Preliminary inquiry commits James Forcillio to stand trial for 2nd degree murder.

[elise]

So as I originally said, no faith in the legal system? The judge crown and police are in on the fix.

Nope. The one thing I don't have is blind faith in any manmade system, legal or otherwise. If it can be abused it will be abused and the older I get the more cynical I get. Nothing seems to be beyond reproach these days.

Find system, study system, fuck system.

 

[GameBoy27]

Just a related aside.....

Look at how the RCMP handled the recent situation in Moncton. Here you have a whack job - Justin Borque, who just killed 3 mounties and shot 2 others. He's armed to the teeth with what looked like machine guns in the photos. He's on the loose, the entire town is locked down and in panic. And yet the Mounties not only capture the guy, they take him alive without even firing a shot.

Now look at this kid Sammy Hatim. He's pulled out his cock in a street car, he's babbling on about nothing. The street car stops, everyone gets out without being hurt. The LOCK HIM IN THE STREET CAR. And Toronto's finest shoot him 9 times and kill him. He hasn't hurt anyone and he's locked inside a street car.

Now it begs the question. What the fuck are the cops in Toronto doing?

Should have brought in the Mounties from New Brunswick for crying out loud.

The question is what the fuck was Forcillo doing?

 

[nottyboi]

2nd degree murder is the correct charge.

Given the video, it is a complete slam-dunk that Furcillo intended to kill Yatim. In fact, whenever a policeman fires his gun at a human being, you would have to be up very early in the morning not to see that as a clear intent to kill.

Manslaughter only applies when the evidence shows that there was no intent to kill -- but here, it is indisputable that furcillo intended to kill him.
1st degree murder only applies when they can prove premeditation -- which is clearly absent in this case.
2nd degree is the correct charge.

The police do not have a "licence to kill". To get off a murder charge, a policeman-defendant has to prove he acted in self-defence.
The prosecution does not have to prove that Furcillo was doing more than defend himself. Instead, Furcillo has to prove that he was doing nothing but defend himself.

So what, intent to kill has little to do with 2nd degree murder in this context. Forcillo was not there out of any reason other then being dispatched. He was there to do his duty. He has no other business or intent of malice in going there other then to do his job. The officer does not have to prove self defense. He only needs to prove he felt threatened. Even if that perception was proven to be wrong, you cannot obtain a 2nd degree murder conviction. Only negligence. There was no provable intent of malice against Yatim. Without that you will NEVER get a 2nd degree murder conviction let alone for a police officer.

 

[blackrock13]

Too easy, man. I have no doubt that the legal costs of this trial will run into the millions, but to say how many million is a little presumptuous at this point, agreed?

Originally Posted by blackrock13
So you have no faith in our legal system? Sure lets just waste $2.5 million dollar for a show.

Nowhere did I say the Forcillo case would cost 2.5 million. It was just a number based on an average cost from past threads, before your time and from the cost of a recent case close to home. Feel free to check that case out, doubt you will though, even though I told you where to look.

 

[Julian]

I wonder what the outcome will be?










not...

 

[blackrock13]

Unless that case involved a police officer shooting someone on a TTC streetcar, then your average, estimate, educated guess or whatever you want to call it now, is worthless. Does your example case even involve a police officer shooting someone?

All it does is estimate the average what a murder case will cost. Every case is unique, but averages are just that, an average.

 

[buttercup]

So what, intent to kill has little to do with 2nd degree murder in this context. Forcillo was not there out of any reason other then being dispatched. He was there to do his duty. He has no other business or intent of malice in going there other then to do his job. . . . There was no provable intent of malice against Yatim. Without that you will NEVER get a 2nd degree murder conviction let alone for a police officer.

I guess the point you are making here is that there was no element of premeditation in the Yatim killing. ("Intent of malice" = premeditation?) If so, you are quite right.

Except that the absence of premeditation means you will NEVER get a 1st degree murder conviction.

That's why Furcillo has been accused of 2nd degree murder -- where the prosecution does not need to prove premeditation.

For 2nd degree murder, the prosecution has to prove "intent to kill" -- but that is a slam-dunk, given the video.

The officer does not have to prove self defense.

He sure does. In an affirmative defence (self-defence, insanity, entrapment, etc), it is up to the accused to introduce the evidence needed to convince the jury that he had an excuse. The accused himself has to prove that, although he did indeed commit the criminal act, his reason for doing so takes away his guilt.

