Supreme Court of Canada will release its decision on the Bedford, Lebovitch and Scott

[kstanb]

i actually got the sense this lady is very considerate and intelligent in her FAQ style writing there. she has covered all angels essentially. "Scandinavian women with modest ladylike appearance" lol.

i am off to sweden for work in 2014, I am curious to see what this means "modest ladylike appearance".

i do like the sounds of " have seen plenty of civilian tourist girls that look much more like whores than the real whores themselves do." i personally like a lady who could pass as my wife or girl friend. i am sure from the "whores" perspective they also must prefer guys that can pass as their boyfriend, etc... I always wondered about this. when I've checked into a hotel with a lady of the night i always just say that it's my "wife".

I think she is, in the 1st paragraph, she talks about dating in Copenhagen, and she basically says, "no problem" this is fully legal.

It is when talking about Sweden when she needs to cover all the angles, not for her, but for her "criminal" date.

I think you won't have any problem "hobbying in Sweden, but you should take a lot more care. I advice finding boards, and/ or looking for highly reputed ladies only and /or professional looking webpages. I don't think LE will take the time or effort to coonstruct and keep up to date an independent escort webpage as bait.
As per hotels, I would say "she is my girlfriend" since in Sweden they can ask for the lady's documents and confirm she is not your wife and then call the police.

 

[Aardvark154]

CNN article today.

And LOL at 85% figure, what a joke!!

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/27/opinion/wells-prostitution-victims/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

Further to what you and Jessica have mentioned, I note that the only place outside the U.S. that apparently they visited was Sweden, no travel to Canada, nor to New Zealand or Australia.

 

[Aardvark154]

uugghh what an article. I just tweeted to them... asked them how many Canadian sex workers they interviewed for that piece.

Why does the media always refer to sex workers as women, girls and boys? They rarely consider the male and trans workers and female clients. Frustrating. We also didn't strike down any laws that relate to child prostitution wtf why would they say that? Typical CNN bullshit.

As doubtless you already know, they have "a cause," and they know they are "right" so what difference do real facts make.

 

[Aardvark154]

This is from a Swedish upscale escort page (http://annika-escort.com/?page=faq&lang=en#faq4)



They [hotel staff] would make themselves deeply embarrassed if they accidentally accused anyone falsely. . . . A couple consisting of younger girl plus older guy, is also what hotels have been told to look for as sign of prostitution going on.

If that is what they look for, I believe they are going to be worse than deeply embarrassed at some point if not already.

 

[afterhours]

that is outright ridiculous! denmark is quite beautiful but boring as hell. i don't think any hotel worker has ever given me a second look. how can they demand to see "documents"... that's like a complete invasion of privacy.

In the Netherlands and in Germany they routinely ask for passports in hotels.

On a semi-related note, Germany requires all its residents to report their current address to police (much like Canada does for those of us who drive).

 

[canada-man]

Soho police raids show why sex workers live in fear of being 'rescued'
Breaking into our places of work and throwing us out on to the street is not saving sex workers from trafficking. It's a violation


Sex workers in London's Soho had their doors kicked in by riot police last week. The cops brought along journalists to photograph cowering women who were desperately trying to cover their faces. These images were then splashed across the press. Working flats have been closed, throwing women out on to the street. Some, who were migrant workers, were taken away by the police for compulsory "counselling", detention at Heathrow, and enforced removal from the UK, despite protesting that they were not trafficked victims: they are migrant sex workers – indeed, several of the women currently incarcerated at Heathrow are active within the English Collective of Prostitutes, a sex-worker rights organisation that, along with the Sex Worker Open University, is protesting against the raids.

If this was about protecting the vulnerable, why did police invite numerous press outlets along? If the cops truly believed they were kicking down the doors on victims of coercion, they surely would not bring photographers with them, because to do so would be obscene. That shouldn't detract from how grotesque it is to invite multiple press outlets along to violate the consent of cowering women whose doors you've just kicked in. This wouldn't be less bad just because the women weren't "really" trafficking victims; it would just be bad in a different way.

It's differently bad because it begs the question of why some sections of the feminist movement – in fact, the section that is generally the most audible – have signed off on tactics such as these, finding no policing method too punitive if it's presented as in the cause of "anti-trafficking", and have put a lot of energy into arguing for new legislation – the "Swedish", or "Nordic" model – that increases police power over sex workers. Feminists who argue for the Swedish model claim that it "decriminalises the women". This appears to be based on a convenient misapprehension about how laws work, whereby apparently they're a zero sum: if you add some criminalisation in one place, it must automatically decrease in another. Advocates of "decriminalising the women" tend to not put any work into actually repealing the laws that criminalise us, a good example being MSP Rhoda Grant's (failed) attempt last year to bring the Swedish model to Scotland, which made all the usual noises about decriminalising the women, yet contained no legislative provisions to actually do so. Her draft bill received widespread support from women's groups.

