Prostitution Appeal to Be Heard Monday

[dreamblade]

I've been following the proceedings very closely and feel there needs to be some clarification:

-We're talking about decriminilization not legalization. Prostitution is already legal in Canada.
-The 3 laws (communicating, living off avails, bawdy house) are argued to cause unsafe conditions for sex workers.
-The appeal this week will decide whether or not these laws are in violation of the constitutional promise of security.

The Swedish model, as it was argued today, would not change this. SPOC and its allies are aiming more for the New Zealand model, which you gentlemen have completely not mentioned. It is generally acknowledged that this is just a first step. We don't want another Picton incident, be it on the streetwalker or agency/indy levels.

Furthermore, this is very much in our interest as hobbyists that this succeeds. You might consider donating to SPOC. I did because I want to make sure SPOC lives long and prospers.

 

[flyingwood]

I've heard that German model also works well. Hope we can have FKK clubs someday.

 

[qwertyuio]

Are the court transcripts available? Or are they not made public until the hearing is over?

 

[afterhours]

Are the court transcripts available? Or are they not made public until the hearing is over?

court reporters don't type that fast unless somebody really asks them to

 

[dreamblade]

Are the court transcripts available? Or are they not made public until the hearing is over?

You can check Nikki's Tweets. She's been at the courthouse every day, and hs been giving a play by play.

 

[Rockslinger]

Under the Nordic model the woman can testify against you without incriminating herself.

Does the woman have to return all the money she took from men?

The Nordic model is ridiculous. The buyer of the service is a criminal but the seller of the service is not and the service itself is not illegal. That is like saying it is illegal to buy a car but not illegal to sell a car and cars are not illegal.

 

[Rockslinger]

Now you know how we feel when you argue!

What don't you understand? I'll go slower next time. Hee, hee, hee.

 

[fuji]

I've seen these sting ops on TV and in theory it can be done here.

Under our current laws a sting operation can't really be done other than for street walking, where it's often done. Outcall is just plain legal. For incall the charge is "found in", and being found at a fake incall is not a crime.

However if the C's criminalized the purchase of sex then it would presumably be sting-able.

Those who think nothing would change if the C's introduced new legislation to criminalize prostitution are deluded.

 

[Perry Mason]

Are the court transcripts available? Or are they not made public until the hearing is over?

No record or recordings are made of arguments on an appeal and no transcripts can be produced.

Perry

 

[dreamblade]

The stay has been extended pending the decision of the Court of Appeals. No info as of yet how long that's going to be. For now, carry on as usual... Whatever that means to you.

Truly, this is disappointing.

 

[chiller_boy]

Under our current laws a sting operation can't really be done other than for street walking, where it's often done. Outcall is just plain legal. For incall the charge is "found in", and being found at a fake incall is not a crime.

However if the C's criminalized the purchase of sex then it would presumably be sting-able.

Those who think nothing would change if the C's introduced new legislation to criminalize prostitution are deluded.

Agree, and I think legislation is the only possible outcome of all this, unfortunately.

 

[dreamblade]

Why? Nothing has changed so go out and have fun.

Such an important decision has to be well considered and justified for it to withstand scrutiny. It takes time to write a magazine article, so writing a legal judgement should take a bit of time.

Be patient. And lets not forget that once a decison does come down to strike the laws, NEW laws are inevitable. And who knows what that means?

Honestly, I was hoping for an immediate ruling, considering the weak/morality-based case the Crown put together. I understand this is a politically loaded decision, but while the political merits are being debated, SP's, MPA's are still at risk.

 

[TeasePlease]

Honestly, I was hoping for an immediate ruling, considering the weak/morality-based case the Crown put together. I understand this is a politically loaded decision, but while the political merits are being debated, SP's, MPA's are still at risk.

If protecting sexworkers was a priority, this matter wouldn't be before the Court.

Way too much at play for an immediate ruling. Regardless, we're looking at an SCC appeal whichever way it goes.

Legislating sexwork is less about morality now than it is about NIMBY.

 

[flyingwood]

Why? Nothing has changed so go out and have fun.

Such an important decision has to be well considered and justified for it to withstand scrutiny. It takes time to write a magazine article, so writing a legal judgement should take a bit of time.

Be patient. And lets not forget that once a decison does come down to strike the laws, NEW laws are inevitable. And who knows what that means?

If Alan Young's team is able to make a strong case that the Nordic model will only drive ordinary johns away but have no effect on real criminals, in other words, put SPs and MPAs in greater danger, Gov. may consider NZ model. Otherwise, I could see nothing to stop them to copy Nordic version.

 

[oldjones]

Am I correct that no one in the court actually addressed the Honkin' Great Elephant crowding the Courtroom? Namely, why does the government not simply make prostitution itself a crime rather than leaving it a legal occupation but attempting—inefficiently, ineffectively and perhaps unconstitutionally—to put it's workers out of business by all these indirect measures?

 

[wet_suit_one]

No record or recordings are made of arguments on an appeal and no transcripts can be produced.

Perry

You sure about that Perry? Doesn't the Supreme Court have a record of the appeal? Appeal Courts most certainly have the trial transcripts. I'd be surprised if the Appelate Court hearings aren't transcribed as well.

 

[dreamblade]

Am I correct that no one in the court actually addressed the Honkin' Great Elephant crowding the Courtroom? Namely, why does the government not simply make prostitution itself a crime rather than leaving it a legal occupation but attempting—inefficiently, ineffectively and perhaps unconstitutionally—to put it's workers out of business by all these indirect measures?

Actually, the main reason why this wasn't focused on or really discussed is legal precedent and scope. It was previously established by the SCC that prostitution is to be legal in Canada. Furthermore, it's not within the scope of this court to revisit that decision.

That would required another challenge, from the Abolitionists, and it would have a long path that SPOC has already travelled with this challenge.

Also, this type of challenge would fail, because it would be made on moral grounds and outdated studies. New emerging evidence suggests there are more intelligent educated happy hookers rather than the drug-addled street urchin.

 

[qwertyuio]

It was previously established by the SCC that prostitution is to be legal in Canada.

I didn't realize that was an SCC decision, I thought it was just one of those bizarre over-looked laws. It kind of makes sense of the current batch of nonsensical laws though.

 

[S.C. Joe]

The stay has been extended pending the decision of the Court of Appeals. No info as of yet how long that's going to be. For now, carry on as usual... Whatever that means to you.

Truly, this is disappointing.

what did anybody expect?

we haven't lost yet.

Shit Toronto isn't bad at all, these rulings mean much more to places like Windsor Canada, where freaken Incalls are like doing an armed robbery--well maybe not that bad but close to it.

Yeah it be great to just chill out on a busy sidewalk and get offers from hotties, lol but gee is it that hard to look online and pick up the phone?

Maybe new laws will happen but right now its unfair to some people, cops look the other way for some folks, while taking property and freedom away from somebody else doing just about the same freaken thing. Not fair one bit.

 

[Rockslinger]

Namely, why does the government not simply make prostitution itself a crime

If the Feds make prostitution a crime, could Quebec opt out? I can't imagine the Quebecois putting up with such a law.