Rogue Construction Contractors
- Thread starter Maxie
- Start date
1) You will have to prove that they didn't live up to their part of the contact
2) You will have to prove there was either a verbal or written contract
3) The police won't do anything, you will have to file in small claims court or superior court to sue to get some, or all, of you money back
Watch Holmes on Homes on HGTV to learn more....
Being in this business myself I will say this: The customer is often 75% responsible for problems with a contractor.
I have only ever met ONE customer who realized that to get top notch work, using the best materials, actually costs....gasp, can you believe it?... MONEY. You only get what you pay for, if you want a bargain basement discount price, you will get bargain basement, discount workmanship.
Also: most or many contractors fail to quote additional work once a job is started. If it wasn't written down in the beginning, you the customer are open to all kinds of additional charges once the job is complete. I ALWAYS say to my customers if they ask me to do more work or I have found the work to be done is running over budget due to unforeseen circumstances "Sorry, I hate to say this, but because of x there will be about x amount added to the bill..." or "These things are not part of the original estimate, if you like, I can price them out for you..." or "This wasn't part of the original contract, it will cost x to do this additions...".
Stuff like this always is a headache:
1) I am contracted to replace a bathroom faucet, I quote them x dollars to do it based on the fact that it should only cost me x.
When I show up to do the job I find they've ordered a special faucet from zimbabwe that uses non standard threads, and the adapter needed is only available in thailand and has to be special ordered.
or
Upon removing the existing faucet I find that the copper pipes running to the faucet are so old and corroded that they have to be replaced or the shutoff valves at the fixture are rusted shut and need to be replaced.
2) You will have to prove there was either a verbal or written contract
3) The police won't do anything, you will have to file in small claims court or superior court to sue to get some, or all, of you money back
Watch Holmes on Homes on HGTV to learn more....
Being in this business myself I will say this: The customer is often 75% responsible for problems with a contractor.
I have only ever met ONE customer who realized that to get top notch work, using the best materials, actually costs....gasp, can you believe it?... MONEY. You only get what you pay for, if you want a bargain basement discount price, you will get bargain basement, discount workmanship.
Also: most or many contractors fail to quote additional work once a job is started. If it wasn't written down in the beginning, you the customer are open to all kinds of additional charges once the job is complete. I ALWAYS say to my customers if they ask me to do more work or I have found the work to be done is running over budget due to unforeseen circumstances "Sorry, I hate to say this, but because of x there will be about x amount added to the bill..." or "These things are not part of the original estimate, if you like, I can price them out for you..." or "This wasn't part of the original contract, it will cost x to do this additions...".
Stuff like this always is a headache:
1) I am contracted to replace a bathroom faucet, I quote them x dollars to do it based on the fact that it should only cost me x.
When I show up to do the job I find they've ordered a special faucet from zimbabwe that uses non standard threads, and the adapter needed is only available in thailand and has to be special ordered.
or
Upon removing the existing faucet I find that the copper pipes running to the faucet are so old and corroded that they have to be replaced or the shutoff valves at the fixture are rusted shut and need to be replaced.
To your first question - yes, if you lose and they go after you.Maxie said:
To your second question - depends. If you need to fish a wire across the joists, then you need a hole big enough to drill at every floor joist. If your are running with the joists, then it' s not as many holes.
I have to agree with tboy on this one.
75% of the time people have problems with contractors it's their own fault.
Most people think only with their wallets on a short term basis. They set about doing major renovations to their house and don't even have a set of specs. (Probably because they have no idea on how to go about getting a job done properly.)
They figure that they can call up joe contractor and he will do everything, all inclusive, then they go for the guy with the lowest price. Well guess what, it doesn't work that way. If you are doing a big reno, hire yourself a good architect or good engineer and get them to provide a full set of stamped drawings and specs and expect to pay for that too. Then get a quote from 3 reputable contractors who have references based on the drawings and specs.
