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Putin planning powerful superpower coalition

Ranger68

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onthebottom said:
Per captia GDP (2000) in real terms:

USA – 34,000
China - 791
India – 449

Per capita PPP (2003) (from the CIA factbook online)

USA – 37,800
China – 5,000 (est)
India – 2,900

You guys have to be kidding, India has a 59% literacy rate and the Chinese banking and environments are disasters. China will not be able to sustain its 9% growth rate without a major overhaul of its political system. As bbking correctly pointed out you cannot challenge the US without your economy being powered by a strong middle class – only Europe has a chance – interesting that no one thinks of them when they think of economic growth.

From the CIA factbook:

The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $37,800. In this market-oriented economy, private individuals and business firms make most of the decisions, and the federal and state governments buy needed goods and services predominantly in the private marketplace. US business firms enjoy considerably greater flexibility than their counterparts in Western Europe and Japan in decisions to expand capital plant, to lay off surplus workers, and to develop new products

OTB
By your own numbers, in three years, China's and India's GDP have increased six-fold.

Perhaps, when the CIA factbook is your source, you should consider the conclusions you're going to get.

You don't know that China won't be able to sustain its growth rate, and haven't even touched on India, except to whine about its literacy rate.

The US empire is ending, brought down by economic factors. That's all there is to it. I'm sure the citizens of Rome thought much like you do when their Empire was collapsing.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but you could have figured it out for yourself.
 

Asterix

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Ranger68 said:
It's a one-sentence proposition in Dyer's book, which is mostly about the US.
I'll read that article when I get a chance.
He makes a sweeping predication on the world power structure in the next 40 years and all he devotes to it is one sentence?
Guess that tells me all I need to know.

Get a chance to read the article I posted, I'd like to see what you think about it. I think it demonstrates pretty clearly that India's economy is in a very fragile state.
 
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Ranger68

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Nope, not even close.
The US debt is incredibly large, as is their trade deficit.
It's hard to figure how they're going to get out of that mess.
You can try, if you'd like.

300 years?!?!! LOL
 

Ranger68

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Uh, did you mean an "economics" course? Because an "economic" course is just money well spent.

Nobody's saying that the US economy's demise won't bring other countries with it. The entire planet? You're obviously brainwashed.
What other countries have as serious a debt and deficit problem, combined with the massive trade deficit?

Why is it wishful thinking on my part that the US will fall soon?

Frankly, I couldn't care less what *you* see about China's future. Others, far wiser than you, see things very differently.

How would the US, in the boat they're in, "trash" the economy of China?

You need to stop being brainwashed by the US and do some serious critical thinking on your own.

300 years. LOL Not much of a history buff, are ya. ;)
 

Fortunato

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bbking said:
I can actually see the US forcing the currency of China to float - do you need a lesson in the rather nasty effects of hyper-inflation Ranger?
What nonsense (yet again). If you are the "instructor", it's a lesson he can skip....

From this "hyper-inflation" innuendo, I take it that you believe that China is sustaining their currency artificially HIGH against the dollar, and that Renminbi will actually FALL (relative to the dollar) if China stopped gobbling up all the US debt G.W. can float and if they stopped subsidising their exports??? You'd be the only one of course (not that this is uncommon), but that is the only way your conjecture of "floating rates leading to INFLATION" for CHINA... let alone "hyper-inflation"... makes any sense....


Don't you ever get tired of being emphatically wrong about everything?
 

Fortunato

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bbking said:
..and you need to take an economic course.bbk
Now THAT is funny.
 

danmand

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bbking said:
I can actually see the US forcing the currency of China to float - do you need a lesson in the rather nasty effects of hyper-inflation Ranger?
You cannot have a floating currency without a well developed banking system, which is 5-10 years out for China.

The peg is likely to be raised gradually though, as the renminbin is highly undervalued vs. the $US.
 

danmand

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bbking said:
..and you need to take an economic course. bbk
Now THAT is funny.
 

onthebottom

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Ranger68 said:
Uh, did you mean an "economics" course? Because an "economic" course is just money well spent.
I’m sure he did, and you still need one (perhaps an economic economics course would be best) if you don’t understand the difference between a PPP and nominal GDP.