Under legislation that criminalises the clients of sex workers, these raids would still happen. Our workplaces are still criminalised in Sweden. We would still be criminalised if we work with a friend for safety. After the tragic murder of Suzy Lamplugh, in 1986, female estate agents started working in pairs. That isn't because selling houses is intrinsically a form of violence against women (as some people describe sex work), but because the conditions in which work takes place shape how safe that work is. The law circumscribes the conditions in which sex work can take place – unlike Suzy's colleagues, we're legally forbidden from working safely with friends. We have to work alone, or face arrest. The violence that these conditions make us vulnerable to is then used as evidence that sex work is intrinsically violent, and thus should be further criminalised – making us further vulnerable to this very violence.

The Norwegian police recently ran Operation Homeless, whereby they notified the landlords of suspected sex workers that their tenants needed to be evicted immediately, with the loss of their deposit, or the landlord would face prosecution. That's the legal model that is being argued for; to give the police who kick down our doors additional powers to harass, detain and deport us, while continuing to criminalise our work friendships, partners and workplaces.

Given the Met's "anti-trafficking" justification, it's telling to compare the experiences of women in Soho with those of sex workers in the global south, who are long familiar with "anti-trafficking" raids. Kay Thi Win, a sex worker in Burma, has said:

"We live in daily fear of being 'rescued'. The violence happens when feminist rescue organisations work with the police, who break into our workplaces and beat us, rape us and kidnap our children in order to save us. What we need is for the mainstream women's movement to not just silently support our struggle but to speak up and speak out against [those] who have turned the important movement against real trafficking into a violent war against sex workers."

We do.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/11/soho-police-raids-sex-workers-fear-trafficking

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

This is from a Swedish upscale escort page: http://annika-escort.com/?page=faq&lang=en#faq4

and scratch at your door

I liked this part. Is that how they do it in Sweden, they don't knock on your door but scratch on it??! :biggrin1:

 

[nottyboi]

Sounds like you were there

Internal consistency is not Harper's strong suit but I cannot see Harper passing up this opportunity to drive a wedge between himself and Trudeau jr. After all, it was his father who rightly proclaimed "the gov't has no place in the bedrooms of its people".
Justifying a more open prostitution policy is hard to defend politically, but Trudeau will be forced to defend it (given his lineage).
Then Harper can call Trudeau a pot smoking pimp.

It's been said before and worth repeating; this was a pyrrhic victory.

Why did those idiots chose to take on this battle during a conservative majority. Idiots!!!

 

[nottyboi]

Apparently prices in Sweden dropped due to reduced demand.
(I posted a link somewhere)

Also richer people drop out of the hobby as they cannot risk being convicted. These would be lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc etc. so you are left with people that have less to lose from conviction.

 

[Aardvark154]

Also richer people drop out of the hobby as they cannot risk being convicted. These would be lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc etc. so you are left with people that have less to lose from conviction.

Or go on vacations to places where the law is different - of course if you are married. . . . . .

 

[canada-man]

Prostitution blues 1
No, the sky isn’t falling —the feds will pass new laws to address the ‘harms’ of the sex trade

alan-shanoff BY ALAN SHANOFF ,TORONTO SUN

You’d think the sky was falling with all of the misconceptions circulating concerning the recent Supreme Court of Canada decision striking down our prostitution laws.

No, the Supreme Court has not legalized prostitution.

The case before the court was never about the legalization of prostitution.

Prostitution was legal before the decision was released.

The Criminal Code created various offences concerning the use of brothels, living off the avails and communicating in public for the purpose of buying or selling sex.

It is these offences which have been invalidated by the Supreme Court ruling, effective in one year.

But prostitution itself was and remains legal.

No, sex trade workers will not be flocking to your neighbourhood any more than they already have.

Here’s a news flash: They are already in many neighbourhoods, but most of us don’t know it.

Prostitutes already see clients in the warmth of their homes, apartments, condominiums and hotel/motel rooms.

They have been doing so under our noses, albeit illegally.

That’s because the use of any home, apartment or even a hotel room on a frequent basis for the purposes of prostitution violates the brothel prohibition.

No, the Supreme Court decision won’t increase the number of sex trade workers as the fear of prosecution diminishes. Does anyone think sex trade workers decide to get into the business after a thorough study of the criminal law and the legal risks of prosecution?

There are already plenty of sex trade workers.

They may not be in your neighbourhood but they are openly advertising in various publications and online. Check out Craigslist, for example.

No, the Supreme Court decision won’t normalize prostitution.

Prostitution was already legal and has been a thriving enterprise for a considerable period of time, as evidenced by the substantial advertising expenses incurred by the industry.