Rule No. 1 if it aint in the specs and drawings, then it's extra. At least that way there is an understanding of what is and what is not included in the job.
I am a fan of Holmes, I think he does a great job, and his show is interesting BUT sometimes (not always) the fault lays with the consumer. Often times Holmes will ask - "How much did they quote you?" and the person will say, "10 grand" to which Holmes will reply "this kind of work should cost about 40"
You just know that they probably had 3 or 4 quotes, of which most were 40 grand and one was 10, so they picked the guy for 10. So what did you think buddy?
75% of the time people have problems with contractors it's their own fault.
Most people think only with their wallets on a short term basis. They set about doing major renovations to their house and don't even have a set of specs. (Probably because they have no idea on how to go about getting a job done properly.)
They figure that they can call up joe contractor and he will do everything, all inclusive, then they go for the guy with the lowest price. Well guess what, it doesn't work that way. If you are doing a big reno, hire yourself a good architect or good engineer and get them to provide a full set of stamped drawings and specs and expect to pay for that too. Then get a quote from 3 reputable contractors who have references based on the drawings and specs.
Rule No. 1 if it aint in the specs and drawings, then it's extra. At least that way there is an understanding of what is and what is not included in the job.
I am a fan of Holmes, I think he does a great job, and his show is interesting BUT sometimes (not always) the fault lays with the consumer. Often times Holmes will ask - "How much did they quote you?" and the person will say, "10 grand" to which Holmes will reply "this kind of work should cost about 40"
You just know that they probably had 3 or 4 quotes, of which most were 40 grand and one was 10, so they picked the guy for 10. So what did you think buddy?
It is well known on this board about my feelings about Mr Holmes...I totally agree with his phylosophy of doing it right the first time but I SO disagree with the image her represents on tv of what it is like to do a reno.
The problems with his show are:
1) He ALWAYS sends the client away and does what HE wants, not necessarily what the client wants. He never shows what a normal contractor has to deal with with the customer standing over your shoulder bugging you every 3 seconds or freaking cause you're taking a 20 lbs sledge to the wall he put up last summer.
2) It is SO freaking easy to do a great job with an unlimited budget and unlimited manpower. I mean, shit, if he discovers the project needs new plumbing he calls up the show's plumber and gets it done. EOS. In real life usually the contractor will do it or have to pay someone else to do it...aka EXTRA CHARGE and he NEVER discusses the costs of this with the customer..why? CAUSE THEY AIN'T PAYING.
3) His timing is out to friggin lunch. Recently he did a show where they reno'd an entire house. They vapor barriered and taped the whole house (about 1700 sq ft, 3 bdrm) and called in the drywallers. There is a shot of him saying "look at that, 2 hrs to drywall an entire house, that's what I like". UTTER and COMPLETE bullshit. No taping, No edges, No sanding, nothing. Now any customer that sees that show is going to expect that..
Maxie:
As with all renos, you're looking for info on a box of widgets. There are so many determining factors.
1) where is the existing ceiling circuitry?
2) Do you have any lights there now?
3) where do you want the tracks?
4) Do you want more than one track?
5) If you want more than one, are they paralell or perpenducular to each other?
6) Do you want low voltage or line voltage lights?
7) how many lights do you want on each track?
9) How long are the tracks you'd like to put in?
10) Do you have a drywall ceiling, celing tiles or a drop ceiling?
11) where is the fuse box?
12) Is the switch that controls the ceiling lights (if you have any) in the room, outside the room, on another wall?
13) Is your basement FULLY finished? Some basements only have finished walls in the living area and the backs are just exposed studs.....
14) are all walls interior walls or are there some that are exterior? (exterior walls have vapor barriers and insulation that needs to be dealt with).
15) If you don't have existing celing lights, does your panel have enough room to run another circuit? and if so, can your main supply handle another load?
