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Possible for C-36 to be immediatley S.C.C. CHALLENGED once Law.

bobcat40

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Jan 25, 2006
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For all debating whether or not prostitution is legal or illegal under C-36, here is an opinion by actual lawyers (not the many armchair lawyers on terb...) on their submission for the Canadian Bar Association:

Bedford ruling applied to all prostitutes, including those previously protected under section 212(4). In other words, the fact that purchasing sex from adults is now explicitly illegal does not change the fact that prostitutes may still legally sell sex for money in Canada, and so deserve safety and protection. It is untenable to suggest that because purchasing sex would be made explicitly illegal, prostitutes deserve lesser protections under the Charter. Whether selling sex is legal is critical from a constitutional standpoint. It means that sex trade work remains a “risky – but legal” vocation, and the government cannot add to the danger of that work in an unconstitutional way. The Court said:[59] Here, the applicants argue that the prohibitions on bawdy-houses, living on the avails of prostitution, and communicating in public for the purposes of prostitution, heighten the risks they face in prostitution — itself a legal activity. The application judge found that the evidence supported this proposition and the Court of Appeal agreed. [60] For reasons set out below, I am of the same view. The prohibitions at issue do not merely impose conditions on how prostitutes operate. They go a critical step further, by imposing dangerous conditions on prostitution; they prevent people engaged in a risky — but legal — activity from taking steps to protect themselves from the risks.5 The constitutionality of Bill C-36 will therefore still turn on whether the new offences create dangerous conditions for prostitutes engaged in a legal activity (selling sex for money), and so represent a violation of section 7 of the Charter.
It basically their opinion that putting sex workers in danger is a violation of section 7 of the charter. Hence why so many of the elements of C-36 are vulnerable to a court challenge.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
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For all debating whether or not prostitution is legal or illegal under C-36, here is an opinion by actual lawyers (not the many armchair lawyers on terb...) on their submission for the Canadian Bar Association:



It basically their opinion that putting sex workers in danger is a violation of section 7 of the charter. Hence why so many of the elements of C-36 are vulnerable to a court challenge.

Bravo Bobcat40. Thanks for the refresher and clarification. However, like TP aptly said, the previous law was unconstitutional, because by FOLLOWING the previous law, it infringed on the security of the person under Section 7.

The new law still criminalizes prostitutes for public communication, so that could also be struck (because they have to hide or can't have lengthy screening talks, which could expose them to more danger).

I don't know about the other arguments, but avoiding as little communication as possible, or with less details, might be another one that could be struck for similar reasons as the latter (Edit: advertising is illegal now, so how the Charter protect them when they are breaking the law, irrespective of their immunity therefor?). What other arguments can be made as to risking their safety that would reverse the buying provision, I don't know.

So it begs the final question I posted in my post # 83.
 
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daydreamer41

New member
Sep 13, 2007
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Exactly.

I think where everyone seems to be getting confused is thinking it is LEGAL for the provider.

It is not LEGAL.

They have declared prostitution illegal.

Immunity
from prosecution from that illegal act is granted to anyone providing their own sexual services.

It is a weird reversed way of looking at it.

But, indeed as you say rld, Parliament adopted a policy and has passed a law that made prostitution illegal. That is a pretty cut and dried policy decision that governments are elected to enact. Courts seldom interfere with such policy.

It will be an uphill battle but I suspect after a year or so of some showboating, that enforcement will wane and the industry will adapt to the new reality.
Well, yes, you are right. They have made prostitution illegal in all cases, but have given immunity to only a particular party, the seller, which they are assuming is a woman although it could be a man selling sex to another man or to a woman.

Anyhow, if it the act is deemed illegal, by giving immunity to one party is the government not sanctioning selective prosecution by law? Is this a precedent in Canada? Do they have any other law which they give immunity to one party of an illegal act and prosecute the other?

You could argue by that they are targeting men by the preamble of the law which says: "Whereas it is important to protect human dignity and the equality of all Canadians by discouraging prostitution, which has a disproportionate impact on women and children." Taking children out of that equation (of course prostitution is illegal with children. It has been and should always be), isn't Section 15 of the charter not being violated by C-36?:

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
 

bobcat40

Member
Jan 25, 2006
570
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Bravo Bobcat40. Thanks for the refresher and clarification. However, like TP aptly said, the previous law was unconstitutional, because by FOLLOWING the previous law, it infringed on the security of the person under Section 7.

The new law still criminalizes prostitutes for public communication, so that could also be struck (because they have to hide or can't have lengthy screening talks, which could expose them to more danger).

