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Recession

Esco!

Banned
Nov 10, 2004
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Toront Ho
I was talking to a guy in my building this morning (who's done very well for himself), and he said the U.S. govt has learned from the 1981 and 1990 recessions to not (significantly) raise interest rates in booming times and lowering them when on the brink of a recession, thereby creating a perpetual "easy money policy"

He says this new strategy may keep us from going through severe, lengthy recessions.
And when we do have a recession it'll only last a few months instead of years and wont be nearly as bad as 1981 and 1990
I dont know enough about macro-economics to form an opinion

So any truth to what he's saying??
Any good economists on TERB that would agree/disagree with that????
 

Aardvark154

New member
Jan 19, 2006
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Esco! said:
I was talking to a guy in my building this morning (who's done very well for himself), and he said the U.S. govt has learned from the 1981 and 1990 recessions to not (significantly) raise interest rates in booming times and lowering them when on the brink of a recession, thereby creating a perpetual "easy money policy"

He says this new strategy may keep us from going through severe, lengthy recessions.
And when we do have a recession it'll only last a few months instead of years and wont be nearly as bad as 1981 and 1990
I dont know enough about macro-economics to form an opinion

So any truth to what he's saying??
Any good economists on TERB that would agree/disagree with that????
It looks like we're going to get the chance to see. I hope it's a short term dip.
 

sailorsix

New member
Sep 25, 2006
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The fact that the Asian stock markets have concluded that Bush & Co's plans are faulty says it all. The house of cards that is the US economy is going to make it very difficult for the new President to manouver.

A 3/4 % drop in the Fed this AM...even they don't have any faith in Bush.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
23,979
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A .75% drop - that's incredible. :eek: More to come no doubt.

The Bank of Canada lowered this morning as scheduled by 0.25% bringing the total to 0.5% in the last month with a clear statement of more to come. If you have cash, and a secure job, it will be a good time to borrow right now.

If you don't, it could be a rocky ride.

I hate recessions that we talk ourselves into.
 

Cinema Face

New member
Mar 1, 2003
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The Middle Kingdom
You're right. The US govn't has learned a lot about managing the economy from the previous recessions. It's unlikely that we'll get the major recessions that we used to.

Also, don't forget, this is an election year. The feds will be doing everything they can to keep the economy floating as high as possible, spending money, keeping interest rates artificially low, etc... The real downturn will probably start in 2009.

The problem is that people are basically sheep. This is why we have the panic selloffs and such. There is still some momentum in the economy still until the end of the year, (presidential election).
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
23,979
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TSX only down 40 some odd right now (knock on wood)

Dow is down 450, despite the rate cut.

Look out below.....
 

Dewalt

Banned
Feb 8, 2005
831
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Awesome!

Now housing prices will become realistic and I can make electronic stores fight for my business for the new plasma tv I want.
 

LatinDancer

New member
Nov 28, 2006
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Esco! said:
I was talking to a guy in my building this morning (who's done very well for himself), and he said the U.S. govt has learned from the 1981 and 1990 recessions to not (significantly) raise interest rates in booming times and lowering them when on the brink of a recession, thereby creating a perpetual "easy money policy"

He says this new strategy may keep us from going through severe, lengthy recessions.
And when we do have a recession it'll only last a few months instead of years and wont be nearly as bad as 1981 and 1990
I dont know enough about macro-economics to form an opinion

So any truth to what he's saying??
Any good economists on TERB that would agree/disagree with that????
If you listen to CNBC enough, you'll find that a short recession is the prevailing opinion due to both fiscal and monetary instruments. Fiscal stimulus in the U.S. ($150 billion in tax rebate) and lower interest rates will eventually turn the economy around. The recession this time around is expected to last only a few months. Canada has been in step with the U.S. in regards monetary policy. Hopefully, there'll be fiscal stimulus as well (not just a reduction of 1% GST).

Another thing, if the Dems win, they'll try to bring the troops home from Iraq and the comcomittant spending will be redirected home - they are spending billions there, money that could be spent for infrastructure improvements, and other urgent needs in the US.
 

Esco!

Banned
Nov 10, 2004
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Toront Ho
Sukdeep said:
I agree with the not raising rates in boom times, but the part about not lowering rates is just bulldoodie.

The Fed has been lowering rates to defer the slowdown. It has been a policy of "easy money".
Read my post, I did write lowering when on the brink of a recession ;)
 

Esco!

Banned
Nov 10, 2004
12,606
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Toront Ho
LatinDancer said:
If you listen to CNBC enough, you'll find that a short recession is the prevailing opinion due to both fiscal and monetary instruments. Fiscal stimulus in the U.S. ($150 billion in tax rebate) and lower interest rates will eventually turn the economy around. The recession this time around is expected to last only a few months. Canada has been in step with the U.S. in regards monetary policy. Hopefully, there'll be fiscal stimulus as well (not just a reduction of 1% GST).
But he said the key was to not raise interest during a boom.
Back in the 80's and 90's the govt made the mistake of raising rates at the height of a boom,
then lowering them in a recession.