The problems with his show are:
1) He ALWAYS sends the client away and does what HE wants, not necessarily what the client wants. He never shows what a normal contractor has to deal with with the customer standing over your shoulder bugging you every 3 seconds or freaking cause you're taking a 20 lbs sledge to the wall he put up last summer.
2) It is SO freaking easy to do a great job with an unlimited budget and unlimited manpower. I mean, shit, if he discovers the project needs new plumbing he calls up the show's plumber and gets it done. EOS. In real life usually the contractor will do it or have to pay someone else to do it...aka EXTRA CHARGE and he NEVER discusses the costs of this with the customer..why? CAUSE THEY AIN'T PAYING.
3) His timing is out to friggin lunch. Recently he did a show where they reno'd an entire house. They vapor barriered and taped the whole house (about 1700 sq ft, 3 bdrm) and called in the drywallers. There is a shot of him saying "look at that, 2 hrs to drywall an entire house, that's what I like". UTTER and COMPLETE bullshit. No taping, No edges, No sanding, nothing. Now any customer that sees that show is going to expect that..
Maxie:
As with all renos, you're looking for info on a box of widgets. There are so many determining factors.
1) where is the existing ceiling circuitry?
2) Do you have any lights there now?
3) where do you want the tracks?
4) Do you want more than one track?
5) If you want more than one, are they paralell or perpenducular to each other?
6) Do you want low voltage or line voltage lights?
7) how many lights do you want on each track?
9) How long are the tracks you'd like to put in?
10) Do you have a drywall ceiling, celing tiles or a drop ceiling?
11) where is the fuse box?
12) Is the switch that controls the ceiling lights (if you have any) in the room, outside the room, on another wall?
13) Is your basement FULLY finished? Some basements only have finished walls in the living area and the backs are just exposed studs.....
14) are all walls interior walls or are there some that are exterior? (exterior walls have vapor barriers and insulation that needs to be dealt with).
15) If you don't have existing celing lights, does your panel have enough room to run another circuit? and if so, can your main supply handle another load?
Bang on t-boy
I am a contractor....have been for 20 years........I wish I had the bugets and ability to do what Mr. Holmes does.........but that doe snot exist...and when it does.......man..o...man...there will be the shitty contractor standing in front of you.
I agree there are to many variables involved to answer you question.
it is like asking "Did I get ripped of paying $500 for doing the body repair work on my car?"
to many variables.......
I am a contractor....have been for 20 years........I wish I had the bugets and ability to do what Mr. Holmes does.........but that doe snot exist...and when it does.......man..o...man...there will be the shitty contractor standing in front of you.
I agree there are to many variables involved to answer you question.
it is like asking "Did I get ripped of paying $500 for doing the body repair work on my car?"
to many variables.......
It has been my experience that main difference between used car salesmen and contractors, is that the used car salesman knows when he is lying to you.
An experienced contractor can plan his job out and budget for common circumstances. I have seen contractors charge for unexpected matters in new premises being built to suit. What kind on bullspit is that?
In the end I wouldn't want to walk away feeling like one of us didn't get a good deal. I have yet to meet a contractor who feels the same way.
An experienced contractor can plan his job out and budget for common circumstances. I have seen contractors charge for unexpected matters in new premises being built to suit. What kind on bullspit is that?
In the end I wouldn't want to walk away feeling like one of us didn't get a good deal. I have yet to meet a contractor who feels the same way.
You have no idea how the contractor feels in this regard.Daddio said:
The contractor has absolutley ZERO desire to be constantly asking the client for more money simply because 1) the scope of work was never specified correctly or 2) because the engineer/architect missed something on the drawings.
Any good contactor will tell you his objective is to do the job as specified and get on to the next one.
How much should it cost to fix the frontage, rotting wood replaced with that "cardboard" siding, on a house with 8 windows needing replacement, pot lights in a 3 room size basement (how many should go in the ceiling) and brick and cement steps on a porch, garage doors painted and a few other minor improvements, 40k? the frontage is roughly 9 by 16ft high.
