seatbelts that only exist because of bureaucrats? What about uninspected wiring and construction? Uncertified milk? No labs to screen for SARS? Modern life, as we know it, is for the rich. Like us; that it takes rich government to run it for us should be no surprise.

Like langeweille I'd be happier with lower taxes, but if the debate's going to be more than beer-tears it has to get off the moaning and get to specifics we don't want from government. The odd thing is, in spite of government after government running on such platforms, their voters keep demanding those services. And the guys who cut the taxes run off,* leaving the new governments with huge deficits, and scrambling to fix the shambles of ill-considered cost-cutting.

*Names available, but likely to distract

 

[oldjones]

Regardless of what the cost was for. I get people like you all the time.Trying to tell me, that if the USA would spend less on military, we all would be better off. Nonsense....if it wouldn't be for the USA most of Europe and other parts of the world, would speak German or Japanese today.
…edit…

Wrong. Not at all what I'm telling you. This is a thread (you started) about taxes spent to finance government waste. Invading Iraq has been seen as a monstrous waste of tax dollars (wasn't my website). You disagree. But telling me you "get people like [me] all the time", or that the US once saved the world and still does, is a waste of bandwidth and off your topic.

There's your problem in a nutshell. Get everyone to agree what waste is and taxes will be as low as you all want. But you'll actually have to listen, think, and speak thoughtfully and make your points rationally. Even to those who might differ on which of your cows should be sacred. Go for it.

 

[langeweile]

Like langeweille I'd be happier with lower taxes, but if the debate's going to be more than beer-tears it has to get off the moaning and get to specifics we don't want from government. The odd thing is, in spite of government after government running on such platforms, their voters keep demanding those services. And the guys who cut the taxes run off,* leaving the new governments with huge deficits, and scrambling to fix the shambles of ill-considered cost-cutting.

*Names available, but likely to distract

In case you missed it before...I have made real proposals

http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer

 

[oldjones]

In case you missed it before...I have made real proposals

http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer

No, I looked again

http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer

Since you asked, here it is. I just love the power of the web.

There is a whole list of "pork spending"..enjoy. Add up all the numbers and you will be surprised.

i was looking for a similiar Canadian site, but it wasn't available,or at least I couldn't find it.
Cheers..OJ

I didn't miss it, just didn't realize these were your proposals and not someone you were referencing. Is this the entire action plan?

 

[Hard Idle]

...> How about some good old fashioned accountability? How about telling me what the money is spend on? How about eliminating millions of $$ in pork? How about spending within your means? How about reducing the size of goverment...>

Why do we ignore simple and basic rules when it comes to goverment???
Geez i guess i am just too simplistic.

I tend to think YOU work in the public sector langewile, seems you know alot about public secotor waste - although most that becomes public record sooner or later. Most corporate waste stories remain locked in the breifcases of Management Accoountants.

But perhaps you've never seen an Executive expense claim reconcilliation; if you had, you would know what waste and misappropriation really is. If these types had anything close to a national budget at their disposal, they would make Marcos, Saddam & Mbutu look like taoist monks.

Wherever there's cream, there's skimming, it's a fact of life people gotta get paid. Of course one can't be permanently complacent about it, but it's a compromise that has proven historically effective.

The private sector is not anywhere near the lean, mean machine that some Righties would have us believe - and they know it. They all know of tenders which were accepted purely for kickbacks or connections, with huge damage to the business which is simply denied or ignored. They all know of money-losing pet projects bankrolled for years because of someones ego or as a vessel to siphon company money.

Why I have 3 family members who have worked for years for medium sized ad/publicity companies which exist solely as a make-work project for their well-connected owners. They get jobs year after year, doing half-assed work with poor results for the client without ever being dropped or threatened with competition because they have the right friends.

99% of these stories will never be heard anywhere except around the water cooler or private conversaions between the parties involved. At least the public sector gets outed alot more often than that.

 

[langeweile]

Oh bullshit.

Maybe if the US and the Bush clan did not sell war materials to the fucking Nazi's up to December 1941, the war need not to have cost so many lives.

Or did you forget that the US "did not want to take sides" and continued to sell to both sides, right up to the point the US got dragged into the war?

You have been watching too many Hollywood movies, and not reading history.

You mean the USA provided Germany with their war equipment???Boy and you acuse others of lack of knowledge.
The bulk of military advances around that time was made by the Germans.
Like V1 and V2,Airplanes,Tanks, and neither would have been the A-bomb.
(not something to be proud of BTW)
After the war the allies raided the german scientists and took them to their respective countries. NASA would have not happened if it wasn't for the Germans.
Germany had no need for any technology from any of the allies...boy oh boy

 

[Diode]

And 105 years ago, what percentage of the population were farmers or lived off the land? What was the % of the middle class?

Your question is completely meaningless, and shows a disturbing lack of fundamental knowledge.

Oh Fark Off Winston. YES a higher percentage of people lived "OFF the Land"
So what pal. They were able to care for them selves without to much government intervention.

Look I think YOU have a disturbing lack of fundemental Knowledge. When did most of the "Mega-Projects" occur in this fair land? Humm? The Weland Canal, The St Larwence Seaway? The cross Canada Railway? Things GOT DONE! Now we require a farking commitee decision in Municipal Goverment to have a Stop Light put in.
Do you disagree, that Government in Canada Has become an industry unto it's self ? And as all industy, it trys to grow, and Make Money. Govenment should be a steward...Not a growth industry.