Ranger68 said:

Nobody's saying that the US economy's demise won't bring other countries with it. The entire planet? You're obviously brainwashed.
What other countries have as serious a debt and deficit problem, combined with the massive trade deficit?
Most large countries have a substantial debt problem, especially if you consider the implied debt of their social programs (was that too fast for you given the problem understanding PPP?). Look at the deficits run (as a percentage of GDP) for the G8 countries over the last 10 years and you will find countries like France, Germany and Japan running 2-4% of GDP deficits. While current deficit spending is high, it is not without parallel, for example Reagan’s 83 budget ran a 6% of GDP deficit, Bush 1 in 92 4.7%, Clinton 93 3.9% and W in 2003 a 3.5%. Don’t for a minute think that I don’t realize this is a problem, it is, it just isn’t a tragic problem. The US can easily pay its way if it wants to, political turmoil and division makes it not want to.

Other countries do not have a trade deficit problem, the US provides a market for most other countries economies (like say, Canada). The US accounted for 60% of GLOBAL economic growth in the 90s – 60 farking percent. If the US falls (which it won’t) the entire world loses its best market and gets poorer – where will all those Indian DBAs work, who will China ship cheap bras to?

The rest of your post was mostly just insults and garbage logic (oops).

OTB
 

Ranger68

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onthebottom said:
I’m sure he did, and you still need one (perhaps an economic economics course would be best) if you don’t understand the difference between a PPP and nominal GDP.



Most large countries have a substantial debt problem, especially if you consider the implied debt of their social programs (was that too fast for you given the problem understanding PPP?). Look at the deficits run (as a percentage of GDP) for the G8 countries over the last 10 years and you will find countries like France, Germany and Japan running 2-4% of GDP deficits. While current deficit spending is high, it is not without parallel, for example Reagan’s 83 budget ran a 6% of GDP deficit, Bush 1 in 92 4.7%, Clinton 93 3.9% and W in 2003 a 3.5%. Don’t for a minute think that I don’t realize this is a problem, it is, it just isn’t a tragic problem. The US can easily pay its way if it wants to, political turmoil and division makes it not want to.

Other countries do not have a trade deficit problem, the US provides a market for most other countries economies (like say, Canada). The US accounted for 60% of GLOBAL economic growth in the 90s – 60 farking percent. If the US falls (which it won’t) the entire world loses its best market and gets poorer – where will all those Indian DBAs work, who will China ship cheap bras to?

The rest of your post was mostly just insults and garbage logic (oops).

OTB
Uh, I don't think *I* need an economics lesson, although perhaps you think guys like Greenspan et al do.
Wayda argumentum ad hominem.
LOL
Keep dreaming that dream.
NO OTHER NATION ON EARTH is in the dire economic straits of the US right now. NONE.
 

Ranger68

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Your assertion - indeed, your core premise - is badly flawed.

U.S. foreign trade went into deficit in the 1970s and never recovered; in recent years, the American trade deficit has ballooned to half a trillion dollars a year. To make matters worse, the U.S. federal government has been running enormous deficits most of the time since the Republicans discovered fiscal irresponsibility under President Reagan in the 1980s. There was a successful attempt to move back to balanced budgets under Bill Clinton in the mid-to-late 1990s, but under George W. Bush the annual budget deficit attained a new record of more than half a trillion dollars within two years.

Normally, huge budget deficits cause roaring inflation, which forces central banks to raise interest rates and rein in the rampant government borrowing (at the expense of killing growth in the rest of the economy as well). Normally, too, an enormous foreign trade deficit will cause the external value of the currency to drop like a rock, forcing the guilty government to slash imports - and, once again, to jack up the local interest rate in an attempt to attract foreign funds and stabilize the currency. But in the United States, none of these things has happened. The entire economy is sustained by an inflow of foreign capital so enormous that it covers the entire trade deficit and also, one way and another, the budget deficit.

It is the Indian Rope Trick conducted on a national scale. Well-to-do Americans reward themselves with massive tax cuts, the government goes on spending like there is no tomorrow - and the party will never have to end *so long as foreigners, almost all of them in Europe or East Asia, are willing to keep pouring their money into the United States*. Why do they do that, and is there any risk that they might stop?