Well, I won't say there aren't any unreputable contractors out there but there are more reputable ones, than not...Daddio said:
To answer your comment about the experienced contractor:
- Even an experienced contractor can miss a couple of things when surveying a job....should he be penalized for it? Should the customer get it for free? If the contractor knew about it beforehand and put it in the quote, would the customer NOT be paying for it?
- Sure, we budget for common circumstances, but as a customer, would you want us to charge you automatically to put knew piping and valves in if you didn't need them? Then you'd call us a ripoff artist for selling you something you didn't need. You've hit the nail right on the head about what we face everyday, we're damned if we put it in the quote and sell it to you and damned if we don't because you bitch about having to pay extra for something that you need.
As for contractors charging for unforeseen circumstances in new construction. Have you ever heard of things like, maybe the soil can't support the structure or there's an underground stream? How about bedrock that needs to be removed to make room for the footings? How the FUCK is a contractor supposed to know that? I don't know about all of them but I sure as hell don't own a ground radar unit and my xray specs don't work like they used to.
There are also things like:
-Furnaces - different model being shipped which require different connections, specs etc
-Architects making small changes that cause us all kinds of problems when he doesn't bother telling the guy who is putting in the *&*)#@)(*& WALL
- Clients changing their minds about how big the closet in No 2 bedroom is...did you know that if he changes it ONE frickin inch it could change every wall on that floor?
-Changing from a soaker tub to a jacuzzi
-Changing the tile from ceramic to porcelain...(that is a major fucking headache) or, god forbid GLASS tiles (oh I hate those fucking things)
- Changing the switches from a standard toggle to a decora...did you know that doubles the price of the switch and just count how many can be in an average home, who's supposed to eat THAT cost?
Let me ask you again, say the builder estimated that he needs 300 linear feet of 1/2" copper pipe. Then he finds out he actually needs 350...should the CUSTOMER get it for free?
The thing that pisses me off the most about your comment is the fact that you think you should feel you 'got a good deal'. You SHOULDN'T feel you got a good deal you should feel that you got GOOD WORKMANSHIP...the deal so to speak is secondary......The customer should feel that he paid the going rate and got a great job done....End of Fucking Story....
Somewhere between $200 and 200,000 dollars. Here's the first example of how the client makes trouble for himself: You can't get a reasonably accurate estimate without a reasonably detailed description of the job. Since this is not a skill most homeowners have, your best bet is to get yopurself educated by having a number of guys come to the site and give you estimates. As each one quotes, you'll learn more of the terminology and standards that make a good, clear job spec. Be sure you tell each of them the same overall job requirements,—writing them down is good—and you can add what details you've learned to the spec as you go: "new roofing" becomes "asphalt shingles" becomes "20yr three-tab ashaplt shingles" for example.Maxie said:
As far as the job spec you provided here:
Sorry, no one but you knows what you mean by "cardboard" siding, and don't you want all the frontage to match, or is it really just the "rotting wood" you want replaced? You say the windows need replacement, but are they in the job, and if so, how big are they, what are the new ones to be made of, and how should they operate: up and down (double-hung) sliding side to side or like doors (casement). Only you know how big a three-room sized basement is, and only you can decide how many lights you need/want. You say "…brick and cement steps on a porch" without saying whether they exist and need repair, whether you want such steps where nothing now exists, or whether existing steps are to be demolished and replaced by etc. never mind how high and wide the stairs are. Finally, a small bedroom in a suburban house might have a wall only 9' wide, and the ceiling's maybe 8' high, so a 9'x16'H frontage for a whole house is sorta unusual. And don't forget to spec who disposes of the garbage.
All that said—and I didn't mean to be harsh—if you have 40K to spend, you can get a lot done, especially if you are very clear about what the job is, so the contractor can plan efficiently.
