The Porn Dude

Prostitution case to begin

Mencken

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
1,059
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Legal and logical arguements aside, Canada is fast achieving Nanny State status. That is, regulation and control of just about all (preferably all) human behaviour and jusrisdiction to make moral, ethical and behavioural choices for its citizenry (eg., which province just outlawed transfats?). My opinion is that the choice is to be left to the individual as to whether or not to engage in destructive behaviour (not that prostitution is destructive). But then again I am like a fish out of water in this country. I suspect that the state will not tolerate giving up such a juicy area of control. The ramifications are too extensive. So I suspect this will be a showcase demonstrating politicalization of the law, just as abortion was in the U.S.. Read Roe v. Wade (as well as whatever decision comes down the pipes in this case) and you will not be able to make any legal or common sense out of it.
Some of what you cite as control I see as protection. The trans fat issue is a good example. We should have health protection as part of the responsibility of the government. Otherwise you could end up with your fries cooked in motor oil. Trans fats are not as clearly a health issue as motor oil would be, but once the evidence is clear then government needs to regulate this sort of thing. A good part of the reason is not to do with personal freedom, but protection from abuse by others. An individual cannot make an informed personal decision on whether to eat fries cooked in trans fats versus other alternatives, because they have no idea of the difference.

An opposite sort of situation is with tobacco. Most consumers know the pros and cons...and so personal freedom is probably more appropriate. No one makes you smoke, and you generally know when you are doing it. So, other than some regulation regarding second hand smoke I see no more need to regulate smoking. Just make the users pay...smokers should have to pay significantly higher premiums for health care, for example (and if they rely on insurance I'm sure they already do)

As far as prostitution laws...you may have a point there. I think the control the government wants is purely political. If the majority strongly support control of the sex trade, then the government of the day will move that way...and vice versa. As Trudeau once said...the government has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.
 

Mable

Active member
Sep 20, 2004
1,379
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Well, I guess I would argue that there is no way to protect society from its own ignorance or to make decisions for its members. And any attempt to do so is usually catastrophic. This is the philosophy of the leftist ( Scott Brisson: -- we can't give money to the individual out there for day care -- they will spend it on beer and peanuts. We will remove the choice for them).

You would have to be living under a rock not to know that deep fried fries are anathema to good health. Same with say, candy. That refined sugar is pure poision to your system. Yet, the "govment" does not ban it nor regulate it. Reason: the sugar industry would be in an uproar. It is one thing for a government to investigate and disclosure information to the public so that its members can make an informed decision; quite another for the state to make the decisions for them. I do recognize that the elitist (in its own mind) leftist disagrees with this (for many self important reasons). But I invite you to take a little joy ride through history and look at the cataclysmic disasters attendant to the socialist/collectivist regimes that espouse such philosophy.

In short, sure government should play a role in regulation and disclosure but NOT IN CONTROL.
 

Stokley

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
64
0
0
The bits and pieces of Young’s arguments that I have heard seem to fall short of the mark. The emphasis on safety is easily countered and there has been a lack of emphasis on fundamental rights. Now I am only hearing snippets from time to time from various sources so this may be completely inaccurate of his total presentation and materials. I have no idea how the judge is reacting to submissions, safe to say she is treating them as serious.

To get a truer picture of the government position here is a link to the 2006 House of Commons Report on prostitution. It is a long dry read but for folks involved with the industry (clients, providers, procurers) it is insightful in parts. It discusses issues of drugs, violence, clients, pimps, street work, escort agencies, organized crime etc etc.

At pages 29 and 30
“Madeline Boscoe, the Coordinator of the Women’s Health Clinic in Winnipeg, noted:
‘Legitimizing prostitution reinforces the belief that women and our bodies are
commodities. This, in turn, reinforces the stigmatization of all women,
affecting our role in society and our equality”

Starting at page 85 are recommendations for the reform of some laws. Aside from the obvious of child prostitution and slavery there was little agreement among the politicians.

Without a doubt it is part of the materials that the Justice Himel is considering

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Committee/391/JUST/Reports/RP2599932/justrp06/sslrrp06-e.pdf
 

fmahovalich

Active member
Aug 21, 2009
7,255
16
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Im not sure

a woman in charge as Judge....will agree that legalizing prostitution will 'advance the right so women'......

In fact....I think it may hurt....

And whose to say...if she has a family member or neice in the past get caught up in prostituion..she may have experienced the seedy side..which will also cultivate her opinion....Never know....
 

Stokley

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
64
0
0
a woman in charge as Judge....will agree that legalizing prostitution will 'advance the right so women'......

In fact....I think it may hurt....

And whose to say...if she has a family member or neice in the past get caught up in prostituion..she may have experienced the seedy side..which will also cultivate her opinion....Never know....

She would have been selected to try this case by Justice Then who is the regional senior judge (one of the very last ones left to be properly addressed as My Lord, and he likes to hear it).

I would guess he assigned Justice Himel so that the case gets the best possible opinion in favour of the applicants (the ladies) at the lower court. If Justice Himel does not strike down the prostitution laws the chances that an appeal court would over-ride her and strike down the law is very small.

It will save a lot of political embarrassment if she tosses out the case.

