Social workers, EMS — not NYPD — to respond to non-violent mental health calls citywide

[Valcazar]

so guy pulls knife and in 2 seconds stabs the social worker to death police are called and arrive well after the fact

in most recent mental person police shooting the family has called police because they cant control the person, then when the police shoot the violent mental person the family claims they were peaceful and wouldn't hurt anyone (why did the family call if they were so peaceful they should be able to deal with it themselves)

Right. The police - being only able to escalate with guns - escalated a situation to the point where they killed someone.
This is about preventing that.
If your scenario of "suddenly in 2 seconds the guy kills someone with his hidden knife" were true, then the cop would be dead as well. Unless you believe cops should just attack all mentally ill people on the off chance they might have a knife, which you might.

 

[contact]

Right. The police - being only able to escalate with guns - escalated a situation to the point where they killed someone.
This is about preventing that.
If your scenario of "suddenly in 2 seconds the guy kills someone with his hidden knife" were true, then the cop would be dead as well. Unless you believe cops should just attack all mentally ill people on the off chance they might have a knife, which you might.

cops wear body armor and stab resistant vest and have the situational awareness to not put them in situations PLUS they have a partner with a pistol who would drop the suspect

seems to me you think its ok for the ems, police or social workers to get injured or killed but not the suspect no matter what they did/do

 

[Valcazar]

cops wear body armor and stab resistant vest and have the situational awareness to not put them in situations PLUS they have a partner with a pistol who would drop the suspect

seems to me you think its ok for the ems, police or social workers to get injured or killed but not the suspect no matter what they did/do

And it seems to me you thinks cops should kill anyone who disagrees with them.
See how easy it is to be wrong?

Let's start simple. Why do you think cops are the only people with situational awareness?

 

[contact]

And it seems to me you thinks cops should kill anyone who disagrees with them.
See how easy it is to be wrong?

Let's start simple. Why do you think cops are the only people with situational awareness?

In multiple threads you refuse to answer any questions or back it up with any sort of fact and here you are once again doing the same thing you have a real sunshine and lollipops view of the world the real world is not that way

tell me how many social workers have use of force training? training to defend themselves from people who want to cause them serious harm or kill them and better yet the tools to defend themselves ie s pistol

If the police are not in the room innocent people will die

 

[Roleplayer]

cops wear body armor and stab resistant vest and have the situational awareness to not put them in situations PLUS they have a partner with a pistol who would drop the suspect

seems to me you think its ok for the ems, police or social workers to get injured or killed but not the suspect no matter what they did/do

I think the real issue here is seen in a careful reading of your post: you are conflating people experiencing a mental health crisis with suspects.

It's the same issue that is appearing over and over again in this thread, as it appears in our culture. There are many reasons for/examples of this. The media rarely talks about mental health issues unless it involves a violent incident, which creates the impression for the public that the two are equivalent. The idea that police should be the default service to address mental health crises, even when there is no evidence of a threat of violence, is part of the same confusion. Of course, mental health is not generally a criminal issue; it is a health issue by definition.

If you want a local example showing how this issue is systemic, it was only in 2015 that legislation in Ontario banned the release of mental health information in vulnerable sector checks. Until that time, different police services had different policies, and some would release, for example, a call in which a person was escorted to hospital by police, even if there was no criminal or violent behaviour involved. This practice was banned as discriminatory.

The data is quite clear that only a very small minority of incidents involving mental distress lead to violence. It does happen of course, which is why nobody is suggesting police shouldn't be involved if there is actual cause to believe there is a threat of harm, but not nearly to the extent you might think. There are very few mental health conditions that are direct causes of violence. When there is a connection, it is typically because of a mediator variable such as extreme distress or substance abuse (which can lead to violence even when mental health is not a factor.)

By the way, social workers already deal with people experiencing mental health crises all the time.

