Yeah, I know, but it's the perception thing. When the engine fails, people blame the airframe anyway. This is a second loss of the aircraft due to engine failure in a couple of years, I think. A decade ago a pilot died when his seat belt unfastened while inverted. My point is, the Snowbirds will fly as long as they have the support of the public(remember DC 10?). After the investigation reveals that she would have survived ejecting from a more modern aircraft, that might be enough to kill the Tudors. And if there's no replacement, it will be bye bye Snowbirds.
Snowbirds
- Thread starter Darts
- Start date
Not too many Military Pilots, however, the market is drying up. People are not interested in flying that type of equipment. There is/was a giant shortage of Pilots and that wave ended when C19 hit. Emirate airlines starting to park aircraft since they didn't have enough Pilots to fill the seats. Air Canada was hiring indefinitely. Yes the airlines are taking a heavy hit. My guess its going to take 3-5 years to correct itself. I work on a shiny Private Jet. The boss has offices globally, therefore, he has his own crew to move him around. Corporate Pilots are in a safer spot as suppose to an Airline Pilot.
Actually there have been 7-8 fatalities and that's a lot considering the amount of flight time they actually do. An airliner these days is designed to see limited amount of time on the ground since they only make revenue in the sky. They typically fly 19 hours a day. An airplane accident is an airplane accident regardless how many souls on board. Look what happened the boeing 737 Max....two accidents and it caused an international halt. They are still grounded. Two accidents too much. There's no doubt these airplanes are kept in great shape. Machines break down and unfortunately when airplanes fail they crash. Well I/m sure the military will shine more light on a course of action. I hope. Something newer should be implemented. New iron comes with some pretty great redundancy systems.
Bud the show was put on to boost moral in this shit time & as a salute to the front line workers like the Blue Angels & Thunderbirds are doing. And FYI they weren't travelling with the full crew (approximately 80) only about two dozen as they weren't doing the aerobatic routine just a simple flyover.
Possibly but she ejected in the worse case scenario of worst case scenario's, low altitude, downward trajectory & low speed. Even the newest seats they refitted to the 18 that measure air speed & altitude before firing would have a hard time in that scenario. I assume he was trying to get enough lift & airspeed to make it back to the runway. From the looks of the video she ejected slightly before him but I'm guessing she weighed considerably less & that plays a factor in the speed the chute will open on that old design. I think it's an effin miracle his chute opened & caught enough air to slow his landing on the roof
Probably 90% of chopper pilots are ex military, the training costs are insane so most come from the military. As well as for planes when your done your military career unless you go on to instruct you are very sought after in the commercial aviation field.
Yep went to school with someone involved in it & they are meticulously maintained
Yep the 18 is way overkill for an aerobatic routine, drinks fuel & very expensive to maintain. When they stopped using the Tudor as a trainer in 00, & replaced it with the Hawk they should have done the same with the Snowbirds. Beautiful subsonic plane that makes the Tudor look like a dinasour
Got to watch the Snow Birds fly over my city`s major hospital, Kingston General, just last week. Absolutely awesome! Thank You! Seems, apparently, according to eyewitness that her parachute failed to deploy, thus she plunged to her death. Noooo! Fuck! Sadly, this marks the second time that a female aviator member of Canada`s Armed Forces has died in the line of duty this year. RIP
The aircraft likely have a lot more flight time then we're aware of. Remember that the perform all over Canada and the US too and they fly the aircraft down. Still a relatively small number of incidents given the age of aircraft.
You're comparing apples to oranges regarding Snowbirds and the 737 Max. Snowbird pilots are heavily screened, trained and accept the risk of performing these stunts. Airline pilots are not subjected to anything near the level of Snowbird pilots. The reason the 737 Max was grounded is because the number of aircraft out there and potential incidents it could have caused.
When it comes to air shows I still prefer the old WW I bi-planes and WW II airplanes. I love the P-51 Mustang. The famous Tuskegee Airmen flew Mustangs to escort American bombers all the way deep into enemy territory and back. Legend has it that the Tuskegee fighter escorts never lost a bomber to enemy action.