Here's a little story for you:
I was doing this job (kitchen) just finishing the trim etc. that the home owner didnt' have the skill to do. While I was doing all this stuff they decided they want a custom range hood.
They get some prices for stainless, brushed alum etc and they are all around $1800.00. They didn't want a wooden one like many kitchen manf. provide cause they are IMHO butt ugly.
So I spend about 8 hrs doing up drawings, taking dimensions, researching the mechanics etc. and they decide on one of my designs.
I quote them $1400.00 they flip, well we only wanted to pay about $300.00. I said, well, you buy the guts and I will build you one for $300.00 but you have to finish it. Oh no, we don't want to do that. I say ok, you buy the stain and I will stain it for you for $100.00. BTW I AM NOT A FINISHER they charge about $100.00 an hour not $100.00 a job....
So I make the thing, takes me about 20 hrs to build, veneer, fitting and moutning their guts etc. They get the stain, it is the wrong colour (doesn't match the kitchen). I just happen to have some that is close so I give em a sample (took about 2 hrs to produce the sample and deliver it) they say ok. So I stain it and clear coat it. BTW, took me about 6 hrs of blending etc to get the stain close.....
I install the thing and it doesn't match exactly and, of course I warned them, the stain job isn't 100% perfect. What happens? they bitch and moan about the colour, and it isn't exactly what they wanted. (took me about 3 hrs to install plus I had to pay for some ducting that they forgot to buy).
Keeping track of my hours yet? Let's add em up:
Drawings: 8 hrs
construction: 20 hrs
Install: 3 hrs
Sample: 2 hrs
Staining: 6 hrs
Material: (cherry veneer) $80.00
Ply core: $30.00
Ducting: $20.00
fasteners/Contact cement: $20.00
Stain and Clear coat: $20.00
Ok so I've got 39 hrs and $170.00 you do the math....I ended up making about $13.00 an hour on it and they BITCHED about it.
I said to them, look, if you wanted the $1400.00 piece, I could have made it for you and gotten a pro to finish it. But you didn't, you wanted the $400.00 piece and that is what you received....
LESSON: IF YOU WANT TO PAY 1/3 THE PRICE OF SOMETHING YOU WILL GET AN ITEM 1/3 THE QUALITY....
I was doing this job (kitchen) just finishing the trim etc. that the home owner didnt' have the skill to do. While I was doing all this stuff they decided they want a custom range hood.
They get some prices for stainless, brushed alum etc and they are all around $1800.00. They didn't want a wooden one like many kitchen manf. provide cause they are IMHO butt ugly.
So I spend about 8 hrs doing up drawings, taking dimensions, researching the mechanics etc. and they decide on one of my designs.
I quote them $1400.00 they flip, well we only wanted to pay about $300.00. I said, well, you buy the guts and I will build you one for $300.00 but you have to finish it. Oh no, we don't want to do that. I say ok, you buy the stain and I will stain it for you for $100.00. BTW I AM NOT A FINISHER they charge about $100.00 an hour not $100.00 a job....
So I make the thing, takes me about 20 hrs to build, veneer, fitting and moutning their guts etc. They get the stain, it is the wrong colour (doesn't match the kitchen). I just happen to have some that is close so I give em a sample (took about 2 hrs to produce the sample and deliver it) they say ok. So I stain it and clear coat it. BTW, took me about 6 hrs of blending etc to get the stain close.....
I install the thing and it doesn't match exactly and, of course I warned them, the stain job isn't 100% perfect. What happens? they bitch and moan about the colour, and it isn't exactly what they wanted. (took me about 3 hrs to install plus I had to pay for some ducting that they forgot to buy).
Keeping track of my hours yet? Let's add em up:
Drawings: 8 hrs
construction: 20 hrs
Install: 3 hrs
Sample: 2 hrs
Staining: 6 hrs
Material: (cherry veneer) $80.00
Ply core: $30.00
Ducting: $20.00
fasteners/Contact cement: $20.00
Stain and Clear coat: $20.00
Ok so I've got 39 hrs and $170.00 you do the math....I ended up making about $13.00 an hour on it and they BITCHED about it.