Whether or not this particular program in NYC will be successful is a complicated issue. EMS workers aren't necessarily better prepared to deal with mental health crises than police; they would have to have the right training and temperament themselves. But it's certainly necessary for people to stop confusing mental illness for criminality.

 

[Valcazar]

In multiple threads you refuse to answer any questions or back it up with any sort of fact

Your questions are mostly inane and you repeatedly demonstrate you don't even understand the subject.
This whole thread you are arguing as if all mental health calls must be treated as violent. That's so far removed from reality that educating you is pointless.
Even though police don't want to be handling mental health calls they don't have to, you are opposed to doing what the police want because why?
You think it's woke? You just hate cops? You want more violence?

No one knows.

tell me how many social workers have use of force training? training to defend themselves from people who want to cause them serious harm or kill them and better yet the tools to defend themselves ie s pistol

If the police are not in the room innocent people will die

Listen to yourself.
How detached from reality are you?
CAHOOTS has been operating for 30 years.
The Denver pilot program had thousands of calls and a bare minimum that required escalating to the police.

Or are you just aggressively authoritarian and believe the population must be controlled by the government under threat of force at all times?

I think the real issue here is seen in a careful reading of your post: you are conflating people experiencing a mental health crisis with suspects.

Is it an accidental conflation or is it a preference? At this point I'm not sure.

The data is quite clear that only a very small minority of incidents involving mental distress lead to violence. It does happen of course, which is why nobody is suggesting police shouldn't be involved if there is actual cause to believe there is a threat of harm, but not nearly to the extent you might think. There are very few mental health conditions that are direct causes of violence. When there is a connection, it is typically because of a mediator variable such as extreme distress or substance abuse (which can lead to violence even when mental health is not a factor.)

This is well known. I have no reason to think contact doesn't already know this. He thinks cops should be ready to shoot to kill at all times anyway.

Whether or not this particular program in NYC will be successful is a complicated issue. EMS workers aren't necessarily better prepared to deal with mental health crises than police; they would have to have the right training and temperament themselves. But it's certainly necessary for people to stop confusing mental illness for criminality.

The description of the NYC program is a bit odd. I'm not sure EMS's are being sent on all calls. It seems more that calls are supposed to be sorted based on what may actually be going on instead of cops for everything. The article isn't really clear.

 

[y2kmark]

There are pitfalls, but it's hard to see how the cure could possibly be worse than the disease...

 

[Darts]

These are not ordinary social workers. They have been specially trained on how to takedown an armed attacker without the need to use any weapons. Easy as pie, no sweat. Go to 1:50 in the training video below.

Police academy 1 funny scenes - YouTube

 

[poorboy]

This is going to result in a lot fewer deaths.

You are living in a fantasy.

Even here in the Vancouver area, paramedics will not attend a call without police unless they can confirm the call is strictly medical. The police have to show even if it's some guy in his 80's in a wheelchair who needs to go to the hospital because he won't take his meds.

They don't get paid enough.

 

[Valcazar]

You are living in a fantasy.

Even here in the Vancouver area, paramedics will not attend a call without police unless they can confirm the call is strictly medical. The police have to show even if it's some guy in his 80's in a wheelchair who needs to go to the hospital because he won't take his meds.

They don't get paid enough.

What regulation makes the police show if it is some guy in his 80's?
Why would you send paramedics to a non-medical call in the first place?

 

[poorboy]

What regulation makes the police show if it is some guy in his 80's?
Why would you send paramedics to a non-medical call in the first place?

The paramedics want the police around to prevent an assault. Paramedics go to calls all the time where they don't need to transport people or provide any care. They get called all the time to check out people who are sleeping or hypes who are high to see if they are okay.

The other thing people don't realize is that it's going to be very difficult to find social workers who are willing to work nightshifts when a lot of these problems happen. The Fraser Health START (Short Term Assessment Response Team) doesn't work nights. Good luck finding enough social workers who are willing to go to mental health calls at 4 in the morning, holidays and weekends.

