Racial Profiling & the Escort Biz

[spartan5782]

Kathy,

While I agree with most of what you are saying, how would you suggest the issue get dicussed? The conversation needs to start some where. Kiarra

Well, without trying to get too scientific and bore the hell outta everyone, let's start with my particular "problem".

Melanin..a skin pigment found in "ALL" of us. Nature instilled it in us to protect against the sun's ultraviolet rays. Mine is "visible" due to my ancestors living in the very sun drenched, hot climate and nature passing this innate protection along whether it's needed or not. Your European and colder climate ancestors didn't have the need, and yours only come to surface when needed (tanning on the beach...sitting under UV rays in a tanning salon..etc). So, what does all that have to do with Blacks "behaving" in a certain manner v/s Whites (sticking with skin color for the moment)?

Absolutely nothing!! There are Blacks in every part of the world as there are Whites in every part of the world. A European Black will act and sound European ie Lennox Lewis..Heavyweight Champ. He's British...period. Happens to be Black. There's a lot of them over there..no big deal.

Our last US census counted (undercounted..different conversation) 40 million Blacks in this country. There were lawyers, doctors, students, business professionals (such as myself), farmers, factory workers...just like the 193 million Whites that were counted. Again..no big deal.

The problem comes when people try to draw conclusions on what they see "visibly" based primarily on unsupported myths and, God help us, the media. TV portrayed Blacks in the roles of pimps, pushers and players in the 60s & 70s..., hell, those were the only roles we could get in Hollywood, so it's been portrayed and obviously believed. Aggressive, angry and illiterate, that's the perception.

You think out of 40 million Blacks in this country alone, there might be 1 or 2 that don't fit that model? Hell, Canada's entire population was 33 million in your 2001 census. Believe it or not, there are still some people in my country that think all Canadians are riding around on dog sleds living in igloos. Misperceptions are a bitch!! lol.

Ok, so where am I going with this...I can't begin to change people's misperceptions and bias'. There are good and bad in every color..every nationality, religion..etc. If...and I say if, there are a million (big number) aggressive, angry and illiterate Black Americans...what do you say about the other 39 million? If there are 5 million of the same White Americans (keep it proportional), what do you say to the other 188 million? What about the rest of the world? Do you really think your experiences provided a fair sampling of data to draw conclusions such as the stereotypes given in this thread?

I couldn't begin to categorize all Southern Whites from my country as being cross burning, lynching racists...I'd be wrong as hell. And I've got dead relatives in graves to support my bad ass theory!! But what did I say..193 million Whites, 30 million living in the South. There could be 100,000 that would hate my guts to look at me, but why the hell would I say "ALL" Southern Whites are...... It doesn't fly. I've got to take each "person" on their own merits. If they prove to be an *******...so be it, life goes on. That's one. If I run into 100 assholes, bad luck, but again..life goes on. I can't condemn all Whites saying "What a bunch of racist assholes". Jesus, there's 193 million in this country and I ran into 100 that hates me...big shit!

So, back to our Hobby. Escorts, think what you will, for whatever reason you give it. If you feel a certain way and don't want to serve Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, East Indians..etc., that's your business. There are way too many Escorts that will for it to be a concern. If it was a restaurant or apartments, I'd be on a picket line joining the boycott. But as Indies, this is your private business and it's personal..albeit you charge for the services. All I say is that you advertise that fact to advise the potential "Horney" client not to even call. A rejection such as "I don't do Blacks" even on the phone is very hurtful, not to mention if you make it all the way to the door! Again, if you don't want to see me...I sure don't want to blow a grand on you!! That's only fair.

I STILL LOVE THIS HOBBY!!
Cheers

 

[CyberGoth]

rejections should be handled carefully, they're always difficult... if mishandled can lead to chaos and hurt feelings and maybe even serious amounts of anger.

rejections based on race, are just plain rude.

rejections with clear concise timely explanations work best, [this avoids BS later on]

I've seen adds in NOW that specify "respectful whites only" or similar things... utterly obnoxious.

respect works both ways. its not respectful of the person who places the word "respectful whites only" in an advert. as a white male I'd never in a million years hire someone who says "respectful whites only"

oh well.


computers are simple, humans are overly complex and messy.

humans are more fun and you can have interesting conversations with them occasionally.

 

[joebob]

I do not know Kiarra, but for the record I think some of you are being a bit harsh in your responses to her. When people feel that they cannot discuss their perception of differences openly we start down the path of the same ridiculous politically correct atmosphere we currently have in the U.S.

