Rogue Construction Contractors

[tboy]

I don't have a problem paying a fix-it man well to do a good job, it's when they don't know what the problem is and they quote you anyways to get the job. A contractor is like a stockbroker if you don't know or care he'll screw you or overcharge.

Homebuilders have done a good job of convincing people the shit they build is a good investment. While I'm no fan of stocks they outperform real estate over time by a margin of 3 to 4 times. I know people who bought houses in the early 80s have held thru the "boom years" since then and after expenses including mortgage interest, taxes, energy, maintenance are barely even. Now I know some of you may say people have to live somewhere, what about rent. Well a good investment is judged by its total return and cost and on that basis many houses are a shit investment especially the cardboard boxes they started building in the 60s. After 30yrs a new roof on a 500k home can cost 25k, new carpet 20k, painting outside every 5yrs 5k, inside walls ceilings 10k, furnace, appliances the fucking expenses and hassles never end. Most people are too afraid to admit the costs. A house or condo is a depreciating asset, the land is worth something but only in a good location with nice vegetation. To the people who own those cookie cutter boxes on tiny lots, pray for inflation, cause that's the only thing that's going to raise the value of your shitbox. No offence.

Buddy, you had a bit of sympathy from me, and patience even with your BS comments but no more. I thought you had some smarts until you wrote the above....I mean, dude, how can you include the mortgage costs on a house to ROI of other stocks etc? If you want to do an accurate comparison or argument include the fact that you have or had to borrow money to buy the stocks etc in the first place.

As for your long term goals, yes, some stocks are better than real estate but dude, you tell me ONE share or stock or mutual fund that has tripled in value over the past 6 yrs. I double DOG dare you....for eg: I bought my loft for $75000.00 at the end of 1999. I recently had it appraised and it is now worth $240,000.00 plus (that was two years ago so it is worth even more now..). FYI: I finished the bathroom for $1000.00 and put a new maple kitchen in which also cost me $1000.00 so for 2 grand, I realized an ROI of $165000.00 dude, that is ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS in 6 YEARS. So you're saying to me that you KNOW of a stock, bond or share that for $2000.00 is now worth $495,000.00? Dude you're a millionare and didn't even tell us.....

By the way, either provide PROOF of a share or stock that realized this kind of ROI or just STFU

And boy do you like cardboard or something? I lived in one of those houses built in the 60's...it was worth $7200.00 and is now worth $300 K plus....and I know the only major renovations that have been done is a new roof, $1800.00 and a new furnace which I believe was $2400.00.

Another thing: that house, had plaster NOT drywall, the walls are straight, flat and plumb. The baseboards and mouldings are SOLID, NOT fingerjointed pine, the corners of the baseboard are coped, and are a full 6" high. This is the type of stuff you find in houses 700 K and up nowadays.

So dude, before you go off half cocked, make sure you back up your assumptions with facts, NOT conjecture.....

 

[Esco!]

May wanna try some Decaf, tboy

 

[oldjones]

I don't have a problem paying a fix-it man well to do a good job, it's when they don't know what the problem is and they quote you anyways to get the job. A contractor is like a stockbroker if you don't know or care he'll screw you or overcharge.

Homebuilders have done a good job of convincing people the shit they build is a good investment. While I'm no fan of stocks they outperform real estate over time by a margin of 3 to 4 times. I know people who bought houses in the early 80s have held thru the "boom years" since then and after expenses including mortgage interest, taxes, energy, maintenance are barely even. Now I know some of you may say people have to live somewhere, what about rent. Well a good investment is judged by its total return and cost and on that basis many houses are a shit investment especially the cardboard boxes they started building in the 60s. After 30yrs a new roof on a 500k home can cost 25k, new carpet 20k, painting outside every 5yrs 5k, inside walls ceilings 10k, furnace, appliances the fucking expenses and hassles never end. Most people are too afraid to admit the costs. A house or condo is a depreciating asset, the land is worth something but only in a good location with nice vegetation. To the people who own those cookie cutter boxes on tiny lots, pray for inflation, cause that's the only thing that's going to raise the value of your shitbox. No offence.

