Hey healer677,
Are you telling me if someone through a beer at Tie Domi, he would have done nothing?
Are you telling me if someone through a beer at Tie Domi, he would have done nothing?
Ron Artest!!
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Ahem healer677, you sound like a bigot! What does wearing bling-bling and hoodies have to do with class? You seem to relate black-urban culture as somehow being a culture of no class.healer677 said:Ahem.....gentlemen....
THEY"RE BASKETBALL PLAYER! no class is a given!
Of all the pro athletes these guys are the biggest, trash talking, bling wearing, hoodie sporting, entourage carrying clowns in the world. Dare I say, they've surpassed pro boxers in my books for biggest sports clowns.
NEW YORK (AP) - Indiana's Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson, and Detroit's Ben Wallace were suspended indefinitely by the NBA on Saturday for taking part in one of the ugliest brawls in North American sports history, a fight with fans that commissioner David Stern called "shocking, repulsive and inexcusable."
Ben Wallace's cheap shot? The game was over (45 seconds with a 15 point lead). Ben goes up for a routine uncontested layup with everyone just running out the clock, and Artest takes the opportunity to foul him from behind, for what?Cosine said:Combine that with Ben Wallace's cheap shot
At least Big Ben squared off with him face to face. Sure, Artest runs after an out of shape fan, but he wanted no part of Ben. The whole thing was a damn shame, but I certainly wouldn't blame Ben for any of it...Artest's foul was uncalled for, Ben reacted in a "Ok, you won the damn game but you're not coming into my house and punk me out" kind of way...and the rest is history. Sad history for Detroit.
I usually go to 4 or 5 games a year, and the fans have always been a class act. This was one of those nights where the Pacers were probably perceived as simply running into the stands without serious provocation (the fans at the tunnel probably didn't see the initial beer toss). Either way, it looked like Pacer players attacking our fans, not smart in any town. Still no excuse for the reactions, just a snowball rolling.
I thought Artest's foul was hard, but it was not ruled flagrant. (BTW, all flagrant fouls are reviewed the next day by the league). Nonetheless, I don't see how Wallace should get suspended for more than 2 games, if all he did was just shove Artest.
I know that some Palace fans have a rough reputation. There was an article during the Raptors/Pistons playoff series 3 seasons ago about how Raptors fans were getting harassed there.
I know that some Palace fans have a rough reputation. There was an article during the Raptors/Pistons playoff series 3 seasons ago about how Raptors fans were getting harassed there.
I have only seen bits and pieces of the tape of the incident, but I am still wondering, what kind of fool tries to pick a fight with NBA players?
Artest is 6-7, 246
Jackson is 6-8, 218
O'Neal is 6-11, 242
I just don't understand what these fans were thinking.
Artest is 6-7, 246
Jackson is 6-8, 218
O'Neal is 6-11, 242
I just don't understand what these fans were thinking.
On a previous thread - the state of the game of basketball was actually addressed by an insider - Charles Barkley. Read his book and it may very well enlighten you on the actual dynamics of what goes on in the mind of todays young players.
Barkley addresses two key issues in his book -
there is a percieved notion for what todays players refer to as "keeping it real" and the ideas of being "caretakers of the game".
And as far as baskeyball, I have been watching and following the sport since the days of Havlichek and King. As a fan, if you haven't noticed the changes since the days of Showtime in LA; then you haven't been paying attention.
Ron Artest is a goof - maybe his actions were motivated by his own "needs" (he does need time off to "rest"). Big Ben reacted properly in my opinion.
And as matter of fact, when a fan got out of line with Domi (in Philly) and ended up in the penalty box with him; Domi could have easily pounded the piss out of him - but he didn't. Why not? Figure it out.
There is a culture that surrounds basketball today that wasn't present even one generation of players ago. And the state of the game now, is disturbing. Violence is always present in any sport - or the potential for violence. By it's nature pro sports is a competitive, testosterone driven endevor thus, creating this environment. Keeping it under check is what makes you a pro. This cultural problem may very well extend to the fans as well - what the hell are the fans thinking, you cant treat people like that - even if you paid for your ticket. Even in the hostile environments like NY (Yankees), Montreal (Habs) and the nation (for the Raiders) - the fans are very vocal, hostile even but they tend not to step over that line.
I wonder what it was like for players like The Big O, like a young Cassius Clay or even Jessie Owens who took the shots they did; not just on the playing field but within their own cultural environment. Todays players certainly have the mentality that they're bigger than the game. Their actions on and off the court is indicative of this. The indicident with Wallace and Artest is a symptom. The NBA has to find a cure.