They do not do it for the allegedly higher returns available in the U.S. stock market: a third of the inflow of foreign capital goes straight into relatively low-yielding bonds, and most of the rest into blue chips. They do it because they see the United States as the safest place to park their money. It is the centre of the world economy, after all, and the dollar is the world's reserve currency. But there is a dangerous circularity to this argument: the foreigners go on investing because the U.S. economy is strong, and it remains strong only because they continue to invest. What if one day the huge budget deficit caused the confidence of the foreign investors to falter? It would suddenly become clear that the emperor is wearing no clothes - and the sky would fall.

In mid-2004, the total amount of foreign money invested in the United States in forms that could be sold off fairly quickly was $8 trillion. If those investments started to move out, the U.S. dollar would fall so fast that the dollars that moved on Day Two of the panic might be worth only half as much in euros or yen as the dollars that moved on Day One. Nobody would win in such a panic, neither Americans nor foreigners, so the latter has almost as great an interest in pretending that the emperor is fully clothed as the former. Nevertheless, the markets have a way of discovering the truth sooner or later: the U.S. dollar's steady fall since the beginning of 2003 has already inflicted such losses on exporters who denominate their prices in dollars (like the oil producers) that its continued status as the world's main reserve currency, used for most international transactions, is becoming doubtful.

The U.S. economy is a confidence trick based on everybody else's perceptions that the United States is centrally important for the world's security and that its economy is equally central in the global economy. Both those propositions were true in 1945; neither is actually true any more.
(cont.)
 

Ranger68

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The post-Second World War recovery of the European economies and the subsequent *extraordinary* growth of the East Asian economies have shifted the centre of gravity of the global economy back to Eurasia, now home to *about three quarters of the world's gross domestic product*. The United States still has the biggest single economy, but it is separated by wide oceans from all the others and there is no non-historical reason why it should still be seen as central.

The political and strategic centrality of the United States lasted longer, because until the mid-1980s the core of Eurasia was controlled by Communist powers that were fundamentally hostile to both democracy and the capitalist system: the Free World really did face a mortal threat, and depended on America's military strength (above all its nuclear weapons) for protection. But China has been a capitalist country for most practical purposes for about twenty years now, and Russia hasn't even been Communist for almost fifteen years, so where's the threat? Why does everybody else need the United States any more?

They don't, but if the party is to continue, they must be persuaded that they do.

Thus endeth the economics and geo-political lesson for today.
 

Ranger68

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There are lots of other markets in the world - again, you've fallen totally into the trap of being mesmerized by the belief that the US is and always will be the centre of the economic universe.

I've said plenty - why and how the US economy will crash.
Why is it "funny" that I question US economic strength? You cast aspersions without defending against these arguments.

These are not "wild conclusions". I've presented my case, and you have nothing, so you just start the rhetoric - predictions can bite you on the ass, I doubt you would have done this during Clinton's tenure, only time will tell, I really don't know or care why things happen. Nice arguments.
 

onthebottom

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Ranger68 said:
Uh, I don't think *I* need an economics lesson, although perhaps you think guys like Greenspan et al do.
Wayda argumentum ad hominem.
LOL
Keep dreaming that dream.
NO OTHER NATION ON EARTH is in the dire economic straits of the US right now. NONE.
Are you really stupid enough to think that a 5% budget deficit and a 5% trade deficit (as a % of GDP) are dire straights for an economy that produces 50% more per Capita than Canada does? The Canadian debt (again as a % of GDP) is about the same as the US.

Greenspan, while rightly worried about both these deficits did say that the US is so robust and resilient that market forces will lower both of these without a dramatic event.

OTB
 

Ranger68

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Yep. Dire straights (sic).
Foreign investment is already leaving.
The centre of mass of the global economy is shifting.
The Canadian debt may be as high, but the trade deficit - nope. It's the *combination of the two* which is particularly problematic.

Are you really stupid enough not to see that?
 
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onthebottom said:
Are you really stupid enough to think that a 5% budget deficit and a 5% trade deficit (as a % of GDP) are dire straights for an economy that produces 50% more per Capita than Canada does?
No, you don't.