No, the decision won’t increase the incidence of sex slaves and human trafficking.

Criminal laws concerning these offences remain valid.

If we want to reduce the incidence of sex slaves and human trafficking, we need to put more resources into investigating and prosecuting those offences.

But attempting to enforce a moral code by criminalizing prostitution, or the activities surrounding it, is a waste of resources.

If society is serious about helping sex trade workers the best thing we could probably do is lighten up our hysterical — see Reefer Madness — drug laws.

To the extent prostitutes trade sex for money to afford their drug habits, we need to fix our antiquated drug laws.

Ending the prohibition on drugs would bring prices down, thereby reducing the need to trade sex for money, or sex for drugs, as well as reduce the power of criminal gangs.

When are we going to realize there is no real distinction between being in a drunken, alcoholic stupor and smoking crack cocaine? Both are equally dumb but neither should be illegal.

If you think about it, the same arguments used to strike down the prostitution-related laws could be used to strike down drug laws.

Why should the vulnerable, those with drug addictions, people with disabilities, be forced to risk their safety by compelling them to deal with criminals to obtain the drugs they require?

Doesn’t that violate their right to security of the person just, as the prostitution-related laws exposed prostitutes to risks and violated their security of the person?

But let’s not worry too much.

No, our drug laws are not about to change and the Supreme Court hasn’t shut the door on the criminalization of prostitution, or any activities related to it.

They have acknowledged the federal government may pass new laws on “where and how prostitution may be conducted”, provided they comply with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Finally, the federal government has already announced it will pass new laws to address what they perceive as the “harms” that flow from prostitution.

So, no, the sky isn’t falling.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/28/prostitution-blues

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Goddamnit, can you believe the fact the Toronto Sun is leading the way on the prostitution issue, and not the Toronto Star??!! The Star is far Left, and they are the ones who should be decriminalizing this, but so far the feminists are totally against this. So much for "sexual tolerance". LOL

 

[MattRoxx]

Goddamnit, can you believe the fact the Toronto Sun is leading the way on the prostitution issue, and not the Toronto Star??!! The Star is far Left, and they are the ones who should be decriminalizing this, but so far the feminists are totally against this. So much for "sexual tolerance". LOL

Toronto Star is taking a reasonable approach. And newspaper opinions don't matter much until The Harper government puts forward legislation or says something definitive about what they're going to do:

This needn’t mean that “anything goes” on the streets of our cities and towns. Far from it. Ottawa could allow sex workers to operate out of brothels or homes where they can better protect themselves, for example. Many already do. It could fine-tune the ban on living off the avails in a way that maintains “exploitive” pimping as a crime but that also allows prostitutes to hire bodyguards and other staff. With those safeguards in place, Ottawa might find itself on stronger ground arguing, for example, that the ban on communicating in public about a proposed act of prostitution — street prostitution — is a reasonable restriction to prevent nuisance solicitation, drug trafficking and other problems.
As the Supreme Court pointed out, Parliament has flexibility in deciding where and how prostitution may be conducted. “The regulation of prostitution is a complex and delicate matter. It will be for Parliament, should it choose to do so, to devise a new approach, reflecting different elements of the existing regime.” What matters is the overall impact of the laws.
The challenge for Ottawa is to get that right. Laws that perversely impose dangerous conditions on a legal activity don’t deserve to be on the books.

 

[canada-man]

part 1 is on post 460 more on the enemies of SPs

part 2

part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h640uWnzepk

 

[oldjones]

There's even independents in Sweden:

http://annika-escort.com/?page=introduction&lang=en

http://www.madelinestockholmescort.com/


Interesting. I figured prices would go up instead of down

Reduced demand>lower prices to move the surplus of unwanted product. If prices go up, look for increased demand or decreased supply. Neither is likely in a market that penalizes buyers, while leaving sellers to figure out how to maintain their income.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

The Swedish model is being taken up in Northern Ireland, Belgium, Finland and Lithuania.

Great, just great :frusty:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/30/opinion/state-feminists-vs-343-bastards.html?hp&rref=opinion

State Feminists vs. 343 Bastards

Feminists across Western Europe are sounding the alarm. Prostitution, they claim, has become today’s “white slavery,” with ever more women from Bulgaria and Romania, Africa and Asia being forced, tricked or seduced into selling their bodies.

But in doing so, these activists are creating a schism in the movement, between those who see prostitution as another form of male oppression and those who see it as a possible means of female empowerment.

Much of the debate is centered in Germany, where prostitution is legal. As a result, the German author Alice Schwarzer said, the country has become “an El Dorado for human traffickers, a paradise for johns from all over the Continent,” who come in busloads to frequent the new “mega-brothels” in Cologne, Munich or Berlin.

