Standard or Automatic?

[frankcastle]

Skimmed the posts.....

here a pro for manuals.... cheaper to repair than automatics

here's a pro for automatics..... more comfortable on long road trips (I'd much rather drive to florida using an auto transmission).

also I like cruise control which I don't think I've ever seen a standard car equipped with.

other thoughts.... probably resale of an automatic car is easier since there are less and less people able to drive stick.

 

[shakenbake]

People who say "I've driven both for 30 years", etc., are missing the point.

Automatics get smarter every year. There is no comparasin between an automatic of 30 years ago, or even 15 years ago, and one today. Everything is computerized and the computers are getting a LOT smarter.

Even a lot of what you think of as "standard" these days is actually an automatic in disguise, with the controls just there to make you feel like it's more familiar.

One of my cars has a stick, the other has CVT. The stick still outdoes the CVT in the winter. There is absolutely no denying that a stick gives ultimate control. As for the people who forget which gear that they are in, they need to learn how to drive a stick properly. It is more instinct and feel than anything else, not the gear that you are in, as some one else eluded to in a previous post. However, at the end of the day, it is what you are comfortable with. BTW, all police vehicles in, for example, Italy are stick. What are they elsewhere in the world?

Where did you get the automatic in disguise idea from? My modern Getrag manual transmission is a manual transmission, not an automatic.

 

[shakenbake]

The operative word here is 'skilled' and we can discuss the skill of most of the drivers on Canadian roads 'til the cows come home, but why if MT is so good for the skilled drivers are F1, Lemans, Rally, and Drag racer all going to AT in a large way?

You think they know something the other members of the driving world don't. I just don't see MT being better or these particular transitions would be happening.

I think it boils down to tradition versus practicality. Some people like cotton, leather and wool. Others like micro-fibres. Some people like wooden studs for building homes. others like metal. Or is it just a guy thing? Are there any women out there driving standards? It's hard to tell from the handles on TERB. Maybe some have already voiced their opinions.

Mercedes Benz, Toyota, and even Ford are putting 7 and 8 speed automatic in their mid to high-end vehicles.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the race cars shift gears when the drivers want them to shift gears. That would make them manual trannys, not automatics.

 

[shakenbake]

Skimmed the posts.....

here a pro for manuals.... cheaper to repair than automatics

here's a pro for automatics..... more comfortable on long road trips (I'd much rather drive to florida using an auto transmission).

also I like cruise control which I don't think I've ever seen a standard car equipped with.

other thoughts.... probably resale of an automatic car is easier since there are less and less people able to drive stick.

All of my three manual tansmission cars had cruise control. They are also on many cars in Europe, at least the ones I rented there six and nine years ago. My experience with cruise control and manual transmission is that there is better control of the speed with the clutch instead of a torque converter.

 

[S.C. Joe]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the race cars shift gears when the drivers want them to shift gears. That would make them manual trannys, not automatics.

No, its an automatic trans because of the torque converter. They can shift gears at any time because of how the trans is set up.

Thats how my auto trans is. It can take off from a stoplight in any of the 3 gears. I think its the way to go but with safety laws and gas mileage being lower, the auto companys can not offer it on new cars.

A very good trans guy used to be able to set up any trans that way but now these newer trans are control by a computer.

 

[bigdik]

I know a few people that don't like standards because of the wear and tear it take on their knees with a stiff clutch. I am not sure how much fun that is.

Since I just dislocated my left kneecap on the weekend i'm thankful my other car has an automatic, but there aren't too many clutch pedals so stiff they'll blow a knee.

 

[bigdik]

Skimmed the posts.....

here a pro for manuals.... cheaper to repair than automatics

here's a pro for automatics..... more comfortable on long road trips (I'd much rather drive to florida using an auto transmission).

also I like cruise control which I don't think I've ever seen a standard car equipped with.

other thoughts.... probably resale of an automatic car is easier since there are less and less people able to drive stick.

I don't get your long road trip point? On the highway you'll mostly be in 6th, or 5th if that's all you have, so there's not a lot of difference. The difference to me is in traffic, where I like the acceleration control of a stick. As others have said, cruise is available, but can be less effective on steep hills where a downshift is required.