If she does strike down the law, then off to the appeals courts for all and all bets are off.
 

moviefan

Court jester
Mar 28, 2004
2,531
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Here's Rosie DiManno's take on the situation, from today's Toronto Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/706582--prostitutes-suffer-with-sinister-law

Prostitutes suffer with 'sinister' law

By Rosie DiManno
Columnist

When the Green River Killer, Gary Ridgway, was sentenced for murdering 48 women, his written confession was read aloud in court: "I picked prostitutes as my victims because I hate most prostitutes and I did not want to pay them for sex. I also picked prostitutes as victims because they were easy to pick up without being noticed. ... I picked prostitutes because I thought I could kill as many of them as I wanted without getting caught."

Marcello Palma shot three Toronto sex trade workers during a manic, two-hour killing spree in 1996. Married, with a young child, Palma later claimed he was "getting rid of street scum."

Pig farmer Robert Pickton, charged with murdering 26 prostitutes – and convicted on six counts at his first trial in 2007 – preyed on the most vulnerable of drug-addled and transient hookers in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside, though years had passed before police aggressively tackled the phenomenon of so many women disappearing off the face of the Earth.

The streets are not safe for prostitutes. Yet the streets are where Canada's laws force them to work. While prostitution is legal in this country, nearly everything surrounding the activity is criminalized, particularly where the service can be provided: Not indoors, not in one's home, and not under a roof shared with a spouse, partner or bodyguard, any of whom can be charged with living off the avails.

That Catch-22 is at the heart of a constitutional challenge which finally opened Tuesday before Ontario Superior Court Justice Susan Himel, and largely on the efforts of students from York University and Osgoode Hall Law School.

Few others, it would appear, care much about the lives – too often, deaths – of sex trade workers. As rewritten in the mid-'80s, Canada's legislation is far more preoccupied with marginalizing prostitution, keeping the nuisance of solicitation off the streets, yet simultaneously denying its practitioners a secure environment that would discourage both predatory assaults and the visible street presence that many citizens find objectionable.

"The law is contributing to lack of safety and the harm women face," said Alan Young. "The laws today operate as a sinister contradiction."

An Osgoode law professor, Young is arguing the motion on behalf of his client, notorious – and endlessly waggish – Toronto dominatrix Terri-Jean Bedford.

As befits an S&M specialist, Bedford showed up for court Tuesday in full-leather (but stylish) ensemble, riding crop tucked inside her coat. "It's to keep reporters in line and whip some shape into the law," the 49-year-old grandmother teased. More seriously: "Just because I have a crop doesn't mean I don't mean business. This is my business."

Bedford's "Bondage Bungalow" in Thornhill was raided by cops in 1994 and she was convicted of keeping a common bawdy house four years later. Police, she reminds, still have her professional toys. "They never even returned my panties."

She and two other prostitutes, including long-time activist Valerie Scott – whose Bad Date register provides crucial information on clients to avoid – are the catalysts for the landmark legal challenge as a violation of their rights to security and freedom of expression under the Charter of Rights.

Aligned against the challengers are lawyers for the attorneys general of Ontario and Canada, with intervention status granted to religious and conservative groups, a misguided privilege in itself.

At issue are sections dealing with keeping a bawdy house, living off the avails and communicating for the purpose of prostitution, all of which is forbidden.

"Is it a vice? Is it a virtue?" Young mused, as he launched into oratory that, in this venue, often sounds like a filibuster. "The applicants don't even call into question Parliament's right to criminalize prostitution. We're questioning how they've done it.

"This is not a challenge about morality. That's not relevant for the purposes of this hearing. Our challenge relates to the means chosen to achieve an objective."

Prostitution legislation is intended to curb public nuisance while protecting against exploitation – the latter an issue that will be heavily emphasized by the respondents later this week, the spectre of women forced on their backs by pimps and human traffickers a predictable, if limited in reality, counter-argument. Nobody among the plaintiffs is denying that "survival-sex" exists or is promoting a prostitution free-for-all.

"I'm here representing the intelligent, independent and well-informed sex worker," said Young.

There are some. There are plenty. It's a legitimate profession and it's not going away, even in countries such as Sweden that have recently passed dogmatic and draconian legislation that pre-emptively assumes coercion, with sex-as-commerce an inherent violation of human rights. Such legislation is staggeringly patronizing.

As the legislation stands, prostitutes must choose between compliance and safety, Young argued. "The law should never put anyone on the horns of that dilemma."

This is no minor consideration. Soliciting in public is a summary offence that carries a monetary fine. Keeping a bawdy house – arcane language for working out of one's home – is an indictable offence that triggers forfeiture of assets and allows police to obtain wiretaps. Conviction on living off the avails – be that a driver, spouse, security employee or receptionist – means landing on the sex offenders' register. "You will get the mark of Cain for life for assisting a sex worker and protecting them."

The law is self-defeating, Young continued, because, in application, it runs counter to intent, while tacitly promoting the stereotypical and ideological arguments it doesn't have the guts to make overtly. There's no practical option offered for women (or men) who choose to be prostitutes.

"It's all bad, period. The Constitution tells you there is only one safe option – exit the sex trade."
 

Stokley

Banned
Sep 13, 2009
64
0
0
The obvious flaw in the above argument is found right here on Terb.

Every lady working as an independent performing out-calls is not breaking a single law of Canada.

The reality is that the laws as they currently stand work to prohibit street walking and agencies. And enforcement is mostly given to street walking.

But no side in this court case will gain an advantage by making the truthful statement to the judge that independent out-calls are currently legal. As such I doubt if that evidence will be placed before her, and I doubt that she will have sufficient independent knowledge of the escort industry to take judicial notice of that fact on her own.
 
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