Somalis watch double amputations

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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Somalis watch double amputations

Hardline Islamists in Somalia have carried out double amputations on four men for stealing phones and guns.

They have each had a hand and foot cut off after being convicted by a Sharia court in the capital earlier this week.

More then 300 people, mainly women and children, watched as masked men cut off their limbs with machetes.

The four men reportedly admitted to the robberies, but were not represented by a lawyer and were not allowed to appeal against their sentence.

The al-Shabab group, which controls much of southern Somalia, has carried out amputations, floggings and an execution in the port of Kismayo but such punishments are rare in the capital.


'Help, help, help!' one of them shouted

Somali justice - Islamist-style
The amputations were carried out in the open in front of an al-Shabab military camp in the north-east of Mogadishu.

A local resident said the four men cried out during and after the amputations. Each man had his right hand and left foot cut off.

"'Help, help, help!' one of them shouted," Mohamed Abdi told the BBC.

Eyewitnesses estimate the age of the four men - Aden Mohamud, Ismail Khalif , Jeylani Mohamed, and Abdulkadir Adow - to be between 18 and 25.

Mr Abdi said the whole process took about an hour to complete.

'Torture'

Human rights lobby group Amnesty International has condemned the amputations.

"These punishments amount to torture," said Tawanda Hondora, Amnesty's Africa deputy director.





Somali president calls emergency
Should troops enter Somalia?
The group says that committing torture could amount to a war crime.

After the four were sentenced to double amputations on Monday, mosques in the area announced through their loud speakers that the amputations would take place at 0800 local time on Thursday.

Al-Shabab spokesman Ali Mohamud Rage told journalists that the amputations were a warning to all thieves.

"If they are caught red-handed in similar circumstances, they will face amputation," he said.

He also said al-Shabab would look after the welfare of the amputees.

On Monday, the court had said it was too hot for the sentence to be carried out on that day as an amputation in such conditions could lead the accused to bleed to death.

The punishments carried out in Kismayo have shocked many Somalis, who traditionally practise a more tolerant form of Islam than al-Shabab's strict Wahabi interpretation.

Onlookers at the amputation in Mogadishu on Thursday declined to comment when asked for their reaction.

President Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed, a moderate Islamist, took office in January but even his introduction of Sharia law to the strongly Muslim country has not appeased the hardliners.

The government has not carried out any amputations under its version of Sharia.

Since 7 May, al-Shabab and its allies have been locked in ferocious battles with pro-government forces.

The president has declared a state of emergency and has appealed to Somalia's neighbours to send troops to help.
 
Unfortunately, some people are still living in the Dark Ages.

Did you know that England use to have the death penalty for 200 crimes? They finally had to abolish the death penalty because civilized juries refused to convict.
 
People in the political forum of Terb routinely call for public lynchings.
 
Didn't the English use to 'Quarter' people?
 
Edifice said:
Didn't the English use to 'Quarter' people?


Yes, but they did it slowly.:)
 
Edifice said:
Didn't the English use to 'Quarter' people?

So you saw the movie "Braveheart" as well. While ancient history is interesting, I am only concerned with the here and now and I don't think the English have legally "quartered" anyone in my lifetime.
 
This is the other end of the punishment spectrum. We are at the other, here we just smack them on the wrist and say "bad" and then let me go to do it all again.......
 
tboy said:
This is the other end of the punishment spectrum. We are at the other, here we just smack them on the wrist and say "bad" and then let me go to do it all again.......

It's true we have a much more lenient justice system in Canada, but let me ask you this: Is Canada safer or more dangerous then the US or Somalia?? .... If you agree that Canada is safer, why would you criticize our system since it delivers less crime and most importantly, less violent crime? More importantly, it does all this at a MUCH lower cost then the US system. Although our system is very imperfect, we should seek to make it better, not just copy a system that creates harder and more violent criminals like the US system does.
 
Makes me think of the day that people were accused of being witches. I wonder if they were beaten and tortured to confession. It is also a shame they are so young and have a whole life ahead of them and could do much more good in the future for society. Who will tend to thier needs now or will they be left to fend like an injured animal? Sure all laws have it's flaws in all countries but lets face it this is inhumane. Luckily some places in the world have come to realize brutality when they see it .
 
Sukdeep said:
The premise of your question is flawed. The security of society is not determined on a one-dimensional basis (e.g., justice system). It also has a lot to do with education, health, welfare, etc.


Well compared to the US we are not really that far different, they are wealthier on a percapita basis....
 
nottyboi said:
Well compared to the US we are not really that far different, they are wealthier on a percapita basis....

Oh, I don't know about that. I'd say they have more (quantity and amount) wealthier people but I believe their poor are much worse off. At least here, doesn't matter how poor you are, you still get health care. In the US, you don't have money you don't get treated.