I don't know about the other arguments, but avoiding as little communication as possible, or with less details, might be another one that could be struck for similar reasons as the latter. What other arguments can be made as to risking their safety that would reverse the buying provision, I don't know.

So it begs the final question I posted in my post # 83.
The reverse buying provision could easily replicate the harms of the previous laws. Many researchers have already come out and provided their expertise on the matter. They key issue is whether the court will accept a logical analysis of the effects of the law or will the court require hard scientific evidence.

Logically, if the cops heavily prosecute the transaction of sex, research has proven that the transactions will now occur in more discrete and dangerous areas. Another argument and the one I see being used is the fact that the entire law is predicated on the assumption that all John's are violent and dangerous. Research that proves this to be untrue could trigger a section 7 challenge as John's would be deprived of their liberty which probably is not in accordance with "fundamental justice". John's would be seen to be jailed based on a law which is overbroad. The test for this is set below:

The test for determining whether a law is over-broad is also found in Heywood:

1. What is the purpose of the legislation?

2. Are the means enacted to accomplish the legislative objectives “tailored to effect this purpose”?

3. Is the limitation of a right to life, liberty, or security of the person impaired “beyond what is necessary to accomplish” the governmental objectives?
If the underlying purpose is essentially to protect women, punishing well behaved and paying John's is most definitely not "tailored to effect the purpose" as the law could just punish abusive John's. Obviously the greatest challenge is producing evidence to support the idea that not all John's are dangerous and abusive.
 

asterwald

Active member
Dec 11, 2010
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More women are abused in relationships. This entire abuse angle is overblown and used to push the law.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
79,957
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0
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For all debating whether or not prostitution is legal or illegal under C-36, here is an opinion by actual lawyers (not the many armchair lawyers on terb...) on their submission for the Canadian Bar Association:



It basically their opinion that putting sex workers in danger is a violation of section 7 of the charter. Hence why so many of the elements of C-36 are vulnerable to a court challenge.
But, note, not the section that criminalized the purchase of sex. That part they explicitly said they had no comment on the constitutionality. Their constitutional arguments related only to the communications and avails laws, not the declaration that prostitution itself is illegal.
 

Titalian

No Regrets
Nov 27, 2012
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It will be an uphill battle but I suspect after a year or so of some showboating, that enforcement will wane and the industry will adapt to the new reality.
Very well put !! Btw, I like your handle.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
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The reverse buying provision could easily replicate the harms of the previous laws. Many researchers have already come out and provided their expertise on the matter. They key issue is whether the court will accept a logical analysis of the effects of the law or will the court require hard scientific evidence.

Logically, if the cops heavily prosecute the transaction of sex, research has proven that the transactions will now occur in more discrete and dangerous areas. Another argument and the one I see being used is the fact that the entire law is predicated on the assumption that all John's are violent and dangerous. Research that proves this to be untrue could trigger a section 7 challenge as John's would be deprived of their liberty which probably is not in accordance with "fundamental justice". John's would be seen to be jailed based on a law which is overbroad. The test for this is set below:



If the underlying purpose is essentially to protect women, punishing well behaved and paying John's is most definitely not "tailored to effect the purpose" as the law could just punish abusive John's. Obviously the greatest challenge is producing evidence to support the idea that not all John's are dangerous and abusive.

Excellent, but with C-36 (unlike the old laws contested in the Bedford case), SPs will have to break the law (by advertising and benefiting, aiding and abetting, despite their prosecutorial immunity). Can the SCC say, "sorry, he punched you after he short-changed you, but you still received consideration or benefited, which is illegal now ma'am. You can't blame the law for causing your assault ma'am. You shouldn't be doing this in the first place."?
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
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But, note, not the section that criminalized the purchase of sex. That part they explicitly said they had no comment on the constitutionality. Their constitutional arguments related only to the communications and avails laws, not the declaration that prostitution itself is illegal.
...and bawdy house laws.
 

Titalian

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Nov 27, 2012
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Absolutely and completely FALSE!!

My website and advertising is 100% C-36 compliant.... I can book a whole tour and not discuss sexual services for money once. Not once.

Read this slowly. BUYING SEX IS ILLEGAL. BUYING COMPANY IS NOT.
You see guys, this is what I'm talking about. Select the women you want to see diligently.
 

escapefromstress

New member
Mar 15, 2012
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Absolutely and completely FALSE!!

My website and advertising is 100% C-36 compliant.... I can book a whole tour and not discuss sexual services for money once. Not once.

