Parents ? - Kumon or Oxford Learning Centres

peeler_feeler

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Dec 5, 2001
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I always get well informed opinions and information from the TERB communitiy, so I thought I would throw this one out for the parents in the crowd before I enroll my children:

Any parents out there who have had their children enrolled in either Kumon or Oxford Learning Centers?

Do you think it's worth the money to enroll them?

Did you find the results met your expectations?

Any other views positive or negative. All commentary is welcomed?

Thanks
 

bishop

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when I was yonger I was in kumon, i hated it, purely mechanical math. I quit after less than a year. If you want to groom an accountant then it would be fine.

My advice is this, educate your kids yourself. There is no substitution for a parents time. You send you kids to get educatedby someone else 7 hours a day, does your child really need more time being educated by someone else????

Bring the kid to the science center or plantarium, expose him/her to deep concepts, true intellegence is not mechanical, it is developed from deep thought. expose your child to deep thought.

When i was growing up i had neighbours who were in kumon, their parents always bragged as to how good in math their children were (I a chinese, so math is very important). Up until grade 12 my neighbours kids kicked my ass in math because math was so mechinical up to then, but in grade 13 when conceptual math was taught (calculus, geometry, finite) I destroyed them all. Most of my analytical abilities was spark by fighting games which lead me to computers which lead me to playing strategy games and exploring computer programming.

If you want truely intellgent kids and not surperfically intigent kids then kumon is not the answer, I do not know about oxford since i was never in it.

Let your kids have fun, show them interesting stuff, and leave it up to them to explore it. Even games are good. In general I find if your kids are bright then their true colors will come through eventually, a parent can only encourage their kids. Never force them to learn something that they do not want to learn. Some children just are not naturally gifted when it come to academics, parents should learn to accept this instead of trying to change them.
 

peeler_feeler

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Dec 5, 2001
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Bishop thanks for your feedback. My kids (ages 10 & 6) lack some self-dicipline & responsibility when it comes to school work or homework. They are reasonably intelligent and get decent grades but I find their attitude towards school somewhat lazy. I am sure some of that is due to my attitude towards our school system but that is another issue.

Anyway,
I was just thinking of keeping their minds on some school work during the summer so that their brains get a little exerciese too and stay in shape.
 

iam0234

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Aug 19, 2002
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I don¡¦t know about Oxford Learning but can talk a bit about Kumon as I do know many kids who have / had enrolled in it, not to mention that I used to be a tutor at Kumon in my student days - years ago. Firstly Kumon originates from Japan and adopts the Asian way of learning maths (at least elementary maths), which is built on the foundation of ¡§Practice makes Perfect¡¨. A student is taught how to get to the right answers mechanically but not necessarily why, on the premise that after a student has solved enough of the same questions correctly, he would eventually understand why. The western way is kind of the opposite in that students are taught to understand the principles of maths and that if they can understand the principles they would be able to give the right answers. Both have merits.

Let me explain the two approaches by a simple example. In Canadian elementary schools, students would learn that multiplication is merely repeated additions. Simple. Once this principle is grasped, students will have no problem in giving the right answer to a question like 4 x 3 (= adding 4, 3 times = 4 + 4 + 4 = 12). Great. Now, try this with 44 x 33 and some students will get stuck. The Asian (and Kumon) method is you don¡¦t have to know too much about the principle, just use the column method and go through the mechanics and you¡¦ll get the right answer, and eventually a student will understand why the column method works.

The two approaches compliment each other. A student would learn the principle of maths at school and learn how to apply those principles in practice at Kumon.

This said, however, it is my experience that many Canadian kids simply can¡¦t stand Kumon because they are asked to go through pages and pages of the same types of maths questions. I¡¦ve seen many drop-outs from Kumon because students couldn¡¦t stand the drill and monotony but then I¡¦ve also seen many who benefited from it.

Whether Kumon is right for your child depends on two factors: a) Your belief in putting your child through the gruesome drills of working through hundreds of maths questions each week, as parents, despite your child¡¦s complaint that it is BORING, which you will hear more likely than not, and more importantly, your child¡¦s tolerance level for the drills.

Two things about Kumon and similar Asian approaches tend to be overlooked in the western culture ¡V a) If your kid can withstand the drill, it establishes discipline, b) some kids do get motivated and become interested in maths if they could get the correct answers most of the time. Imagine the motivational factor in the classroom if a kid can give the right answers in seconds as opposed to minutes, if at all.

However, Kumon is an assembly line. If you are looking for means of teaching your child how to think, FORGET IT. Otherwise, it won¡¦t hurt to put him or her through. After all you can always pull out if it does not work. There are other schools that are more of the east meeting west.

Sorry for the long-winded answer.
 
Yeah man, I went o Kumon too and it was fucking insane ... its all mechanical math as noted by Bishop. Its no fun at all ... its all work and all you do is do stupid math equations over and over again ... its just boring. Learning should be fun ... ;)

And BTW, even when I was attending Kumon, I failed grade 11 math two times and grade 12 math three times. But suprisingly did pretty well in Finite, Geometry and Algebra and Calculus. Yet, I still hate math and still suck in math. Oh yeah, I also failed first year calculus in university. I got the third lowest grade in a class of 500 students. I got 22% ... LMAO ...

But then, the thing with math is trully a skill where practice makes perfect. But, I never liked math so my Heart and Mind were not One so I did not thrive in it. Another thing is ... I have no talent with numbers.
 

