It is not a $500 fine (a fine is a conviction that stays on your record). It is an enrollment fee for the John School programme (that is meant to cover the costs of the programme).asher645 said:
Syn
Regarding John School
- Thread starter asher645
- Start date
Syn
Thanks for all the responses. I guess its not a bad idea to do john school before the date as that way this matter will be settled on the day of disclosure and I won't have to wait for the next date. If anyone has done that in the past please do let me know if taken the john school course before the date will be helpful.
Also, will I have to wait for 6 months to have the record sealed or will the case be closed of on the first day... I am hoping to not have a criminal record on file of any kind as that is another long process to get that record removed.
Also, will I have to wait for 6 months to have the record sealed or will the case be closed of on the first day... I am hoping to not have a criminal record on file of any kind as that is another long process to get that record removed.
One note of caution:
Does the "diversion" result in the charge being withdrawn, or does it result in a discharge? This is important.
An "absolute discharge" or a "conditional discharge" in Canada are considered more or less the same as having the charge withdrawn. HOWEVER since the United States does not have any similar concept in their legal system the do not recognize these concepts. Instead they treat them as if they were convictions with a zero length sentence.
The implication is that from the point of view of US border guards you have a criminal record and may be denied entry into the United States.
I don't know what our funding situation is like but try and spend a few bucks on a lawyer to have this handled properly.
Does the "diversion" result in the charge being withdrawn, or does it result in a discharge? This is important.
An "absolute discharge" or a "conditional discharge" in Canada are considered more or less the same as having the charge withdrawn. HOWEVER since the United States does not have any similar concept in their legal system the do not recognize these concepts. Instead they treat them as if they were convictions with a zero length sentence.
The implication is that from the point of view of US border guards you have a criminal record and may be denied entry into the United States.
I don't know what our funding situation is like but try and spend a few bucks on a lawyer to have this handled properly.
The US will recognize an Absolute Discharge. They see a conditional discharge as a conviction.fuji said:
But John School means the charge is diverted ... so it is not a discharge.
Syn
Do you have a source for that? It is contrary to my understanding.syn said:
My understanding is that what is actually key at the US border is an admission or finding of guilt to a criminal act, or actually, just admitting to the "essential elements" of a crime. There was a case of a guy who admitted to having used and carried drugs in the past being permanently inadmissible to the US since he had admitted--to the border guard--the essential elements of a crime. Since in order to get an absolute discharge you have to admit guilt that puts you in hot water at the border.
Whether or not a discharge (or any conviction) is a problem at the border depends on what it is for. You can still enter the US even if convicted of most minor crimes, but for example ANY conviction for ANY drug crime makes you inadmissible.
I don't know how the US views a sex crime at the border, you might be able to enter with a minor one on your record, or maybe not--consult a lawyer.
The other question is whether a "diversion" results in a discharge or in the charges being dropped, and whether your admission of guilt is registered anywhere that a US border guard would be able to see it, the way they can see a discharge in their computer.
If they can't see it, and you don't tell them about it, then I guess you're OK.
If there is a waiting period before the record is sealed it would also be very wise NOT to cross the US border until the record has been sealed. Once they have a copy of the record they will hold on to it forever in their US computer system, even if Canada deletes or seals the Canadian copy.
You absolutely need to speak to a criminal lawyer. Most offer a free consultation. DO IT!!! A little embarrassment now could save you untold grief down the road.
My understanding is that any charge will get you scrutinized at the border. Anything that involves guilt (conviction or otherwise) may make you ineligible to cross the border. The bottom line is that the border officer has discretion whether to let you in or not (those with criminal records are automatically barred unless they have special dispensation from the US gov't). If you have a charge for drug dealing, it won't matter if you were convicted or not. Chances are they'll turn you away.
Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude (which may include prostitution, I'm not sure) are grounds for being barred and ineligible for a waiver.
Pardons won't help you. The USA doesn't recognize them.