The aircraft is a 800N nautical mile machine. It has the endurance of about 2 hours on a good day. Depending on ground speed and head winds maybe less. Since they fly at relatively low altitudes the ratio between fuel and air increases therefore the burn rate increases. So maybe endurance wise its 1.5 hours. And that's operating at a cruising speed. Now throw in full power maneuvers which drinks more fuel. Then a fuel stop is needed. Its not a high time machine. Friend of mine I went to school with was a snowbird. The average military pilot fly's 10 hours a week. Those hours are transferred to the aircraft. That's 40 hours a month which equates to 480 a year. That's considered low time in the aviation world. Airframe and Engine's, regardless if you're a snowbird or 737 or a Cessna 172, everything is based on time. An airline pilot does about 80-90 hours a month. Its not a small number of incidents too pal. Sorry. We can agree to disagree. Cool
? If you had to fly that airplane coast to coast there's not enough duty time in a day a Pilot can complete that mission. Where subject to 14 hour duty days which commences at a specific time...normally 1 hour before take-off. Then enroll your 45 minutes stops on the ground to fuel up..bla bla bla....
With regards to comparing oranges to Snowbirds, that's your perspective, however, the governing body who investigates accidents doesn't. Its unified.
The 737 Max was grounded because the number of accidents and the potential it could of caused? uh? It was caused by a system called " Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System " (MCAS). This system caused the aircraft to point nose down to gain more airspeed to fly safely. A faulty sensor reported that information to the aircraft's Flight Computers, which sent a stall message but it wasn't stalling. The system proved to be a failure and the stall warning computers must pass without any faults before take off. Part of the certification process ( which was missed on the MAX - there's more to it than that, however, not getting into it) and also part of the MEL ( Minimum equipment list ). Period.
With regards to training you are absolutely right. Since I move passengers I have a flight test every 6 months by Transport Canada. I get every possible failure thrown at me to see if I crack . If I fail my test my Licence gets stripped. Snowbirds focus on aerobatics and the majority of other Pilots focus on boring oceanic crossings. But when you land in Greece and you're there for 5 nights - it makes up for the boring crossing and somewhat nerve racking flight tests .
If I sounded like a dick, that wasn't my intention or demeanor. Its just words I'm throwing on a screen. This information is coming from me who respects your opinion. No bad blood.
? If you had to fly that airplane coast to coast there's not enough duty time in a day a Pilot can complete that mission. Where subject to 14 hour duty days which commences at a specific time...normally 1 hour before take-off. Then enroll your 45 minutes stops on the ground to fuel up..bla bla bla....With regards to comparing oranges to Snowbirds, that's your perspective, however, the governing body who investigates accidents doesn't. Its unified.
The 737 Max was grounded because the number of accidents and the potential it could of caused? uh? It was caused by a system called " Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System " (MCAS). This system caused the aircraft to point nose down to gain more airspeed to fly safely. A faulty sensor reported that information to the aircraft's Flight Computers, which sent a stall message but it wasn't stalling. The system proved to be a failure and the stall warning computers must pass without any faults before take off. Part of the certification process ( which was missed on the MAX - there's more to it than that, however, not getting into it) and also part of the MEL ( Minimum equipment list ). Period.
With regards to training you are absolutely right. Since I move passengers I have a flight test every 6 months by Transport Canada. I get every possible failure thrown at me to see if I crack . If I fail my test my Licence gets stripped. Snowbirds focus on aerobatics and the majority of other Pilots focus on boring oceanic crossings. But when you land in Greece and you're there for 5 nights - it makes up for the boring crossing and somewhat nerve racking flight tests
. If I sounded like a dick, that wasn't my intention or demeanor. Its just words I'm throwing on a screen. This information is coming from me who respects your opinion. No bad blood.