To answer your question: we probably have more white collar crime than violent crime but we still get the shootings. I bet if we had a similar penalty for theft there'd be no theft here.

Whether we agree with the punishment or not, the ones punished knew the risks when they stole. It wasn't like they were stealing a loaf of bread or food, they stole guns and phones. I always wonder if we had more severe punishments for crimes would that act as more of a deterrent? As it is now most know that if they do something, and get caught, the worst that they'll get is a slap on the wrist. As for the two criminals (and face it, that's what they were) you have to wonder how dumb they had to be? To know that if they got caught they'd have a limb hacked off yet they still stole.......

In the US, a long jail term isn't a deterrent. The death penalty doesn't seem to be.

Jade: to answer your question, the problem with the witch hunt (as with the McCarthy era situation) you were damned the second you were accused. Yes, they were burned at the stake and tortured. Just like during the spanish inquisition: if you denied the accusations, you were tortured until you confessed. Then you were either thrown in the dungeon or killed.

This is one of the reasons I don't come down as hard as many do on the muslim fanatics. The Catholic church killed millions of people. Just look at the story of Joan of Arc. She confessed and according to catholic law, she could be absolved and set free but they didn't, they burned her at the stake too.
 
At the very least there is some upside. They will save some serious coin on shoes and gloves.
 
great bear said:
At the very least there is some upside. They will save some serious coin on shoes and gloves.

I dunno, did they do the left leg on one and the right on the other? If so if they stuck together they'd be all set lol.....even if they did, can you imagine the look on their faces when they went in to buy a pair of shoes?

What size are you?
9

SHIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTT I'm a 10......damn!
 
danmand said:
People in the political forum of Terb routinely call for public lynchings.
I don't know about that, but the death penalty for capital crimes after exhaustive due process is fine by me.
 
tboy said:
To answer your question: we probably have more white collar crime than violent crime but we still get the shootings. I bet if we had a similar penalty for theft there'd be no theft here.

Whether we agree with the punishment or not, the ones punished knew the risks when they stole. It wasn't like they were stealing a loaf of bread or food, they stole guns and phones. I always wonder if we had more severe punishments for crimes would that act as more of a deterrent? As it is now most know that if they do something, and get caught, the worst that they'll get is a slap on the wrist. As for the two criminals (and face it, that's what they were) you have to wonder how dumb they had to be? To know that if they got caught they'd have a limb hacked off yet they still stole.......

Your reply is logically inconsistent. If we cut of someones hand or foot, it will probably cost our society about $500K in lost productivity and medical care. Also, even in Canada it has been shown the death penalty is not a deterrent. Criminals simply do not expect to get caught. It is that simple. If we really wanted to try and make the death penalty a deterrent, executions would be televised. Of course it still wouldn't work. Many countries have tried it for drug smuggling etc etc...yet, guess what, you can still buy drugs in ALL those countries.
 
nottyboi said:
Your reply is logically inconsistent. If we cut of someones hand or foot, it will probably cost our society about $500K in lost productivity and medical care. Also, even in Canada it has been shown the death penalty is not a deterrent. Criminals simply do not expect to get caught. It is that simple. If we really wanted to try and make the death penalty a deterrent, executions would be televised. Of course it still wouldn't work. Many countries have tried it for drug smuggling etc etc...yet, guess what, you can still buy drugs in ALL those countries.

Actually, if you read my post I say just about everything you did.

As for the cost of LOST productivity, do you really think a thief produces anything? Most of the thieves I know cost society in terms of police time, insurance claims processing, lost time for the victims, medical costs (if it was a mugging) etc etc.

Sure you could argue that a B & E who smashes a window actually helps the economy by having to pay someone to repair the damage they caused during the breakin, the sales generated by people having to replace their lost goods etc.

As for the medical costs, (if we take the OP's example) I highly doubt they do anything but wrap their wounds in bandages and send them on their way. The thing about severe punishment, it may not work as a deterrent, but it certainly limits repeat offenders. Hell, how could someone break into a house with 1 hand and 1 foot?
 
tboy said:
Actually, if you read my post I say just about everything you did.

As for the cost of LOST productivity, do you really think a thief produces anything? Most of the thieves I know cost society in terms of police time, insurance claims processing, lost time for the victims, medical costs (if it was a mugging) etc etc.

Sure you could argue that a B & E who smashes a window actually helps the economy by having to pay someone to repair the damage they caused during the breakin, the sales generated by people having to replace their lost goods etc.

As for the medical costs, (if we take the OP's example) I highly doubt they do anything but wrap their wounds in bandages and send them on their way. The thing about severe punishment, it may not work as a deterrent, but it certainly limits repeat offenders. Hell, how could someone break into a house with 1 hand and 1 foot?

Actually, many petty thieves to reform and end up being productive members of society. You reduce that possibility by permenantly disabling them.