Some helpful links:
http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/infocntr/factsh/pardonfaq_e.htm
http://www.canadianlegal.org/travel_waivers.php#5
Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude (which may include prostitution, I'm not sure) are grounds for being barred and ineligible for a waiver.
Pardons won't help you. The USA doesn't recognize them.
Some helpful links:
http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/infocntr/factsh/pardonfaq_e.htm
http://www.canadianlegal.org/travel_waivers.php#5
On a non-conviction, you can apply to have your fingerprints and photos wiped from the system and barring a good reason the police will do so. You need to make sure the RCMP know as well because you want to make sure CPIC gets the request.
Your "contact" with police can remain on that local police service's database as they use it for future reference. But that's only for the local police force that arrested you.
Once you've been convicted, a pardon only helps you so much and there's hoops to jump through.
At the border, being charged can be just as bad as a conviction, depending on the charge. A conviction means automatic denial of entry unless you have an INS travel waiver. A charge means possible denial of entry, especially if the charge is for a Crime Involving Moral Turpitude (e.g., drugs, violence, sex crimes, etc.). Customs officials can always choose to deny you entry.
Your "contact" with police can remain on that local police service's database as they use it for future reference. But that's only for the local police force that arrested you.
Once you've been convicted, a pardon only helps you so much and there's hoops to jump through.
At the border, being charged can be just as bad as a conviction, depending on the charge. A conviction means automatic denial of entry unless you have an INS travel waiver. A charge means possible denial of entry, especially if the charge is for a Crime Involving Moral Turpitude (e.g., drugs, violence, sex crimes, etc.). Customs officials can always choose to deny you entry.
You are correct. There is a difference between a criminal record and just showing up in the police database. Ten years after you were arrested and charged (assuming a non-conviction), chances are you won't show up on a criminal records check. You may still show up on the database of the local police force that arrested you. If you don't take steps after a non-conviction, however, your information may remain on the system for quite some time before it gets purged. That's why it's important to request the fingerprints and photos be destroyed. This process is not the same as the pardon process!thompo69 said:
This one touches on stuff both sides of the border.
http://www.walnet.org/csis/groups/swav/johnschool/johnschool.html
Wow this is scary. I have seen undercover cops on Queen st near Osssington. It's hard to tell if they are a working girl or some girl from one of the neighbouring bars/clubs.
http://www.walnet.org/csis/groups/swav/johnschool/johnschool.html
Wow this is scary. I have seen undercover cops on Queen st near Osssington. It's hard to tell if they are a working girl or some girl from one of the neighbouring bars/clubs.
Hi all,
Just to update... well you can't join the John School before your first court appearance. Basically when I went to get register, I was told they need the paperwork which I can't get before my first court date and thus they can't really register me until I get the papers from the court... so I am trying to find out another way around but for now this is what I have been told.
Just to update... well you can't join the John School before your first court appearance. Basically when I went to get register, I was told they need the paperwork which I can't get before my first court date and thus they can't really register me until I get the papers from the court... so I am trying to find out another way around but for now this is what I have been told.
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I wonder do they give you a diploma if you 'graduate' from John school?
Seriously though. We have such a huge backlog in the courts I don't see how having this take up the court's time serves the public any good (I know that promoting streetwalking is not a good thing but still....Just my opinion)
Seriously though. We have such a huge backlog in the courts I don't see how having this take up the court's time serves the public any good (I know that promoting streetwalking is not a good thing but still....Just my opinion)
That's a very good site. It indicates that a charge dealt with by "diversion" is not entered into CPIC and no criminal record will exist.monotone said:
So the OP's goal is to get a diversion, after confirming with a lawyer that this information is correct.
If you can't get into J.S. you might be able to favourably impress the judge or prosecution by booking in with a psychologist to discuss the issues you have with women. Speak with your lawyer to find out of this would be effective evidence of your strong intentions to reform yourself.
(Not that I personally believe the language I just uesd, I'm just trying to see it the way the court might.)
After this stick to outcall services which are legal...