He only needs to prove he felt threatened. Even if that perception was proven to be wrong, you cannot obtain a 2nd degree murder conviction. Only negligence.

I guess the point you are making here is that self-defence requires the accused to show only that he was in fear for his life (or the lives of others, esp. in a police case), even if that fear later turns out to be groundless (e.g if the gun the deceased was pointing turns out to be a toy). His "fear" does not even have to be the fear a reasonable person would have, but his fear. If that is your point, you are correct.

There is no way the Yatim killing could be attributed to negligence! What -- Furcillo closed his eyes and blazed away, without intending to kill Yatim, is that it?

 

[Aardvark154]

Me thinks this is purely for optics...he'll likely walk.

I'm sure that on this the code of ethics in Ontario is as in the rest of North America. Prosecutors have an obligation that the facts support the charges brought and that a jury could reasonably convict.

 

[Aardvark154]

Of course the show needs to go on. If they really wanted to convict him, the judge would say the 2nd degree would not stand at this point and the crown would have been FORCED to change the charge to Criminal Negligence or Manslaughter. Those are 2 charges on which there is actually a risk of conviction. 2nd degree, zero risk of conviction. Guaranteed walk. 2.5M for a show? You really think they care about 2.5M? BWAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHA

Presumably judicial instruction as to lesser included charges exists in Canada?

 

[red]

We need all the evidence to come out at trial- hopefully the public gets to see all the video evidence

 

[GameBoy27]

We need all the evidence to come out at trial- hopefully the public gets to see all the video evidence

I doubt they'll ever make the video from the streetcar public. YouTube it will not be.

 

[Julian]

Now they've added an attempted murder charge against Forcillo. I don't really understand what this means to the case at all.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...attempted_murder_in_sammy_yatim_shooting.html

 

[nottyboi]

Dog and pony show continues... he is gonna walk

 

[GameBoy27]

Trial is not expected to even start until the fall of 2015. Why do things take so long to go to trial here? Things seem to happen a lot faster in the US.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Now they've added an attempted murder charge against Forcillo. I don't really understand what this means to the case at all.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...attempted_murder_in_sammy_yatim_shooting.html

IMHO, I guess 'attempted murder' suggests he used excessive force.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Fuckin Toronto cops are pumped up on paranoia. Everybody's out to get them BS. What have they learned after the G20 summit?

I saw 50 cops converge on the scene to arrest one young punk drunk and disorderly after the Toronto Jazz Fest on Queen Street near Woodbine. The arresting cops were treating the kid as if they just busted a cop killer. Kids around the area filmed it on their smart phones.

Yatim should not have been shot. This was the result of stupid cops in the situation, which was supposed to be under control. The cop who shot at Yatim .... was out of control.

Basically yes. Forcillo freaked out when Yatim refused to drop the knife and waved it around a little, but that act alone, even if he took one step, wasn't enough to empty his clip into him. Then later, an idiotic cop tasered Yatim on the floor of the streetcar, without asking or being told what had just happened. I'd sue the TPS and that cop too.

 

[basketcase]

Now they've added an attempted murder charge against Forcillo. I don't really understand what this means to the case at all.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...attempted_murder_in_sammy_yatim_shooting.html

Though I could see the first shot or two Forcillo took as being justified (though far from ideal), doesn't attempted murder mean the guy wasn't killed?

 

[buttercup]

IMHO, I guess 'attempted murder' suggests he used excessive force.

Most likely, the added charge of 'attempted murder' means they're covering themselves in case there is a doubt whether the bullets killed him.

Perhaps the forensics can't rule it out that he might have died from the tasering.

 

[Julian]

Though I could see the first shot or two Forcillo took as being justified (though far from ideal), doesn't attempted murder mean the guy wasn't killed?

That's what I thought. I guess throwing charges against him that they know won't stick is their idea of appeasing the public while at the same time, weakening the case against the cop.

 

[nottyboi]

Most likely, the added charge of 'attempted murder' means they're covering themselves in case there is a doubt whether the bullets killed him.

Perhaps the forensics can't rule it out that he might have died from the tasering.

I am surprised there were not charges against the guy with the tazer, after all, why would one use a tazer on an unconcious and blood soaked person? At least criminal assault. But of course they just want to white wash this so no point in charging anyone else when the public is focused on the shooter.