Like any disease, there will always be little symptoms, in sports the presence of this new "culture" started off slow. But it's gaining in popularity and presence. There are and always will be trouble makers everywhere. But the small issues, for athletes are almost always ignored. But there are players to be admired as well - Duncan learned from one of the best - the Admiral. Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen are great examples of being "caretakers of the game". But, as much as I like him - Artest and Damon to name two are good examples of what going wrong with the game.
Barkley addresses two key issues in his book -
there is a percieved notion for what todays players refer to as "keeping it real" and the ideas of being "caretakers of the game".
And as far as baskeyball, I have been watching and following the sport since the days of Havlichek and King. As a fan, if you haven't noticed the changes since the days of Showtime in LA; then you haven't been paying attention.
Ron Artest is a goof - maybe his actions were motivated by his own "needs" (he does need time off to "rest"). Big Ben reacted properly in my opinion.
And as matter of fact, when a fan got out of line with Domi (in Philly) and ended up in the penalty box with him; Domi could have easily pounded the piss out of him - but he didn't. Why not? Figure it out.
There is a culture that surrounds basketball today that wasn't present even one generation of players ago. And the state of the game now, is disturbing. Violence is always present in any sport - or the potential for violence. By it's nature pro sports is a competitive, testosterone driven endevor thus, creating this environment. Keeping it under check is what makes you a pro. This cultural problem may very well extend to the fans as well - what the hell are the fans thinking, you cant treat people like that - even if you paid for your ticket. Even in the hostile environments like NY (Yankees), Montreal (Habs) and the nation (for the Raiders) - the fans are very vocal, hostile even but they tend not to step over that line.
I wonder what it was like for players like The Big O, like a young Cassius Clay or even Jessie Owens who took the shots they did; not just on the playing field but within their own cultural environment. Todays players certainly have the mentality that they're bigger than the game. Their actions on and off the court is indicative of this. The indicident with Wallace and Artest is a symptom. The NBA has to find a cure.
Like any disease, there will always be little symptoms, in sports the presence of this new "culture" started off slow. But it's gaining in popularity and presence. There are and always will be trouble makers everywhere. But the small issues, for athletes are almost always ignored. But there are players to be admired as well - Duncan learned from one of the best - the Admiral. Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen are great examples of being "caretakers of the game". But, as much as I like him - Artest and Damon to name two are good examples of what going wrong with the game.
Actually you might want to look at the difference and the incident.healer677 said:And as matter of fact, when a fan got out of line with Domi (in Philly) and ended up in the penalty box with him; Domi could have easily pounded the piss out of him - but he didn't. Why not? Figure it out.
1) Domi did grab and swing at the player.
2) The fan fell in penalty box.
So I guess you don't have any recollection of any other sport getting involved with fans?
Odd....I've seen it in hockey more than once, this year in baseball a player threw a chair at a fan, I've seen it in soccer in Europe and South America.
It can happen in any sport. It's not a basketball/culture thing.
Artest is an entertainer and he knew he was pissing off the fans. His posing on the scorers table was meant to taunt the pistons and the fans. He should expect to get some back. He's getting paid millions off dollars to entertain and the fans are the ones who are paying. They shouldn't have thrown all the crap that they did but they could taunt and yell all they want. How many jobs are you allowed to beat on annoying people? If you were, a lot more people would get beat downs from the cops.Back Burner said:Then you missed everything.
Actually after the shoving with Ben, Artest was minding his own business until a fan threw a bottle or beer or something at him.
That's when it started.
Wallace is going to get a few more games than otherwise because Artest and co. acted like they have more money than brains. Artest should be sent off to produce his album for the season. Maybe he'll be the next rodman.
There has been a line crossed in the NBA.
Even the Bad boys of the 80's (Mahorn and Laimbeer most notably) kept the confines of their actions within the bounderies of the court. It's one thing to play with passion, it's another to be just a goof. Even the foul which started the melee was completely unecessary. Staring down the fans and egging them on from the scores' table was unecessary. Mad Max back in 95 got 10 games for going into the stands after a fan. Latrell got a year for choking his coach (Carlissimo). These incidents had nothing to do with passions on the court for the game.
There is no doubt that the fan should not have thrown the drink. But the fan Artest attacked, was it even him who threw the drink? There will always be fans who talk trash and its their perogative. But, as a pro player in a pro league getting paid millions, you have to walk away from that. A player has no business storming the stands. Artest has a long and colorful history - he was involved in the Pacers/ Celtics brawl (he left the bench to participate) in the playoffs. The elbow incident with the Blazers' Derek Anderson. Last year he was suspended 6 times (5 by the NBA and once by the team). And the MSG fans in New York have no love for him either , after he snatched a camera from a tv cameraman and smashed it after a loss.