US GDP PPP per capita: $33108.13
Canada GDP PPP per capita: $$26581.08 - edit

Close - actually you only produce about a quarter more GDP than we do - but that only counts in hand grenades.

The Canadian debt (again as a % of GDP) is about the same as the US.
Not even close! Our external debt per person is $58.99. Yours is $2968.90 per person! You run a debt at $8.24 per $100 of GDP, ours is at $0.20 per $100 of GDP!

http://www.nationmaster.com - wonderful site, by the by.
 

onthebottom

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Drunken Master said:
No, you don't.

US GDP PPP per capita: $33108.13
Canada GDP PPP per capita: $26682.08

Close - actually you only produce about a quarter more GDP than we do - but that only counts in hand grenades.
Oh, economics makes hand grenades look precise, your numbers look different than those on your site (which I bookmarked, thanks), point still stands.


Drunken Master said:



Not even close! Our external debt per person is $58.99. Yours is $2968.90 per person! You run a debt at $8.24 per $100 of GDP, ours is at $0.20 per $100 of GDP!

http://www.nationmaster.com - wonderful site, by the by.


Wait a minute, from: http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/govt03a.htm your national debt is 526,492,000,000 (2003) and you have 29,639,030 people as of your 2001 census. Now this is simple math but isn’t that a debt of 17,763 per person? Your GDP is 1,218,772,000,000 (2003) given the above debt your debt as a % of GDP is 43%

Nice misdirection on “external� though, I’m sure the canuks were feeling good there for a minute.

OTB
 

Ranger68

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bbking said:
As for the US being the centre of the economic universe - it is, just look at the data the World Bank puts out - that's reality, your stuff is fantasy.

You said plenty?? You said nothing that can be supported over a long term. If you really believe the US will crash, then you should short the whole world, because if the US goes so will the rest of the planet and if you don't think so then I suggest that change the lightbulbs in your head because they have burned out.


bbk
What data?! Eurasia is home to THREE QUARTERS of the world's GDP. In what way is the US "central"?

Keep trying.
 
Jan 24, 2004
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onthebottom said:
Oh, economics makes hand grenades look precise, your numbers look different than those on your site (which I bookmarked, thanks), point still stands.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_ppp_cap

Make sure you're looking at the right graph. I did screw the Canadian number by about a hundred bucks - my apologies.


Nice misdirection on “external� though, I’m sure the canuks were feeling good there for a minute.

OTB
No misdirection - as someone wise once said, external debt is the only debt that matters.
 

Fortunato

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bbking said:
I am not going to get into a three page debate with you because your idea of a debate is to lie and a use selective use of quotes.
Good - because you are always wrong. But "lie and use selective quotes?" How? I've quoted everything you said:

"I can actually see the US forcing the currency of China to float - do you need a lesson in the rather nasty effects of hyper-inflation Ranger?" - Village Idiot

The truth of the matter is that China's current practice of supporting the dollar (which also enhances their competitive trade position) is ALREADY inflationary. If they were to let the exchange float, their currency would RISE against the US dollar, which would (1) reduce the perceived trade imbalance, but more importantly would (2) LOWER PRICES IN CHINA (RMB priced goods are not affected, US price goods - like commodities and other imports - are CHEAPER when translated into RMB). See? CHEAPER.

And, guess what? Outside of bbk-world, lowering prices is NOT inflationary. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect.

bbking said:
Again - talk about being tired - I've heard this debt argument about China and it is a load of BS. Remember when they used the same arguments with Japan and they actually had a more balanced economey than China. If don't see the double edge sword that debt is for China you never will.bbk
And now what the hell are you going on about with "debt"? Ranger is talking about US debt being a crisis for AMERICA... a concern for the US, to be sure, but except for the fact that China is financing most of it lately, this has NOTHING to do with China... or Chinese inflation... or China's economic capacity, or anything else.

And what "double edge sword"??? The US debt is an asset for them that will (undoubtedly) depreciate. That's it. No "edges"... no "swords". Just bonds. And lots of them.


Seriously, it's a little early to be getting high, don't you think....
 
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