I do not believe that we are discussing differences in race but rather differences in culture. I do not think that the color of a person's skin impacts their character or behaviour. In my opinion that is asinine. I do absolutely believe that the culture a person is raised in is among the primary factors impacting their values.

If we must generalize, and we must to get through life, I see nothing particularly wrong with generalizing based on culture. After all, we routinely make assumptions about a person based on their educational background or income level, do we not?

I would guess that after spending 2 minutes talking to me that most people could make the assumption that I am an average white guy raised in typical protestant, mid-western U.S. culture. I am not offended that someone would then assume certain elements of my character are consistent with those values.

I am not a native of the southern U.S. but I live and work here now. Unlike some other places in the states the differences between general white and black culture and values here is dramatic and easily apparent. To deny that would be the very height of stupidity.



Joebob

 

[spartan5782]

I do not know Kiarra, but for the record I think some of you are being a bit harsh in your responses to her. When people feel that they cannot discuss their perception of differences....
Joebob

My response was not meant to be harsh, simply an answer to "where do we start". It will take many years before people realize that skin color has absolutely no reflection on how a person thinks, feels or behaves. We certainly won't solve it here in this thread..but it's good conversation. I applaud Kiarra, as well as the other escorts, for having the balls to add to the discussion and Monte Cristo for starting the thread, although I'm still waiting for him to "expound upon the if, how and why" of it all.

I do not believe that we are discussing differences in race but rather differences in culture. I do not think that the color of a person's skin impacts their character or behaviour. In my opinion that is asinine. I do absolutely believe that the culture a person is raised in is among the primary factors impacting their values.
Joebob

To an extent, I agree with the culture factor. The problem is that people make assumptions of a person's culture based on skin color. We are right back to square one. I do like your term "asinine" however. Maybe it was my use of the word "a**hole" that seemed harsh. It was not directed towards anyone in particular. (or maybe you weren't referring to me at all?)

If we must generalize, and we must to get through life, I see nothing particularly wrong with generalizing based on culture. After all, we routinely make assumptions about a person based on their educational background or income level, do we not?
Joebob

Boy, this is where it can get sticky. You say we must generalize to get through life? Why? We can't take individuals on their merits? In my travels through Toronto focusing on our Hobby, I've seen more MPs than McDonalds! Now, I'm not upset about that at all, but it would be wrong of me to generalize and say that "All Canadian women will do X for a few bucks". That's a lie. It's grouping all Canadian women together because of one small aspect that their country is less restrictive sexually than ours. With the world-wide melting pot we are in, it's tough to even culturely generalize.

I am not a native of the southern U.S. but I live and work here now. Unlike some other places in the states the differences between general white and black culture and values here is dramatic and easily apparent. To deny that would be the very height of stupidity.
Joebob

Southern Blacks and Whites actually share the same culture, if by culture you are talking about language, foods, etc. There is one hell of a lot of tension in some towards others based on skin color, but that's what we are discussing. If I go to Mississippi where my parents are from, and I'm hated by a group of Whites, I know they don't hate me because they are White. They hate me because they are "asinine" (kinder and gentler a**holes). Again, I can't then turn around and hate all Southern Whites, or make a determination once I hear that Southern drawl, that they immediately hate me. That's my point. So, I guess I've reached that height of stupidity by denying your statement...lol. You say you are an average White guy raised in a mid-west US culture, hell, so am I. I just happen to be Black. Does that make us so different? Aren't we just two guys raised in the mid-west?

When will this end? When we stop making assumptions! We make assumptions about a person based on a variety of factors and we haven't said word one to that person. One might assume all Escorts are uneducated or why would they be doing this..that's a lie, each one I've been with has been very educated. But a person wouldn't know this reading the paper, they'd actually have to talk to them.

So again, I wasn't trying to be harsh..and Kiarra, if I offended you in some way, I am truly sorry. I'm just saying if someone wants to look at me and draw the conclusion that I'm aggressive, angry, uneducated, big dicked (well, I'll take that one. but at some point you'll know that's a lie! lol), pimp, player etc. just because I'm Black and don't want to Escort me without talking to me, there is absolutely nothing I can do. Just please, don't waste my time having me write emails or calling. Let me know upfront.

You talk about the South, hell, I remember the "White Only" sections that were posted. "No Colored Allowed". My parents used to take me down there when I was a kid. There were restrooms I couldn't use..etc. It hurt like hell, it was wrong, but you knew where you stood with them. So Escorts, if you feel that way, post the damn signs. I just want to know where I stand.