Yup. But this thread you started is about contractors. You're supposed to know what the problem is, otherwise how can he quote? If he has to come up with the diagnosis as well as quote and you carved his best guess in stone after what: maybe half an hour's inspection, while you've had days weeks or months to observe, my bet is you were selectively deaf when he said things like, "we'll know more when we see more". There's something vaguly dishonest in expecting the stranger to define and fix your problem. But I wasn't there.

Maintenance does cost, and people never stop to figure it per annum. Yeah, that roof (mine was quoted at 15K for 30yr, but my 500k house is downtown and has a way smaller roof than a 500K McMansion in the burbs) won't be cheap, and you could figure mine at $500 a year. A prof tracked house prices, adjusted for currency fluctuations, on a street in Amsterdam from 1600s to the present (thanks to Dutch regulations, he had the records) and found that the real price of the house (stillstanding, and desireable) finally doubled only in the last century. Still, everyone knows there's money to be made in real estate (spell Trump) maybe just not by you and me. Still, you gotta live somewhere, and TANSTAAFFL.

Anyway, read your first paragraph next time you take on a bulding project: "if you don't know or care he'll screw you or overcharge" You left out the third possibility: that he'll do a decent job and you'll feel just as bitter and cheated, because you don't know. It's hard to cheat an honest, informed man.

 

[Maxie]

how can you include the mortgage costs on a house to ROI of stocks

There was an article in the Post recently that showed the cost of mortgage interest over 30yrs is more than the value of the house. It's like having to pay for two homes. Interest expense also reduces the value of stocks bought on margin.

All I'm sayin' is a house is a fucking headache, it's cheaper to rent, take the savings and reinvest it somewhere else unless you get off on gardening and snowblowers.

 

[rick dickulous]

I'm a contractor too. If a customer is smart they will find someone they can trust and hire them on a time and material basis. Home owners rip themselves off with their "give me a final quote or nothing" attitude. Contractors will quote those dopes a price they are pretty sure they can make a killing on, or just fuck off if things go sour. In this hot Toronto market, improving your house is like stashing that money in a bank. Home owners with half a brain will realize that and go for a quality job. Here's a metaphor: what's a better value? A trans fat and salt and sugar laden burger, fries and pop for 5 bucks, or an organically grown chef salad for $8? One will clog your arteries, and the other will clear them out! Home renos are the same decision, and more often the customer makes the wrong choice.

 

[jaycam]

There was an article in the Post recently that showed the cost of mortgage interest over 30yrs is more than the value of the house. It's like having to pay for two homes. Interest expense also reduces the value of stocks bought on margin.

All I'm sayin' is a house is a fucking headache, it's cheaper to rent, take the savings and reinvest it somewhere else unless you get off on gardening and snowblowers.

Are you a short bald man? How do you function in life, or are you only this way when dealing with owning a home.

 

[tboy]

May wanna try some Decaf, tboy

LOL Yeah I know, it is just when idiots like maxie start sprouting off about contractors aka ME and James T et al it gets my blood boiling.....

There was an article in the Post recently that showed the cost of mortgage interest over 30yrs is more than the value of the house. It's like having to pay for two homes. Interest expense also reduces the value of stocks bought on margin.

All I'm sayin' is a house is a fucking headache, it's cheaper to rent, take the savings and reinvest it somewhere else unless you get off on gardening and snowblowers.

Sheesh, you really know your finances don't you? I guess every knowledgeable financial advisor is wrong and you're right? Hell, here I thought paying monthly for MY house and getting the financial benefit when I sold was a good thing and all along who knew that paying the same amount in rent and never seeing a penny of it again was the way to go? Shit, why pay off my mortgage when I could be paying off someone else's??? Damn, I'm doing this all wrong......

LOL renting is cheaper eh? LOL chortle, cough, god....that's a good one...a REALLY good one......

Here's some simple math for you maxie:

Rent:
$1000 a month, for 20 yrs (the average mortgage) without even considering rent increase.
$240,000.00 and what do you have to show for it? Not a fucking thing...