 

[Valcazar]

The paramedics want the police around to prevent an assault. Paramedics go to calls all the time where they don't need to transport people or provide any care. They get called all the time to check out people who are sleeping or hypes who are high to see if they are okay.

Which is why you shouldn't be sending paramedics on random calls.

The other thing people don't realize is that it's going to be very difficult to find social workers who are willing to work nightshifts when a lot of these problems happen. The Fraser Health START (Short Term Assessment Response Team) doesn't work nights. Good luck finding enough social workers who are willing to go to mental health calls at 4 in the morning, holidays and weekends.

That is a legit issue. You need to expand pay and funding to cover the 24 hour period. That's why you change the budgets.

 

[poorboy]

Which is why you shouldn't be sending paramedics on random calls.




That is a legit issue. You need to expand pay and funding to cover the 24 hour period. That's why you change the budgets.

Paramedics cannot turn down 911 calls. Paramedics cannot refuse to transport someone to the hospital if they want to go see a doctor, unless they believe the patient will cause danger to themselves, which is why police show.

A first class Constable in Toronto earns $100,923.28, as a BASE salary, and they have trouble getting full staffing to work the nightshifts. Police are just people in a line of business. They have their share of slackers who call in sick on nightshifts, just like other union companies.

How much are you willing to pay to have a social worker work those late hours?

Your expectations are too idealistic about what a social worker can do and you don't seem to have a grasp of emergency service personnel duties, the people they deal with or the conditions they work under.

 

[Valcazar]

Paramedics cannot turn down 911 calls. Paramedics cannot refuse to transport someone to the hospital if they want to go see a doctor, unless they believe the patient will cause danger to themselves, which is why police show.

A first class Constable in Toronto earns $100,923.28, as a BASE salary, and they have trouble getting full staffing to work the nightshifts. Police are just people in a line of business. They have their share of slackers who call in sick on nightshifts, just like other union companies.

How much are you willing to pay to have a social worker work those late hours?

Your expectations are too idealistic about what a social worker can do and you don't seem to have a grasp of emergency service personnel duties, the people they deal with or the conditions they work under.

And yet a variation of the program has been running for 30 years already in Oregon. They call for police backup <1% of the time.
It's standard practice in a number of countries to have mental health responders.
Violence against paramedics is a known problem, exacerbated by limited budgets and overwork.
We should be paying more for the social workers and relieving cops of calls they shouldn't be making.
I'm not sure why you are all so dead set on making police do things they aren't equipped to do and don't want to do.

 

[y2kmark]

The paramedics want the police around to prevent an assault. Paramedics go to calls all the time where they don't need to transport people or provide any care. They get called all the time to check out people who are sleeping or hypes who are high to see if they are okay.

The other thing people don't realize is that it's going to be very difficult to find social workers who are willing to work nightshifts when a lot of these problems happen. The Fraser Health START (Short Term Assessment Response Team) doesn't work nights. Good luck finding enough social workers who are willing to go to mental health calls at 4 in the morning, holidays and weekends.

Do the Nattering Nabobs of Negativism still meet the third Thursday of every month?...

 

[poorboy]

And yet a variation of the program has been running for 30 years already in Oregon. They call for police backup <1% of the time.
It's standard practice in a number of countries to have mental health responders.
Violence against paramedics is a known problem, exacerbated by limited budgets and overwork.
We should be paying more for the social workers and relieving cops of calls they shouldn't be making.
I'm not sure why you are all so dead set on making police do things they aren't equipped to do and don't want to do.

Funny you're lecturing me as if I don't know anything about the topic.
Canada has programs too.
Guess what? Their effectiveness is LIMITED, because they don't want to work late at night, or actually go so some of the calls, even if they have police protection because they are still scared.

There's propaganda the press puts out, and there's what actually happens in real life.

Car 67 Mobile Service - Fraser Health (bc211.ca)