He was not going back to the runway. He was following their sop for the engine failure at low altitude- pull up, idle and restart. He didn't have enough energy, stalled almost immediately and the plane went over into a spin. With the Weber ejection seat, it's a miracle he survived. The whole sequence happened in like 10-15s from routine to catastrophy. The modern ejection systems have a lot more power that would have overcame the descent which was fairly slow. That's not certain, but it would have given them at least one "swing". The eyewitness , a nurse, reported that the passenger had catastrophic injuries which means that the canopy never fully deployed.
Shitty timing too. At an airport with high terrain. CYQA ( Kanloops) has mountains surrounding it. 25 nautical mile safe altitude must be high. When I flew a single engine turbo-prop, in our take-off briefing, we had to state in event of an engine failure below 1000 feet I will make minor turns left or right and land straight ahead. Above 1000 feet I will turn into wind, make a 180 degree turn and land back at the airport. That was in out SOP's ( Standard Operating Procedures) Its very tough to make the field below 1000 feet. The Captain had her hands full. They also ejected in a nose down attitude causing to fly out horizontally as suppose to vertically. Just a really shitty day at the office. She did the best she could. Deepest condolences.
No bad blood taken. Clearly, you know more than the average person about aircraft in general. But I do understand that the actual age of the aircraft is not as important as the number of flight hours assuming that maintenance is the same. When I said apples to oranges comparison, I was talking about the general differences in training and the role these aircraft are designed for. A fighter aircraft are subjected to stresses that passenger aircraft will never be. Let alone fly in a tight formation.The aircraft is a 800N nautical mile machine. It has the endurance of about 2 hours on a good day. Depending on ground speed and head winds maybe less. Since they fly at relatively low altitudes the ratio between fuel and air increases therefore the burn rate increases. So maybe endurance wise its 1.5 hours. And that's operating at a cruising speed. Now throw in full power maneuvers which drinks more fuel. Then a fuel stop is needed. Its not a high time machine. Friend of mine I went to school with was a snowbird. The average military pilot fly's 10 hours a week. Those hours are transferred to the aircraft. That's 40 hours a month which equates to 480 a year. That's considered low time in the aviation world. Airframe and Engine's, regardless if you're a snowbird or 737 or a Cessna 172, everything is based on time. An airline pilot does about 80-90 hours a month. Its not a small number of incidents too pal. Sorry. We can agree to disagree. Cool
With regards to comparing oranges to Snowbirds, that's your perspective, however, the governing body who investigates accidents doesn't. Its unified.
The 737 Max was grounded because the number of accidents and the potential it could of caused? uh? It was caused by a system called " Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System " (MCAS). This system caused the aircraft to point nose down to gain more airspeed to fly safely. A faulty sensor reported that information to the aircraft's Flight Computers, which sent a stall message but it wasn't stalling. The system proved to be a failure and the stall warning computers must pass without any faults before take off. Part of the certification process ( which was missed on the MAX - there's more to it than that, however, not getting into it) and also part of the MEL ( Minimum equipment list ). Period.
With regards to training you are absolutely right. Since I move passengers I have a flight test every 6 months by Transport Canada. I get every possible failure thrown at me to see if I crack . If I fail my test my Licence gets stripped. Snowbirds focus on aerobatics and the majority of other Pilots focus on boring oceanic crossings. But when you land in Greece and you're there for 5 nights - it makes up for the boring crossing and somewhat nerve racking flight tests
If I sounded like a dick, that wasn't my intention or demeanor. Its just words I'm throwing on a screen. This information is coming from me who respects your opinion. No bad blood.
I would think that the Air Force would be investigating the cause of the crash and not the Transportation Safety Board.
To clarify about the 737 MAX, I said: "the reason the 737 Max was grounded is because the number of aircraft (not accidents as you said) and potential incidents it could have caused. I did read about MCAS and why Boeing installed it. Specifically, to deal with the tendency of the nose to pitch up as a result of the newer engines.