 

[Bobzilla]

racial profiling

Dear Spartan:

You said, "When will this end? When we stop making assumptions!"

Sorry, my friend, but the short & sweet answer is, it will never end. The reason why, i believe, is that EVERYONE is inherently racist to a degree. Before everyone jumps on me, let me explain: this is a trait that is hardwired into every person who ever lived. Human society began with the family group. If a member of a certain group saw someone who looked differently than their clan, they would have a certain amount of suspicion for that person. Because that person looks different than they do, they have no idea what their values, customs, etc. would be. Faced with this, it's easier to assume a threat. After all, self preservation is number 1, right? Hence our sometimes annoying tendency to make assumptions & generalizations.

Unless it's possible to eradicate thousands of years of history & tens of thousands of years of evolution, or failing that, to remove all traces of irrationality from every person on earth, the above is never going to change. Statements such as, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" are obtuse. Nothing in life is that black & white (if you'll pardon the pun). Someone far wiser than i once said, "You can't please everyone all the time." This, in my opinion, is why political correctness is an endeavour in futility.

So, what's the answer? Damned if I know...if i did, i'd have a hell of a lot bigger bank balance! My personal position is that, despite my first paragraph, i don't believe that all whites are potential KKK, neither are all blacks criminals, but betting against human nature is a sucker's gamble, and so, i don't see racism disappearing any time soon.
Bobzilla

 

[einar]

Bravo, Sparty. I couldn't possibly have articulated all this that well, yet I agree with you 100%. And yes, it is hard to stamp out our vestiges of bias. And yes, we have to be vigilant and keep trying. And yes, it's worth it to make a tolerant society. And yes, there will still be living, breath, human stereotypes we encounter that will seem to make our color-blind views naive.

But we persevere.

And let's remember that the world of escorting is an odd subculture from which to draw any conclusions. A very frowned-upon subculture, and essentially an illegal subculture in the US, and a merely tolerated subculture in Canada.

It's based on sex, which in our society is a no-no. Except to produce kids. Which is, after all, how we all got here in the first place (some of us intended, many of us the product of randy fooling-around.)

Einar

 

[CyberGoth]

sex is good, sex is fun, sex is best two on one!

 

[mrcheeks]

As a Black male I felt that it would be good to add my experiences to this thread.
My first SP experience did involve the aspects of racial profiling that is the theme of this thread. I was seeking an outcall SP through the internet and narrowed my choices to a few white sps. The one that I chose after viewing the website met my ideal physical standards and had the sweet sounding, friendly, non-racial description that I would say that all sps put on their website. But when I called the agency to book the appointment the call-taker noticed my accent and asked what "nationality" I was, and when I said that I was Black she said "oh I'm sorry but she is uncomfortable with Black clients" she then went on to tell me about the rough experience that she said the sp had with a previous Black client as the reason for being uncomfortable with black clients. But the call-taker still said that she would still see if she would want to see me. To make a long story short, I was fortunately able to get an appointment with another white sp at another agency, and cancelled the appointment I had with the other agency . And before I was ready to "get it on" with this sp, she said "you're my first black guy and i heard that you guys can be rough so please take it easy on me." I guess that statement was a surprise to me b/c I see myself as a considerate person. And after the session she agreed as well b/c she said she was surprised to find out I didn't have a girlfriend. Even though I ended up having a good experience, I would have felt more comfortable if the first sp I tried to see just put in her ad that she doesn't see blacks, which was suggested by spartan5782.
IMO, I think that aside from sps and other adult entertainers who offer a very "personal" service, I think that it be more important to make sure that racial profiling doesn't exist in other businesses, industries and corporations b/c a majority of businesses cater to visible minorities as their target markets so it would make sense to hire people of visible minorities for those positions. I guess I would take professional sports as an example of an "unfair" industry. Even though a majority of the performers in these positions are Black, the majority of the management personnel are white. For example, all of the commissioners in professional sports are white, and I think that would be strange for a sport like basketball.
In regards to kiarra's opinions, I didn't see her coming across as racist or anything of that nature. If anything, I would say that she forgot to list other stereotypes that are out there about other races. Myself, I am pretty laidback when it comes to race jokes, but people have to be aware that everyone isn't like that. I would say that one stereotype that kiarra missed is that black people love the hook-up, which is similar to saying that East Indians love to barter. And even though i would say it jokingly, I guess it would make me uncomfortable if another non-black person said it b/c they are not black and wouldn't have first-hand knowledge of what they were talking about, even though like I said b4 that I would agree with that statement and wouldn't be so offended by it to tongue-lash somebody. But unfortunately, kiarra was the victim of tongue-lashing for stating first-hand statements that she got from other sps. Basically kiarra was criticized for giving a truthful answer to a question. And I think that that is wrong b/c in life everybody should be honest b/c then the world would be a better place to live in.
Whew that was long! If anything I guess taking the time to post this is a good thing to give back to boards like this that have given me so much.