Own:
$1000.00 a month (even for a condo) for 20 yrs = $240,000.00 and what do you have? A condo worth $240,000.00 which you can sell and whoa, look at that, you lived rent free for 20 yrs....

Yeah Yeah I know, there's maintenance costs with a condo but ya know, a lot of rentals don't include utilities any longer so you have to pay that anyways on both.

 

[Esco!]

Even though tboy has popped a few blood vessels I have to agree with him, I've lived in purchased condo's most of my life and the only expenses are:

mortgage
maintenance fees
property taxes
and the very occassional miscellaneous costs like plumbing, painting, floor grinding.......etc

and I dont even have floor maintenance anymore because I installed laminated Pergo wood which lasts for 50 years, I never have to grind it and reseal it again.

So please tell me Maxie, where will my next major maintenance bill come from???

 

[james t kirk]

Out of curiousity, what is the going rate for T and M for a general contractor who is good at what he does these days?

 

[tboy]

Depending on what is being done, my rates average between $25.00 and $50.00 per hour.

For eg: someone wants some trim work done, $25.00
they need custom cabinets etc $35.00
something that needs rental equipment or for me to
hire other trades $50.00 +

I also charge $15.00 per hour for helper if the job is rush or is in need of 2 people to complete.

Like I said, it depends on what is being done. Say someone wants a new addition and requires a foundation built/dug/formed then it can be as much as $120.00 per hour.

And material, well, that again depends on what is being done but I typically charge 20 points over cost (that is AFTER taxes) plus time to go get it. I also include the cost of all adhesives/fasteners etc.

And btw, my time starts the minute I start packing tools at the shop and ends the minute I put the key in the lock to unload.

My T and M also is plus mileage at $0.32 per km.

basically whta T and M is everything that you would normally include hidden in your quote, right out in the open.

I also do Time only and the customer supplies material. This is a MAJOR headache because a couple of times, I've given a list of materials that they need to purchase and they don't get the right stuff, or not enough (ie: I need 1 x 3 G4S pine and they get 1 x 2 or I need 8 8' lengths and they show up with 6) But I charge em for any delays caused by this but typically I move on to other things while they go get the right items. it is a pain though when you schedule your time and then can't complete that part of the project.

 

[james t kirk]

Those are all very reasonable rates. Cheaper than I expected even.

I have 2 good friends who are generals.

One is 50 bucks an hour, the other is 75 if he doesn't like you, 60 if he does.

Your mileage rate is too low.

If you were to put 200,000 km on your vehicle at 32c, you would get a cheque for 64,000.00.

If you are driving an F-150, they are about 45k out the door and then maybe some.

Say that leaves you 20 grand.

At 10 litres per 100 km (no F-150 will get that, but let's say) that means you need 20,000 litres of gas.

That equals say $20,000.00

So, just the gas and the vehicle, that's now equal to $65,000, already more than you are charging for your vehicle.

Add in insurance and maintenance, and you are probably over by another 15 to 20 grand.

In short my friend, you are paying your customers for you to drive your vehicle.

My company charges our clients 41 cents per km for mileage. Other companies I have seen charge 45. The gov't charges 49 cents.

You may want to rethink your mileage rates at least.

cheers

 

[oldjones]

Thank you both for these insights; may I offer the CAA's Driving Costs study in support of the jtk's suggestion for truck rates.

 

[tboy]

Those are all very reasonable rates. Cheaper than I expected even.

I have 2 good friends who are generals.

One is 50 bucks an hour, the other is 75 if he doesn't like you, 60 if he does.

Your mileage rate is too low.

If you were to put 200,000 km on your vehicle at 32c, you would get a cheque for 64,000.00.

If you are driving an F-150, they are about 45k out the door and then maybe some.

Say that leaves you 20 grand.

At 10 litres per 100 km (no F-150 will get that, but let's say) that means you need 20,000 litres of gas.

That equals say $20,000.00

So, just the gas and the vehicle, that's now equal to $65,000, already more than you are charging for your vehicle.

Add in insurance and maintenance, and you are probably over by another 15 to 20 grand.