I said to them, look, if you wanted the $1400.00 piece, I could have made it for you and gotten a pro to finish it. But you didn't, you wanted the $400.00 piece and that is what you received....
LESSON: IF YOU WANT TO PAY 1/3 THE PRICE OF SOMETHING YOU WILL GET AN ITEM 1/3 THE QUALITY....
Don't be silly. A used car salesman can be compared to a real estate you buy a resale house from, but a contractor is either like your mechanic or like the factory that builds the car.Daddio said:
In my experience it is quite often the case that my mechanic phones to say he has to do additional work, that I didn't know enough to forsee and ask him to do. In that case, I'm just like the homeowner who didn't know to get the drywall hung flat and plumb, when the trim carpenter says the whole job will take longer than he could have estimated from the drawings.
And just imagine how firm a price you might have gotten for that cute PT Cruiser when it was just a concept model in the Chrysler exhibit at the car show. Wanna bet there'd be a change or two—or two thousand—in both car and cost before you got the keys? And would you really have speeded production up if you'd sat in the design department at the plant?
The difference between client and contractor is that the contractor can show you to the penny where he got all the costs that went into the quote. The client who 'just wants a good deal' has no concept of taking equal responsibility for the job's quality, but where does he imagine the '5% off sweetner' he demands is going to come from? And when the client says, "And I'll still get the quality I'm paying for?" And the contractor, who was told it was a $100,000 job, but found he'd only get it if he bid 95K says, "Sure", who's really the liar?
The contracting home improvement industry needs to standardize its business. I would not fix things or buy a smaller property because down the line it's going to be a headache to fix things. That said the industries growth as more throw away homes are built is questionable.
I'd rather have a "leak" than get ripped off by a contractor. If I'm not smart enough to maintain a house I won't live in one...
I'd rather have a "leak" than get ripped off by a contractor. If I'm not smart enough to maintain a house I won't live in one...
Buddy, it IS pretty standard....what do you think building codes are?Maxie said:
Although some contractors have an inside to some materials where some of us have to buy retail. Some have more skilled labour and some have less....that is where price flucuations will come into play.
But dude, a piece of drywall is a piece of drywall. Where your "standard" comes in is quality of work and you cannot standardize that. You GET what you PAY for, a wise man once said:
It is dumb to pay too much but it is idiotic to pay too little.....
But, why is it a headache to fix things? Because you don't know how? because you need specialized tools? Why not learn? Hell home desparate has classes and seminars ALL the time.....Just because you invested in a house doesn't mean you can't accept the responsibility of home ownership. Responsibility means learning about all the systems in the house, at least the basics.....
I bet you drive a car and don't have any idea how to change the timing belt or even the sparkplugs......
BTW maxie: your leak could be any number of things that won't be discovered until you start ripping into the job. It could be just a loose shingle but if you let it go, you could have major water damage...better get that looked into....Here's a thought: why don't you climb up into your attic with a flashlight and take a look around? See if there is any water damage to the rafters, insulation, etc. Try to find out where it is...Then go up on your roof (with a safety line of course) and look for loose shingles etc in the area that you saw was wet from the inside.....Be PROactive instead of REACTIVE.....
I agree with you that all contracting should be standardized. This would set prices, quality and most of all prevent customers from saying that is too much. As a homeowner you must admit that you think something is worth say 100 dollars to fix, yet you find out that contactors want from 3500 dollars to 5300 dollars for that job you would do for 100 dollars; parts and labor. Now standard pricing would let you know that 4700 dollars for that 100 dollar job is what you have to pay. You will feel better knowing that you are paying the absolute best price you can get. You know that all contractors are created equal and will do the minimum standards for your job. You will not have to worry that one contractor would be better qualified. Minimum stardards will be set and met.