Now they learned from that, so they dont raise them (significantly) in a boom, and simply
drop them in a recession
 

21pro

Crotch Sniffer
Oct 22, 2003
7,830
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Caledon East
No economic policy works in all downturns basically because they get exploited.

)"Lost in the Congressional debate over how to provide stimulus is a more fundamental question: Does anyone remember how we got to where we're at?

The answer is Greenspan put the pedal to the medal by irresponsibly slashing interest rates to 1%. Banks thought this was free money and responded by borrowing short and lending long to finance all kinds of risky endeavors but typically centered around residential and commercial real estate.

Residential real estate has long since imploded. Now, a Glut Of Mall Space Headed Our Way will start an implosion in commercial.

Pointing The Finger At Greenspan

I have been pointing the finger at Greenspan for years. Fingers are now flying from many corners. Economist Anna Schwartz blames Fed for sub-prime crisis.

The high priestess of US monetarism - a revered figure at the Fed - says the central bank is itself the chief cause of the credit bubble, and now seems stunned as the consequences of its own actions engulf the financial system. "The new group at the Fed is not equal to the problem that faces it," she says, daring to utter a thought that fellow critics mostly utter sotto voce.

"There never would have been a sub-prime mortgage crisis if the Fed had been alert. This is something Alan Greenspan must answer for," she says. According to Schwartz the original sin of the Bernanke-Greenspan Fed was to hold rates at 1 per cent from 2003 to June 2004, long after the dotcom bubble was over. "It is clear that monetary policy was too accommodative. Rates of 1 per cent were bound to encourage all kinds of risky behaviour," says Schwartz.

She is scornful of Greenspan's campaign to clear his name by blaming the bubble on an Asian saving glut, which purportedly created stimulus beyond the control of the Fed by driving down global bond rates. "This attempt to exculpate himself is not convincing. The Fed failed to confront something that was evident. It can't be blamed on global events," she says.

The lesson of the 1930s is that swift action is needed once the credit system starts to implode: when banks hoard money, refusing to pass on funds. The Fed must tear up the rule-book. Yet it has been hesitant for three months, relying on lubricants - not shock therapy.

Anna has the right target, unfortunately she has the wrong cure: more of the same medicine that made us sick in the first place. The lesson of the 1930's has not been learned. The proper lesson is that there are eventually enormous consequences for unsound credit bubbles. The Fed has responded to every credit crisis with liquidity. Eventually liquidity fails. It fails when the problem becomes solvency not liquidity."(snip)
 
Jul 4, 2002
380
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All these conjectures are based on past experiences. The relaity is that th world has changed. NA has lost its industrial base and it is not coming back. NAmericans have NO savings. THe financial markets have tried to be too clever. The subprime is just one area. The amount of HIGH HIGH leveraged transactions that have been done at rediculous prices over the last years put even more risk in the bank portfolios. Ditto credit cards which are also sold off like subprime mortgages. Look for one or two major banks to go.

Another problem with recovery from subprime is the aging population. OLder folks means fewer buyers for resale homes. Lower demands means lower prices over next 29 years while baby boomers get older.

McKinsey did a neat analysis showing that the US dollar can continue it slide over next five years and be devalued as much as 30%. That means all those cheap imports are no longer so cheap. INflation rears its ugly head (its already around the corner) and we end up in the same shape Japan was in. They lowered interest to zero, gave money away and they didn't come out of their slump for years.

Lets not assume the slump will be short lived.

Good news is there are plenty of buying opportunities for those out there with their powder dry. I have been in cash and cash equivalents since November.
 

Meister

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2003
4,109
120
63
Top Northerner said:
All these conjectures are based on past experiences. The relaity is that th world has changed. NA has lost its industrial base and it is not coming back. NAmericans have NO savings. THe financial markets have tried to be too clever. The subprime is just one area. The amount of HIGH HIGH leveraged transactions that have been done at rediculous prices over the last years put even more risk in the bank portfolios. Ditto credit cards which are also sold off like subprime mortgages. Look for one or two major banks to go.

Another problem with recovery from subprime is the aging population. OLder folks means fewer buyers for resale homes. Lower demands means lower prices over next 29 years while baby boomers get older.

McKinsey did a neat analysis showing that the US dollar can continue it slide over next five years and be devalued as much as 30%. That means all those cheap imports are no longer so cheap. INflation rears its ugly head (its already around the corner) and we end up in the same shape Japan was in. They lowered interest to zero, gave money away and they didn't come out of their slump for years.