In short my friend, you are paying your customers for you to drive your vehicle.

My company charges our clients 41 cents per km for mileage. Other companies I have seen charge 45. The gov't charges 49 cents.

You may want to rethink your mileage rates at least.

cheers

Well, yeah, I know my rates are low for the most part. At present, since I've only been indie for 2 yrs, I haven't taken on any major renovations. (By major I mean a whole house or basement etc.) Should I do so my rates would run at the same as your other "generals" (as opposed to privates or sarges lol). At present I keep my rates low so I can build up my rep and get some word of mouth out there. As demand for my skills and time grows, so will my rates (and it is growing). Lately it seems that I've become known for custom transition or thresholds for hardwood floors. I think I have made about 100 linear feet of them. I seem to have a knack for it lol.

About the mileage rates, you're bang on and thanks for doing the calcs for me (I mean it). I just haven't sat down and figured out what I SHOULD be charging so you saved me a bunch of time.

As for your friend's, does that hourly rate include any additional manpower or is it just for them? I ask because the company I worked for before going indie would charge $65.00 an hour, but that was for a crew of 2. Anything larger and the rate would of course, go up.

 

[james t kirk]

Well, yeah, I know my rates are low for the most part. At present, since I've only been indie for 2 yrs, I haven't taken on any major renovations. (By major I mean a whole house or basement etc.) Should I do so my rates would run at the same as your other "generals" (as opposed to privates or sarges lol). At present I keep my rates low so I can build up my rep and get some word of mouth out there. As demand for my skills and time grows, so will my rates (and it is growing). Lately it seems that I've become known for custom transition or thresholds for hardwood floors. I think I have made about 100 linear feet of them. I seem to have a knack for it lol.

About the mileage rates, you're bang on and thanks for doing the calcs for me (I mean it). I just haven't sat down and figured out what I SHOULD be charging so you saved me a bunch of time.

As for your friend's, does that hourly rate include any additional manpower or is it just for them? I ask because the company I worked for before going indie would charge $65.00 an hour, but that was for a crew of 2. Anything larger and the rate would of course, go up.

50 per hour is just for him, or any of the 2 senior guys that work for him.

If you figure 40 hours per week at 52 weeks per year = 2080 manhours per year.

50 bucks per hour x 2080 hours per year = $104,000 per year.

If you are very good at what you do, 100 k per year salary is not out of whack. I would bet that there are lots of guys on this board making 100 grand per year and think nothing of it, but if a contractor charges 50 per hour they are the same guys like maxie who get all bent out of shape.

 

[tboy]

Funny that you brought that up (about the wage level)....I was thinking about this whole thread this week and I remembered the ONE time in (too many years) that someone acknowledged the value contractors and carpenters played in the big scheme of things. It was an architect who said to me: you know, you guys are greatly unappreciated in general, just because we can draw things on paper doesn't really mean squat. We don't actually BUILD the building/house/barn...we just show someone else how to do it. Without you guys as an integral part of the team, nothing would really ever be built.....

 

[new2game]

Just curious TBoy

Here's a little story for you:

I was doing this job (kitchen) just finishing the trim etc. They get some prices for stainless, brushed alum etc and they are all around $1800.00. They didn't want a wooden one like many kitchen manf. provide cause they are IMHO butt ugly.

So I spend about 8 hrs doing up drawings, taking dimensions, researching the mechanics etc. and they decide on one of my designs.

I quote them $1400.00 they flip, well we only wanted to pay about $300.00. I said, well, you buy the guts and I will build you one for $300.00 but you have to finish it.
So I make the thing, takes me about 20 hrs to build, veneer, fitting and moutning their guts etc. They get the stain, it is the wrong colour (doesn't match the kitchen). I just happen to have some that is close so I give em a sample (took about 2 hrs to produce the sample and deliver it) they say ok. So I stain it and clear coat it. BTW, took me about 6 hrs of blending etc to get the stain close.....

I install the thing and it doesn't match exactly and, of course I warned them, the stain job isn't 100% perfect. What happens? they bitch and moan about the colour, and it isn't exactly what they wanted. (took me about 3 hrs to install plus I had to pay for some ducting that they forgot to buy).