And BTW oldjones, the Mega Highway Projects occured in the 50-60's in Canada, AND Hospitals ALL Had Routine TB Screening in the 40-50's.
A much more serious situation than SARS, and all without the "Big Government" we have Today.
Again, I'm asking a simple question. Does it cost too much today?
DO we need as big a government as we think we do?

 

[langeweile]

I tend to think YOU work in the public sector langewile, seems you know alot about public secotor waste - although most that becomes public record sooner or later. Most corporate waste stories remain locked in the breifcases of Management Accoountants.

But perhaps you've never seen an Executive expense claim reconcilliation; if you had, you would know what waste and misappropriation really is. If these types had anything close to a national budget at their disposal, they would make Marcos, Saddam & Mbutu look like taoist monks.

Wherever there's cream, there's skimming, it's a fact of life people gotta get paid. Of course one can't be permanently complacent about it, but it's a compromise that has proven historically effective.

The private sector is not anywhere near the lean, mean machine that some Righties would have us believe - and they know it. They all know of tenders which were accepted purely for kickbacks or connections, with huge damage to the business which is simply denied or ignored. They all know of money-losing pet projects bankrolled for years because of someones ego or as a vessel to siphon company money.

Why I have 3 family members who have worked for years for medium sized ad/publicity companies which exist solely as a make-work project for their well-connected owners. They get jobs year after year, doing half-assed work with poor results for the client without ever being dropped or threatened with competition because they have the right friends.

99% of these stories will never be heard anywhere except around the water cooler or private conversaions between the parties involved. At least the public sector gets outed alot more often than that.

The big difference is, that a corporation has earned it's money and it is up to them how they spend it.
The goverment uses money that it didn't earn. We entrust it to them. BIG DIFFERENCE.

BTW I don't work for the goverment. Never have never will.
I say it again in case you missed it. Goverment is necessary to run a country, there is no question about that. The issue/question is how much is enough?

 

[langeweile]

Again another foolish comment. The money that is earned by a corporation is the shareholders who elected or appoint management, directly or indirectly, to spend or save it in a responsible manner - sounds somewhat similar to a GOVERNMENT.


bbk

In any case they earned and didn't take it from somebody.
What can i say, not everyone is as smart as you.

 

[Truncador]

To a certain extent it's inevitable that corruption and incompetence in the private sector will duplicate its public counterpart, especially since political leaders usually get their start in the corporate world to begin with. Two wrongs, however, do not make one right, and public corruption is the greater of the two wrongs. The bottom line regulates private excess in a way that it never can the public; you're not free to sell your shares in Big Government if they don't turn out a profit. Additionally, a CEO who crosses a certain line can and will be sent to Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison. Finally, government is supposed to be setting a moral example for eveyone else to follow.

 

[WoodPeckr]

Originally Posted by langeweile
The big difference is, that a corporation has earned it's money and it is up to them how they spend it.
The goverment uses money that it didn't earn. We entrust it to them. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Again another foolish comment. The money that is earned by a corporation is the shareholders who elected or appoint management, directly or indirectly, to spend or save it in a responsible manner - sounds somewhat similar to a GOVERNMENT.
bbk

The WASTE, MISMANAGEMENT, and INCOMPETENCE in the private sector and corporate America is massive and phenomenal and ranks right up there with Government waste. What is different is that it's just hidden and covered up better unless it goes Enron, World Com., Adelphia etc.

I could have retired a millionaire on the amount of waste and scrap that was generated, in just one month, at a major corporation I worked at which was mainly due to incompetent management. Many corporations today still buy parts and tools on the same scale as those past Pentagon scandals which uncovered those $500 toilet seats and $1000 coffee makers for Air Force Bombers. I've seen tool invoices where this corporation paid $50 for a Stanley screwdriver that could be purchased at Home Depot for $3. Air tools costing $450 that were available at Sears for $50!....all due to the same type "sweatheart deals" and kickbacks that go on in the US Defense sector.

In many ways Govt and Corporate spending are one and the same, shot through with corruption and special favors that the big boys jokingly refer to as "one hand washing the other"...........

 

[Diode]

Tell me, who took the money from the shareholders of Nortel, Worldcom & Enron, to name just three. You forget Lang, to earn money a Company must raise capital.


bbk

AH, but bb, Sharehoders are not forced into selecting an investment, right?
They can, research, and then make an informed choice.
AND they can opt out.
Try opting out of paying taxes, you will find the Mounties Horses Shating on your front lawn in no time flat.

Since only the Government has the power to arrest you for not investing (paying your taxes,) I think that of all organizations, they MUST be the most responsible.

If I invest in Molsons, say, and don't like the Coors merger, I can always sell and buy Labbats stock.
But if I disagree with the Liberal/NDP arrangement, what am I to do?

 

[langeweile]

Tell me, who took the money from the shareholders of Nortel, Worldcom & Enron, to name just three. You forget Lang, to earn money a Company must raise capital.

And your right - not everyone is as smart as me.


bbk

You out of all people should know hat investing in to anything is risky. The people in charge of Enron, Worldcom and Tyco will be paying for their criminal conduct.

Plus investing in a company is voluntary..taxes are not.
When was the last time a politician got held responsible for wasting money???