Tha resale point is valid though, anytime you narrow your market you can lose.

 

[hunter001]

Since I just dislocated my left kneecap on the weekend i'm thankful my other car has an automatic, but there aren't too many clutch pedals so stiff they'll blow a knee.

I didn't say blow a knee but in Toronto stop and go traffic... if you aren't a big person and have heavy clutch (bigger older Audi for example...) or already have knee issues.

 

[S.C. Joe]

The newer cars have a hyd. clutch. Like the Dodge Viper, it takes a very strong clutch to hold all that power but the clutch pedal is soft enough for a lady to drive it. That is because like brakes today, its "power" by the engine or an electric motor, depending on the car.

 

[shakenbake]

The newer cars have a hyd. clutch. Like the Dodge Viper, it takes a very strong clutch to hold all that power but the clutch pedal is soft enough for a lady to drive it. That is because like brakes today, its "power" by the engine or an electric motor, depending on the car.

As was there a hydraulic clutch in my 1990 Grand Am, all 180 horses of it, when the engine was not busted!

 

[glaeken]

you pick the gears it doesnt pick it for you... neutral, gear up, gear down blow the engine up; its up to you ...... it shifts in like the hundredths of a second.

Automatic transmissions cant/dont do this.

Heres a little more reading for you

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/sequential-gearbox.htm

F1 cars now use a seamless shift transmission. Shifting is done electronically by pressing a paddle on either side of the steering wheel (i.e. no clutch peddle). The electronics manage engaging/disengaging the clutch just like in an automatic transmission. In fact, the driver doesn't even have to lift his foot off the gas and the electronics prevent the engine from overreving. Not exactly a manual gear change.

FYI, a gear change in an F1 car takes less than 50ms. It would be impossible for a human driver to shift that quickly.

The only difference between F1 shifting and a true automatic transmission is that the timing of the shift change is at the request of the driver and not according to a preset power band. With the onboard electronics an F1 car's transmission can be completely automatic. The only reason it isn't is due to regulations and not because of any technical limitation.

If the FIA decided tomorrow to force all the teams to drive full automatic they could do it with a simple software change. The physical transmission itself would remain the same it is today.

 

[Mongrel4u]

F1 cars now use a seamless shift transmission. Shifting is done electronically by pressing a paddle on either side of the steering wheel (i.e. no clutch peddle). The electronics manage engaging/disengaging the clutch just like in an automatic transmission. In fact, the driver doesn't even have to lift his foot off the gas and the electronics prevent the engine from overreving. Not exactly a manual gear change.

The driver still has to shift properly.. thats one of the differences between a good driver and a mediocre one.

These cars are still manual glaeken... you cannot compare their gear box to that of a commuter car... its apples and oranges

FYI, a gear change in an F1 car takes less than 50ms. It would be impossible for a human driver to shift that quickly.

I never said a human could shift as quick as an F1 gear box...quite the contrary... but could certainly outshift the automatics available to the public.

Theres a big difference between an F1 gear box and what you get on your Elantra.

The only difference between F1 shifting and a true automatic transmission is that the timing of the shift change is at the request of the driver and not according to a preset power band.

Not true.. F1 gear boxes shift way way faster than your conventional "automatic"..that accounts for a lot

With the onboard electronics an F1 car's transmission can be completely automatic. The only reason it isn't is due to regulations and not because of any technical limitation. If the FIA decided tomorrow to force all the teams to drive full automatic they could do it with a simple software change. The physical transmission itself would remain the same it is today.

sure.. but it would be a slower race especially in the bends... and even if they did perfect the auto trans to shift properly in the bends this technology wont see commuter cars for quite a while.

we are talking about the difference between manual and auto now at this present moment in cars available to regular joes like us

 

[fuji]

A standard has a clutch. An automatic does not. How, pray tell do you disguise that?

Ever thing the "clutch" might just be fly by wire?