Keeping track of my hours yet? Let's add em up:
Drawings: 8 hrs
construction: 20 hrs
Install: 3 hrs
Sample: 2 hrs
Staining: 6 hrs
Material: (cherry veneer) $80.00
Ply core: $30.00
Ducting: $20.00
fasteners/Contact cement: $20.00
Stain and Clear coat: $20.00

Ok so I've got 39 hrs and $170.00 you do the math....I ended up making about $13.00 an hour on it and they BITCHED about it.

I said to them, look, if you wanted the $1400.00 piece, I could have made it for you and gotten a pro to finish it. But you didn't, you wanted the $400.00 piece and that is what you received....

LESSON: IF YOU WANT TO PAY 1/3 THE PRICE OF SOMETHING YOU WILL GET AN ITEM 1/3 THE QUALITY....

...I didn't get a sense of who you were blaming for this F/Up..that you made 13 /hr on that job..whose fault is it IMHO ??....YOURS..why the hell would you quote such a ridiculous low price to begin with??...I know, the problem in your industry is much the same as in the industry i understand well(auto collision repair)...so many don't know the true cost of what they do, they feel that if they are "working" ..that if they have money coming in, that there must be a profit at the end of the day...you made 13/hr that day..there are lots who screw up worse than you...work all day and make zilch.or lose money.. they just shuffle funds ..and some of those who screw up are good with their hands..excellent craftsmen..but horrible businessmen....and those that are trying to make a proper living at the craft have to pay for it. Accurate and fair estimating is critical in your business as it is in my industry. Educating customers that a quote is just that...it's called an "estimate" for a reason..let them know that when things are disassembled, additional damages can be found,and additional costs will be incurred to repair these damages ..and be open and transparent with them and take the time to show them what needs to be done... and if someone undercuts your accurate estimate, have the strength to let the job go..and if the competitor wants to take it on,and lose his shirt, more power to him..

N2G

 

[papasmerf]

T&M will save the customer the most

In a firm quote of not to exceed we must add money in for if comes based on experience. If problems come up we are covered. If no problems come up the profit is higher.

Time and Material will save the most.

 

[new2game]

Not always Papasmurf...

T&M will save the customer the most

In a firm quote of not to exceed we must add money in for if comes based on experience. If problems come up we are covered. If no problems come up the profit is higher.

Time and Material will save the most.

.....if soemone is slow, or not as skilled..it will take longer to complete the job..and you are paying for someone being on the clock, when the job could already be done....and never box yourself in to a "Firm" quote as a contractor...unless you can see everything that there is to see while quoting

N2G

 

[james t kirk]

Funny that you brought that up (about the wage level)....I was thinking about this whole thread this week and I remembered the ONE time in (too many years) that someone acknowledged the value contractors and carpenters played in the big scheme of things. It was an architect who said to me: you know, you guys are greatly unappreciated in general, just because we can draw things on paper doesn't really mean squat. We don't actually BUILD the building/house/barn...we just show someone else how to do it. Without you guys as an integral part of the team, nothing would really ever be built.....

And vice versa. Often times I hear contractors bitch about Architects and Engineers, however, until you have tried to put pen to paper and come up with their work, you should be more gracious.

I realize that some architects and Engineers are not on the ball as are some contractors, however, most contractors think that most architects are stupid and out to lunch. They don't realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the drawings to have thought of every little detail and issue.

 

[papasmerf]

.....if soemone is slow, or not as skilled..it will take longer to complete the job..and you are paying for someone being on the clock, when the job could already be done....and never box yourself in to a "Firm" quote as a contractor...unless you can see everything that there is to see while quoting

N2G

You don't box yourself in
you define terms of work in the quote beyond that there are extras. As for the slow tradesmen you will find that you can still do fine there if you have a defined completion date. I do reccomend that the first time you use a contractor you get a firm quote, second time you get a not to exceed price. By the third time you and the contractor will have a feel for the needs of eachother and T&M works.