 

[citydude]

This is a visual business

The main focus of this activity is based on initial visual appeal.
Embedded in this kind of an interaction is physical apperances of the provider - Colour and other visual attributes do play a role - So some form of selection occurs based on these cues.

Is it racism ? Is it profiling ? You make the call

 

[Monte Cristo]

It appears that many have thought long and hard on the issue. As it should be.

I was criticized for being racist somehwere earlier in the thread so in response to that, I'll let you in on a little secret: I'm not white.

Kiarra was attacked (in varying degrees, albeit) for sharing information acrued from experience. 99% of the girls who enter into this business do not bring with them the baggage of racial bias. This attitude developes over a wide expanse of time and, when the young woman (and I truly mean young in the sense that she's barely lived life long enough to see the forest through the trees) has only her experiences in the sex trade with which to pass judgement, battle lines are inevitably drawn in a desperate effort of self preservation.

Surely, there are other examples to support both pro and con. But it's all semantics if we continue to maintain those battle lines while engaging in he said/she said.

Hobbyists must take up the torch if changes in attitude are desired. Respect is everything and oftentimes, as a paying customer, there is a tendency to forget that. For those who are interested, follow my next thread as it deals with this very issue of maturity.

 

[Kathy P]

Just my take on racial profiling

I don't agree that Kiarra was "attacked". I certainly didn't mean my comments/observations to be attacking. However, I did feel I had worthwhile points to make so I made them. I didn't feel as well that you were trying to open anyone's eyes. Correct me if I misread you, Kiarra, but I thought you were agreeing with the generalizations you listed and that was why I was critical, because I felt you were reinforcing them. If that wasn't your intention, then I apologize to you.

I do not agree that we live in a ridiculously politically correct atmosphere. Treating people with respect and not violating their civil rights is not an element of political correctness. This is a myth. Not only is there a moral obligation to treat visible minorities equally there is a legal obligation to do so.

While I agree that bias and preference do tie into physical appearance and that, having said that, different people have different views, discriminating against someone based on skin colour/race is offensive. You may choose to do it. That is an individual choice. However, that doesn't make it any less offensive.

I wholeheartedly support Spartan's views that what is dangerous is drawing conclusions based on unsupported myths. We have to, as a society, stop making assumptions about behaviour based on ignorant, timeworn phallacies (no pun intended in the adult entertainment vein of things). Using the word culture is just a polite way of trying to avoid the race word. You can try to dilute it all you want, Joebob, it's still racism.

As for Bobzilla, I don't think my remark was obtuse. There are some issues that are literally black and white. Treating people differently because of their skin colour is no gray issue. It is wrong, illegal, offensive and unacceptable in this century.

 

[Bobzilla]

racial profiling

Kathy:

Perhaps my choice of the word "obtuse" was not well thought out. My new choice would be unrealistic in light of the rest of my post. Don't get me wrong, I do not walk around spewing racial epithets, nor am i a card-carrying member of the KKK. However, offensive though racism and generalizations may be, they're not going to disappear. Is the alternative you seek to suppress the thoughts of people who feel this way, or their right (however odious) to convey them? That, I would remind you, is also offensive and illegal. I would love for you to provide me with an example of something involving human emotions that is strictly black and white. I don't think it can be done. There will always be someone with a different take on any given issue...
Bobzilla

 

[mrcheeks]

I have read what both KathyP and Monte Cristo said and they are both valid, TRUTHFUL points. But I would AGREE with KathyP MORE than I would agree with Monte Cristo. Therefore, based some of the stereotypes listed (AND OTHERS) I would make the following truthful conclusions:
ALL men shouldn't be rough to SPs (The Black stereotype)
ALL men should be clean and not try to barter with SPs (East Indian stereotypes).
ALL men shouldn't go into an appointment thinking that they can pop 6 times in an hour (Oriental stereotype)
ALL men shouldn't try to book last-minute appointments with SPs (White stereotype).
There! Now that should be simple enough for EVERYONE to understand. Of course that is assuming if everyone read this thread.

 

[mrcheeks]

Just to clarify things I AGREE with Selina's post too - especially the part about inter-racial dating.