 

[glaeken]

These cars are still manual glaeken... you cannot compare their gear box to that of a commuter car... its apples and oranges

If you actually read what I wrote you will see that I wasn't making a comparision of an F1 car to consumer vehicles. My comments were in response to your comment that F1 gearboxes were not automatic. The reality is that for the lack of a software subroutine they are automatic. The design of a modern F1 gearbox has more in common with an automatic gearbox than it does a manual.

And in case you missed it again, I AM NOT COMPARING AN F1 GEARBOX TO A CONSUMER GEARBOX.

 

[shakenbake]

The only difference between F1 shifting and a true automatic transmission is that the timing of the shift change is at the request of the driver and not according to a preset power band. With the onboard electronics an F1 car's transmission can be completely automatic. The only reason it isn't is due to regulations and not because of any technical limitation.

Read the source.

And I quote;

Nearly all race transmissions use the sequential shift approach. The drum is rotated manually by a lever in the cockpit, or it is rotated by solenoids, pneumatics or hydraulics that are activated electronically. In the electronic case, the driver has a pair of paddle switches on the steering wheel to control the mechanism and never has to move his/her hands from the steering wheel.


Because of the advantages of the sequential approach, this type of transmission is starting to appear on cars in the high-end tuner market. A sequential manual transmission is not to be confused with a "tiptronic" sort of automatic transmission. The tiptronic system may duplicate the shift lever motion of a sequential gearbox. However, because a tiptronic transmission is an automatic transmission at its core, it still has the torque converter and usually does not shift as quickly.


The sequential shifter is MANUAL. The gears are shifted manually by the driver. The clutch is still present in the sequential shifter, is it not?

 

[C Dick]

My stick car has cruise control. A stick car is fine for driving to Florida, you just put it in 5th and set the cruise, the only difference is that you must manually downshift for hills and passing, but if there is not too much traffic, it is fine.

My wife had a CVT car, it was strange to drive. When you floor it, the tach jumps up to about 4,500 rpm, and just stays there, you get faster and faster, but the engine note stays the same.

 

[popodaki]

The only consumer cars that have transmissions similar to F1 or other racing cars would be BMW and their SMG transmission and Audi with the DSG. These transmissions are different than the ones found in most CVT cars. If I were going to buy an M5 or M3 or Audi TT, I would definately choose that option over a conventional manual transmission.

 

[Mongrel4u]

If you actually read what I wrote you will see that I wasn't making a comparision of an F1 car to consumer vehicles. My comments were in response to your comment that F1 gearboxes were not automatic. The reality is that for the lack of a software subroutine they are automatic. The design of a modern F1 gearbox has more in common with an automatic gearbox than it does a manual.

And in case you missed it again, I AM NOT COMPARING AN F1 GEARBOX TO A CONSUMER GEARBOX.

Looks like you are the one missing stuff.

Heres a couple links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_manual_transmission

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/sequential-gearbox.htm

READ THEM

 

[slowpoke]

I think with the demand for more efficient hybrid and non-hybrid cars you'll see the manual transmission offered less and less. Not to insult the stick shift fans here but no matter how good you think you are an automatic can shift more efficiently than any human for normal driving and in particular with hybrid cars that are combining power from multiple inputs.

I know that on paper a manual transmission has better fuel mileage but in the real world people with manual transmissions have a tendancy to rev the engine at stop lights and shift at less than optimal times for the "fun factor". That's just human nature but it eats up the fuel efficiency advantage manual has over the automatic.

I enjoy driving my 5-speed manual Honda at higher rpm so you are dead right from an economy and emissions standpoint. There is an extra margin of performance and responsiveness at 4000 + rpm with a standard transmission. So it is hard to resist winding it up to accelerate quicker from stoplights or to power out of corners and ramps etc. With most automatics, you can still override the normal shift points to get higher rpm but this is an awkward struggle so it is easier to just let the auto transmission make all the decisions. Bottom line, most automatics deliver better real world economy and lower emissions but they take the pleasure out of motoring.

 

[juanbrujo]

So it is hard to resist winding it up to accelerate quicker from stoplights or to power out of corners and ramps etc.

Yeah...accelerate quicker from stoplights so you have to slow down dramatically in the next stoplight in red a few meters away.