Lets not assume the slump will be short lived.

Good news is there are plenty of buying opportunities for those out there with their powder dry. I have been in cash and cash equivalents since November.
Very good analysis.
I would also suggest to reduce your debt, ie. mortgage, credit cards, loans. There is nothing worse than having high monthly payments during a recession.
 

Meister

Well-known member
Apr 17, 2003
4,109
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Sukdeep said:
The credit situation is scary, frightening really. Mortgages were only the tip of the iceberg (being the largest single debt element in most households). As Top Northerner points out, credit cards are a looming risk.
Very true. And the Fed's actions to cut rates aggressively might get us into the same shit that got us into this mess in the first place, easy money, zero down houses...

But, another scary scenerio is the commercial deals. All these new investment companies you never heard of before controlling billions of dollars with very little cash they put in in the first place because they put together these package deals through other lending instruments.

Yep, house of cards.
 

porn_lover

Member
Dec 19, 2007
80
5
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Sukdeep said:
The credit situation is scary, frightening really. Mortgages were only the tip of the iceberg (being the largest single debt element in most households). As Top Northerner points out, credit cards are a looming risk.

I recall reading an article about auto loans as well. Apparently, rolling loans from one car to the next has been allowed in the US for some time. (e.g., if you owe $10,000 on your current car, the balance is simply added to the purchase price of your next car loan). So, now you have people who own $25,000 worth of car(s), but owe $40,000+ ?!?!?

Unreal. There's a rude awakening in store for a lot of people.
It does not just stop there, take student credit loan too and basically any loans you can think of.
Because the lenders package these loans into something exotic and sells it in the market and now it back firing. They made their money and are gone. Who wants to be the janitor? It is a MESS.
 

Gyaos

BOBA FETT
Aug 17, 2001
6,172
0
0
Heaven, definately Heaven
I think America will be fine if they just wipe out everyone's credit card debt. But the "for profit" banks say no. Well, shut them down. Create a depression or get the cash locked up in the Baghdad Museum.

Gyaos Baltar.
 

barrowing

Member
Jan 14, 2007
71
8
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Top Northerner said:
I have been in cash and cash equivalents since November.
Smart man! This is how you beat the market and can now take advantage of the current downturn buying opportunities. In any economic event there are always winners and losers.
 

GOLEAFSGO67

Banned
Nov 2, 2007
924
1
0
Heres another thought

I know of over 10,000 High Rise Condo Units along the South Beach area in Miami -Ritzy area...that people have put down payments on (very little down) and these new high rises are all closing soon.

They were originally priced at 350k and up. Large buildings.

However, they were bought by Investors..who had no intention of living there...or even closing them....and TODAY..cannot get mortgages on one....much less the 5 or ten each of them bought for speculation. Bank only value them at 100K and up.....so.........

The gate is about to slam on this area. I know other investors (Insurance Co. etc) right now are looking to sink money into these projects and buy up the whole building at 100 k per unit. Ouch. Excellent opportunity for big money (Pensions, Insurance Co. etc) to get deals!!!!

And the builder eventaully has to close to get his lenders out of the way. So he sells the lot...cheap!!! The builders survive...the Investors of old disappear. And someone is set to make a lot of dough with the new purchases at 100k. Heck..sit on it for a couples years..let the building get completed..then start selling in an improved market. Dam I wish i had cash!!!!

Anyone looking for a nice condo in South Beach?????????

Thats just one example of 1000's of projects...and thats just Real Estate....in the US that will have to work their way through this recession!!!.
 
E

enduser1

Sukdeep said:
The credit situation is scary, frightening really. Mortgages were only the tip of the iceberg (being the largest single debt element in most households). As Top Northerner points out, credit cards are a looming risk.

I recall reading an article about auto loans as well. Apparently, rolling loans from one car to the next has been allowed in the US for some time. (e.g., if you owe $10,000 on your current car, the balance is simply added to the purchase price of your next car loan). So, now you have people who own $25,000 worth of car(s), but owe $40,000+ ?!?!?

Unreal. There's a rude awakening in store for a lot of people.
Dude this is my scenario:

As the economy deteriorates circumstances will lead many to believe that they have no choice and/or realize that things are going to get so bad they have nothing to loose. You will see a run up in debt as people max out payday loans, personal loans, and credit cards.

We should see a huge 'urge to splurge' in all kinds of goods and services as people 'stock up' for what they will perceive as 'hard times'. It will be like Paris in 1914 and 1940, there will be one hell of a party before the baddies come in.

Watch of a spike in retail sales and a celebration at the government level as they announce the "Consumer is leading America out of recession". That will be a true statement. The consumer will be leading America into a depression. Need a new HDTV? Blu Ray?


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