Does alcohol fuel the problem - probably. Some idiots gets a little liquid courage and they figure they can go with a player. There are enough officials and level headed players on the field / court to control the situation. Did Artest really have to punch that guy out? I don't think so. Should he be on the court (the fan) definitely not. But its a problem within the league, with the fans and the players.
The more interesting question is - will anybody take responsiblity for this? Will a player say - "I started it". Will the Palace management say -"there should have been more security"(though an incident like this is really unpresidented in basketball). Will the league hand out real fines (lengthy suspensions without pay for the they players involved). Will the fans who had season tickets involved be stripped of the privilage to watch their teams live.
Probably not - but we'll see.
And I believe the problem is bred within the game. Same with hockey and Football (soccer). Those two though are an animal of a different breed. The violence in both hockey and football is extreme but consistent for the last few decades. What we're seeing in basketball is an evolution of a culture of negativity that culminated in violence.
It's a shame none the less. Specially for the Pacers, they fielded 6 players tonight for a home game - what a waste. In the end the fans suffer - they pay good money for tickets and are denied the product.
Even the Bad boys of the 80's (Mahorn and Laimbeer most notably) kept the confines of their actions within the bounderies of the court. It's one thing to play with passion, it's another to be just a goof. Even the foul which started the melee was completely unecessary. Staring down the fans and egging them on from the scores' table was unecessary. Mad Max back in 95 got 10 games for going into the stands after a fan. Latrell got a year for choking his coach (Carlissimo). These incidents had nothing to do with passions on the court for the game.
There is no doubt that the fan should not have thrown the drink. But the fan Artest attacked, was it even him who threw the drink? There will always be fans who talk trash and its their perogative. But, as a pro player in a pro league getting paid millions, you have to walk away from that. A player has no business storming the stands. Artest has a long and colorful history - he was involved in the Pacers/ Celtics brawl (he left the bench to participate) in the playoffs. The elbow incident with the Blazers' Derek Anderson. Last year he was suspended 6 times (5 by the NBA and once by the team). And the MSG fans in New York have no love for him either , after he snatched a camera from a tv cameraman and smashed it after a loss.
Does alcohol fuel the problem - probably. Some idiots gets a little liquid courage and they figure they can go with a player. There are enough officials and level headed players on the field / court to control the situation. Did Artest really have to punch that guy out? I don't think so. Should he be on the court (the fan) definitely not. But its a problem within the league, with the fans and the players.
The more interesting question is - will anybody take responsiblity for this? Will a player say - "I started it". Will the Palace management say -"there should have been more security"(though an incident like this is really unpresidented in basketball). Will the league hand out real fines (lengthy suspensions without pay for the they players involved). Will the fans who had season tickets involved be stripped of the privilage to watch their teams live.
Probably not - but we'll see.
And I believe the problem is bred within the game. Same with hockey and Football (soccer). Those two though are an animal of a different breed. The violence in both hockey and football is extreme but consistent for the last few decades. What we're seeing in basketball is an evolution of a culture of negativity that culminated in violence.
It's a shame none the less. Specially for the Pacers, they fielded 6 players tonight for a home game - what a waste. In the end the fans suffer - they pay good money for tickets and are denied the product.
I don't know where you're hearing this.........but the only one that I would tend to agree with is the Wallace scenario.plyrs99 said:i am hearing..30 games for artest. (and an undisclosed fine)
20 games for stephan jackson and jermaine o'niell, fines as well.
5 for big ben. there may be fines involved for the teams as well.
Plyrs99
Artest and Jackson and O'neal are nothing but punks. This was pure ghetto stuff and was a disgrace to the sport. Neither one of the 3 should play again this season and that would amount to more than 20 games each.
Yeah.........they're real tough guys, eh?
Sucker punching drunks and anonymous people in the stands that didn't have anything to do with the idiot that threw the drink at Artest?
You could see the looks on those fans' faces............they couldn't believe this 6'7, 246 lb. professional (I use that word very loosely) athlete was charging toward them like a lunatic, and flailing away at anything that moved.
Both Jackson and O'neal absolutely drilled guys with right hand shots.
In both cases the guy wasn't doing anything physically threatening.
This was gutless and cowardly behavior and should be punished severely.
Were some of the fans out of line? Sure.........and that's why you have police and security officials. Under no circumstances can you have players scrapping with fans, and that goes for any sport.