Read this slowly. BUYING SEX IS ILLEGAL. BUYING COMPANY IS NOT.
You see guys, this is what I'm talking about. Select the women you want to see diligently.
MJL is an excellent role model for other SP's to emulate in their advertising. I checked out her website when she first announced it had been redone and agree that her advertising is 100% C-36 compliant. (and no, I'm not trying to get into your pants, just wanting to give credit where credit is due :wink: )

Also - since one cannot purchase that which is not being sold, the client has not violated C-36 either.
 

fuji

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Jan 31, 2005
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It would force workers to not work in those safe brothels. Which is pretty much the same reason the old law was unconstitutional. If it's legal they have a right to make a living safely.
That is pretty much the express point of the law and you have given no reason to think it would be unconstitutional. The government expressly intends to divert prostitutes to other lines of work.

The law is not intended to create safe brothels, it is intended to reduce demand by jailing customers, while exempting prostitutes from prosecution so as to narrowly comply with the SCC ruling.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
79,957
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0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
Also - since one cannot purchase that which is not being sold, the client has not violated C-36 either.
In other jurisdictions the prosecution has been effective in convincing juries that based on the price, context of advertising, etc., that although it had not been explicit stated there is a mutual tacit understanding that the money is for sex.

Or put it another way: if everyone reviewing your ad knows what you are really selling, then so will a jury.

The notion that you can evade prosecution through winks and nudges is dangerously wrong. Juries are staffed by people with human brains.
 

Titalian

No Regrets
Nov 27, 2012
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That is pretty much the express point of the law and you have given no reason to think it would be unconstitutional. The government expressly intends to divert prostitutes to other lines of work.

The law is not intended to create safe brothels, it is intended to reduce demand by jailing customers, while exempting prostitutes from prosecution so as to narrowly comply with the SCC ruling.
As if thats going to happen?? Your living in a pipedream !!! I have come to the realisation, that talking this way, you'd be the first one to be Jailed !
 

Ms.FemmeFatale

Behind the camera
Jun 18, 2011
3,125
1
36
www.msfemmefatale.com
In other jurisdictions the prosecution has been effective in convincing juries that based on the price, context of advertising, etc., that although it had not been explicit stated there is a mutual tacit understanding that the money is for sex.

Or put it another way: if everyone reviewing your ad knows what you are really selling, then so will a jury.

The notion that you can evade prosecution through winks and nudges is dangerously wrong. Juries are staffed by people with human brains.
Which is why there are not only no acronyms, there aren't those little phrases like girlfriend experience, or "hot time" or even incall/outcall, etc. I have been meeting with lawyers, agencies and indies for months coming up with proper usable terms. The point is not to fool people, the point is to create a LEGAL layer that CAN NOT be used against you or if it is, it is so vague that it would be meaningless in the big picture. If anything, some sites will be able to be used against the prosecution's claims.

Since it is ladies and agencies who have been referring to lawyers and other law professionals, maybe believing some of what they say and not just bashing it with your lack of knowledge will actually make threads like this more useful.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,333
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38
Absolutely and completely FALSE!!

My website and advertising is 100% C-36 compliant.... I can book a whole tour and not discuss sexual services for money once. Not once.

Read this slowly. BUYING SEX IS ILLEGAL. BUYING COMPANY IS NOT.

I'm speaking rhetorically and assuming no changes, based on concerns and criticisms previously raised, since immunity might make those SPs not as savvy as you complacent.

What would be the SCC's response to my hypothetical scenario?

(Sorry, didn't mean to raise your blood pressure, but thanks for your correction.).
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,333
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MJL is an excellent role model for other SP's to emulate in their advertising. I checked out her website when she first announced it had been redone and agree that her advertising is 100% C-36 compliant. (and no, I'm not trying to get into your pants, just wanting to give credit where credit is due :wink: )

Also - since one cannot purchase that which is not being sold, the client has not violated C-36 either.

Would a review change the situation?
 

escapefromstress

New member
Mar 15, 2012
943
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Which is why there are not only no acronyms, there aren't those little phrases like girlfriend experience, or "hot time" or even incall/outcall, etc. I have been meeting with lawyers, agencies and indies for months coming up with proper usable terms. The point is not to fool people, the point is to create a LEGAL layer that CAN NOT be used against you or if it is, it is so vague that it would be meaningless in the big picture. If anything, some sites will be able to be used against the prosecution's claims.

Since it is ladies and agencies who have been referring to lawyers and other law professionals, maybe believing some of what they say and not just bashing it with your lack of knowledge will actually make threads like this more useful.
I've been following your posts and watching your work and you've done an excellent job. Business savvy SP's have been planning and working for many months to be prepared for today.
 
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