And, indeed, prostitution is big business here. In bordellos along the borders with France and Poland, countries where prostitution is illegal, groups of visitors are often offered flat-rate packages. Though exact numbers are rare, experts estimate that there are as many as 400,000 prostitutes in Germany, serving more than a million clients and churning out a hefty revenue of 15 billion euros a year.

Ms. Schwarzer is a leading proponent of recriminalizing prostitution, a position that puts her at odds with her erstwhile allies on the left. After all, prostitution was legalized under the coalition government of the Social Democrat Gerhard Schröder in 2002. The idea, said the Green Party politician Kerstin Müller, one of the architects of the law, was to give registered sex workers a way to “get out of the shadows,” including making them eligible for social security.

To Ms. Schwarzer, though, such a system simply locks in place a misogynist power structure: “Prostitution is not the exception, it is a mass phenomenon.” Ms. Schwarzer’s position is common in other parts of Northern Europe, where a sort of “state feminism” has been on the rise for decades. In the name of protecting women, in 1999 Sweden criminalized the hiring of prostitutes, turning the judicial gaze on the johns and away from the women.

Such a law works well in a place like Sweden, where the political consensus is to subordinate one’s personal needs and desires to the common good.

“In Sweden, there are many more men who consider themselves feminists than anywhere else in the world,” said the German journalist Thomas Kirchner, a correspondent for the Süddeutsche Zeitung. “Men have to ask themselves: Do I really want to satisfy my urge, even if that means supporting a system that humiliates and exploits thousands of women? What image of women do I teach my children?”

The Swedish model is being taken up across the Continent: Northern Ireland, Belgium, Finland and Lithuania are all about to follow suit.

But Ms. Schwarzer and Sweden represent just one side of the debate. Organizations that represent sex workers have pushed back aggressively. They argue that the women for whom they advocate — such as the sociology student earning a little extra money in a high-priced escort service, the ex-prostitute who opened up her own business and who claims to love her job — are a social category that simply does not exist for the feminist prohibition movement, which sees only victims of oppression.

Resistance to this new state feminism has nowhere been as vivid as in France, where a new law imposes a fine of 1,500 euros on people caught soliciting a prostitute (they are also required to undergo awareness classes on the dire situation of prostitutes and the dangers of sex work). The French philosopher Elisabeth Badinter declared the proposal “a declaration of hate toward male sexuality.” She has made common cause with a growing number of Frenchmen — as diverse as the novelist Frédéric Beigbeder and the lawyer Richard Malka, who defended Dominique Strauss-Kahn against charges of rape — who deny that their visiting prostitutes constitutes anything other than a private transaction between consenting adults.

A petition called “343 Bastards” — an allusion to a notorious abortion-rights campaign in 1971 of “343 sluts” — stated that “some of us have gone, go, or will go to prostitutes — and we are not even ashamed.” They added, “everyone should be free to sell their charms, and even to love doing it.”

What this debate obscures is the crucial difference between prostitution in general, which can certainly be about consenting adults doing what they want with their bodies, and human trafficking, which no one should tolerate or provide excuses for. Unfortunately, state feminism, in its desire to make a stand for women, ends up punishing those who are most open about their willingness to pay or be paid for sex, while pushing the evils of human trafficking and forced sex work further underground.

Instead of cracking down on the men who frequent prostitutes, the authorities should be focused on the criminal networks that bring in women from Eastern European countries to the European Union.

Punishing johns in general is a kind of fundamentalism that doesn’t befit a liberation movement. By becoming a state religion, feminism can only lose

 

[canada-man]

Uploaded on Mar 24, 2010
Looks into the media presentation of women's issues and its focus on women themselves, compared with an absence of news about men except where they are criminals. Also looks at legislation from governments around the world that explicitly discriminate against men.

• Misandry in news reporting and by charities during the Tsunami in 2004
• Housework and the law
• Is a woman's life worth more than a mans?
• What has society been primed to believe about men?

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Ever notice these feminists are buttfucking ugly??!

No wonder they wanna keep men from having sex, they're probably not getting any of it themselves

 

[losty]

Even if Canada adopts Swedish model, there is still lots of escorting business done in Sweden. But I suspect prices will go up because of the higher risk factor:

http://www.escort-sweden.com/

http://www.divine-girls.com/escorts-directory/top.php?country=sweden&lang=en

http://www.happyescorts.com/escorts/sweden/stockholm

http://m.eskorterplats.com/

http://stockholm.backpage.com/FemaleEscorts/

It is a higher risk for the buyer. I, personally, would have to pay less to take such a risk.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

It is a higher risk for the buyer. I, personally, would have to pay less to take such a risk

But wouldn't also fewer women be working as SP's??

And supply shortage = higher prices. Basic economics 101