You want to know why things like youth violence, and a general lack of respect are prevalent with kids today you need look no further. Look at the role models they got.
This is Stern's opportunity to make a difference in the sport, and try to set some future standards for the good of the game. He needs to hit these punks hard and fast, and 20 games just doesn't cut it.
IMO, this is a league, team, arena and municipality / police thing, in that order.
The league should have clear rules on all sorts of behaviours and not undermine them by allowing stars agents and the teams lawyers delay and appeal.
The team should give lectures on behavioural issues, including psychologists, therapists, counsellors (given the age and education of the players), lawyers and agents, and play out scenarios because they're going to happen. Didn't the Flyers start this after the Lindros-girl-nightclub-beer on head.
The arenas should make it extremely clear again and again to the fans the repercussions of boisterous behaviour including defining what is allowable and what is not. Small print on back of ticket is not enough.
The municipality and or police should treat all behaviour beyond defined allowable boisterousness according to applicable assault and battery or racial / hatred laws. Not just kicked out of arena, but kicked into police car.
And all of the above should be advertised, publicized, printed, distributed and announced regularly during games.
My last crazy suggestion. Arenas should have officials or spotters looking for potential situations especially towards ends of games, with the ability to signal to on floor official to call time out, have arena public announcement, teams huddle and security swarm suspect area. Responsibility has to be taken, has to be shared and must be planned, not apologized for after the beer and fists are flying.
Regardless of who taunted, punched, threw first, they did it. Up to me, all parties in the brouhaha would never play in NBA again. Swift, sharp directed discipline, it always works.
The league should have clear rules on all sorts of behaviours and not undermine them by allowing stars agents and the teams lawyers delay and appeal.
The team should give lectures on behavioural issues, including psychologists, therapists, counsellors (given the age and education of the players), lawyers and agents, and play out scenarios because they're going to happen. Didn't the Flyers start this after the Lindros-girl-nightclub-beer on head.
The arenas should make it extremely clear again and again to the fans the repercussions of boisterous behaviour including defining what is allowable and what is not. Small print on back of ticket is not enough.
The municipality and or police should treat all behaviour beyond defined allowable boisterousness according to applicable assault and battery or racial / hatred laws. Not just kicked out of arena, but kicked into police car.
And all of the above should be advertised, publicized, printed, distributed and announced regularly during games.
My last crazy suggestion. Arenas should have officials or spotters looking for potential situations especially towards ends of games, with the ability to signal to on floor official to call time out, have arena public announcement, teams huddle and security swarm suspect area. Responsibility has to be taken, has to be shared and must be planned, not apologized for after the beer and fists are flying.
Regardless of who taunted, punched, threw first, they did it. Up to me, all parties in the brouhaha would never play in NBA again. Swift, sharp directed discipline, it always works.
good for david stern. stand up to that jerk ron artest! i was hoping for this kind of suspension, but never thought the NBA would actually have the balls to do it, way to go!
now, they should suspend guys who demand trades who have legit contracts!
Plyrs99
the indiana pacers scouts should be fired! obviously, when they interview potential draft picks, or make deals for players, they dont value character and integrity to high! larry bird has had a big influence on the personnel of the team as well, and, dare i say, he has not done too bright of a job. missing these three guys will hurt the pacers.
now, they should suspend guys who demand trades who have legit contracts!
Plyrs99
the indiana pacers scouts should be fired! obviously, when they interview potential draft picks, or make deals for players, they dont value character and integrity to high! larry bird has had a big influence on the personnel of the team as well, and, dare i say, he has not done too bright of a job. missing these three guys will hurt the pacers.
Unpaid=Back Burner said:Actually
Artest - Season
Jackson - 30 games
O'Neal - 25 Games
Wallacce - 6 Games
Artest - 5.5 mil
Jackson - 1.8 mil
O'Neal - 4.5 mil
Now comes the criminal charges (assault n battery) and civil suits.
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Well plyrs99, you might want to change your sources then. lolplyrs99 said:well tiger williams, looks like my soruces are bang on! tsn is reporting the same suspensions i have listed for you!Plyrs99
And for God's sake.........stop watching those frat boy wannabe jocks on TSN.
Stern got it right with the Artest suspension...........but IMVHO he still came up light in O'Neal and Jackson's case. They should be sitting the year out as well.
As I said in a previous post, their gutless behaviour will turn out to be very expensive indeed. Can't you just see the lawyers salivating at the thought of taking these lowlifes to the cleaners? Something tells me the people that got punched didn't show up for work today. lol