KK Gotcha. Understand your thoughts clearly now. Boeing was greasy. Boeing told their buyers there would be no Pilot training on this new aircraft. Only a differences course had to be taken which takes a day to complete. So if a Pilot is typed on a boeing 737-800 series these Pilots can transfer over to the Max without a full blown start from scratch training course. Just to give you an idea, when we get trained on a new machine it costs about 70-90K per pilot. The course is about 4-6 weeks which includes ground school and simulator training. Airlines LOVE saving money
Anyways Boeing's tried to keep the modifications minor to accommodate not having to train Pilots and it seemed like they got themselves into tight situations to avoid Pilot training. Anyways there's more. Project was a shit show to my understanding. Lots of people fired over this. The TSB handles accidents on Canadian soil and NTSB handles accidents on US grounds. I think its called NTSB. Or vice versa. Something like that. Now the investigation begins. A whole bunch of non-biased people come in and go through a pile of paper, analyze the impact and see if there was a crack somewhere.
Hope Covid has not impacted your personal or financial life.
I can appreciate how expensive pilot training especially simulator time can be. Doubly so when you have to take pilots off the roster (and not flying) to upgrade skills. It sounds like you're an airline pilot and have been temporarily or permanently laid off? The incidents with the Max and the pandemic did show us a fundamental problem with the airline industry in general. It's very difficult to maintain a balance between making money and safety. The airlines love saving money because the customers want to. Hopefully, this pandemic will slowly reverse the race to the bottom for airlines. Sadly, people will always chase the lowest price possible while sacrificing safety.KK Gotcha. Understand your thoughts clearly now. Boeing was greasy. Boeing told their buyers there would be no Pilot training on this new aircraft. Only a differences course had to be taken which takes a day to complete. So if a Pilot is typed on a boeing 737-800 series these Pilots can transfer over to the Max without a full blown start from scratch training course. Just to give you an idea, when we get trained on a new machine it costs about 70-90K per pilot. The course is about 4-6 weeks which includes ground school and simulator training. Airlines LOVE saving money
The TSB handles accidents on Canadian soil and NTSB handles accidents on US grounds. I think its called NTSB. Or vice versa. Something like that. Now the investigation begins. A whole bunch of non-biased people come in and go through a pile of paper, analyze the impact and see if there was a crack somewhere.
Hope Covid has not impacted your personal or financial life.
You nailed the head on the hammer. People will always revert to the lowest price possible when it comes to travel. Low cost carriers is the new reality. I'm surprised Canadian carriers have not implemented a charge to utilize the toilet.
I'm fortunate to be working. Still employed, however, I work in a different market of aviation. I fly a corporate business jet for a CEO. Most high net worth individuals have their own Private Jet, however, they tend to keep a low profile about it. They hire their own Pilots. This CEO has offices globally, therefore, we are an international aircraft. 10 percent of our flying is North America, and the other 90 percent is all Europe, China, Hong Kong, Brazil, Africa ect ect ect........
After a CEO purchases the aircraft he/she hires Pilots. The training is paid for by the CEO. There's 4 of us. Were all Captains having the same rank. We just came back from Florida. Home for a week and I think off to Japan next week. He's fallls under essential service hence the reason why we are travelling without restrictions. Its a pain in the ass eating on the road during these times, however, we make it work. Google or Youtube Gulfstream 550 if you get a chance.
What field are you in? You have a strong sense of aviation. You in the business?
The only thing I saw was the miracle of modern medicine which which enabled you to donate your brain to science while you were still alive.
Amazing.
Surprised that people still flying business jets during this time. Must be vitally important to travel and not use technology.
I'm not attached to aviation at all. Just a regular office jockey. I have been interested in aviation for some time though. Though I'm not a true geek where I can tell you the specs of individual aircraft. I do follow some aviation related YouTube channels like Mentor Pilot and 74 Gear. Maybe you've heard of them. Really interesting information that they put out about the ins and outs of the aviation business.
There is nothing wrong with these planes, they are well maintained and looks like a bird was ingested. They waited too long to get out. I timed almost 8 seconds from apex to ejection, both would have made it if they got out earlier. Not sure if there is a delay with the seat to eject the canopy maybe.