C Dick

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Feb 2, 2002
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Kumon and Oxford learning centre will both harm your child. You siad yourself that your children lack motivation, putting them in Kumon may teach them some math, but they will hate it and be even less motivated. If, on the other hand, you can help them enjoy learning things, they will be able to learn whatever they want quickly and painlessly. Math, like most things, is easy to learn when you are mature enough and ready. The first step is to remove them from the school system, which only serves to groom them for brain-dead cubicle jobs.

I could rant like this indefinitely (and back it up with lots of proof), but I'll force myself to stop now.
 

PayITForward

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If you're looking for summer ideas try a field the like and have no idea they're learning. The zoo has camps for the animal lover etc. Kepping they're minds active is great but a constant school setting is not. Otherwise come up with your own projects for the summer with a reward at the end. Animal research gets the zoo, Dinosaur study the ROM so on and so forth. Everything they want to do this summer can somehow be related to a study of something. The more they want it the more likely you'll get them to work. It works in my house.
 

papasmerf

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the best advice to any parent is to work wihth your kids. Begin reading with them by the age of two.

if you lack in MATH LEARN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you need to become litterate and kepp ahead of your kids. Face it you too are getting an education. You need others to pick up the slack?????????? Send me your wifes pic and I will let you know how much to help out.
 

Cosine

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Back in the day, my parents tried enrolling my brother in Kumon for over a year since his math skills were quite poor. They pulled him out of the program since grades weren't improving.

As mentioned in the thread, do not force the child into doing something he/she is not interested in; it may further diminish their interest in the subject.

I would recommend giving your kid musical instrument lessons. For myself, playing piano instilled discipline, work ethic, and broadened my artistic and mathematical senses.

- Cosine, TERB's resident mathematician!
 
Sep 12, 2002
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I had my kids in Kumon for a couple of years and they hated it. The problem with Kumon is that it is repetetive and does not progress quick enough. The teachers will argue that the kids progress at thier own rate. My kids wanted to move on and felt they were being held back. However, they all excel academically. I think it gave them an edge in concentration - due to the timing and perfection.
I agree with Cosine on music lessons. I think they broaden their interests and provide all kinds of intangible benefits. The other thing I would do is severely limit TV and video games. These are the real poisons to the mind. We limit them to Friday afternoons and Saturday mornings only. This way they are forced to find more meaningful ways to occupy their time (i.e. creative play, reading , building, sports)
 

iam0234

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Aug 19, 2002
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The consensus, so far, from the posters appears to be overwhelmingly against Kumon. While the points made all have merits, I would, however, like to offer a slightly different perspective.

As tutor at Kumon (albeit years ago and for less than a year), I saw many kids who came to the school either with problems in maths or otherwise lacked motivation. I remember one girl in particular who always showed up doomed face, with a fairly negative attitude, and refused to do any work both in class or at home. When I talked to her, at first her response was expected: ¡§Kumon sucks ¡K,. maths sucks ¡K., the teachers suck¡K., who need maths when there are calculators and computers ¡K., I don¡¦t need all these stupid exercises ¡K.¡¨, which frankly I had heard before, in various more polite versions. What was different about this girl was if I insisted on her doing the homework, evenly mildly, she would start crying.

To cut a long story short, after a few attempts I found out that she was actually scared of maths because she could seldom do them correctly. At that time, she was at the age of learning two to three digit divisions and she couldn¡¦t get any of them right though conceptually, she understood that division is nothing than repeated deductions, as she was taught at school. This is when perhaps Kumon (or similar approaches) can help. I still remember when I first ¡§hand-held¡¨ her to do long divisions, she kept asking me why, and I said ¡§don¡¦t ask why. Just follow the mechanics ¡Kand you will understand why.¡¨ Can you imagine the shit I would get if a professional teacher heard me saying that?

But it worked wonders. I could still remember the look on this girl¡¦s face when finally she was able to do her first long division right, without my help. Better still, she started to want to do more as she got more questions correct, and more, and more. She eventually became quite proficient in the subject. She still sends me a mail every now and then to keep in-touch, teasing me that I was the worst teacher she had had in her life ¡V turning her into a robot. She has just got her Master degree in Science and I hope she, by now, has grasped the concept of divisions rather than just the mechanics.

This might be an extreme case, but I have seen other similar examples. Not too long ago, a friend came to me for ¡§advice¡¨ on his 7-year old, who was OK with maths but hated it. His passion is in sports and he is from a very, very wealthy family, which can afford virtually everything in life. I guess his parents want to make sure that he has enough maths skills to manage the millions of dollars that would eventually end up in his bank account. So I gave him a few ideas among which was Kumon, though I told him it wouldn¡¦t work for his rich / spoiled little rascal. My friend went to check it out anyway, came back and gave me shit for suggesting an ¡§assembly line¡¨ (which Kumon is) but nonetheless, enrolled his son in it. And surprise, surprise, the little rascal loves it!! A serious sports player he is, there is a competitive spirit in him that being able to conquer pages and pages of maths questions gave him immense satisfactions. So now he jumps on maths problems at every opportunity.

Kids, like all of us, have a desire to achieve. Some get motivated by getting high academic scores, which may in turn fuel further interests, while others couldn¡¦t care less and do just as well. Am I a proponent of Kumon? Absolute Not ¡V it is indeed very tedious and boring and could be discouraging. Am I a proponent of drills as a compliment to the conceptual talks that kids learn from the formal education system? Yes, I am. For my own child, I sent him to a tutoring school, which was similar to Kumon (still drills but not as ridiculous) for about a year when he was in grade 4. I pulled him out when I felt that he had developed the discipline of doing homework. I think it worked for him.
 

onthebottom

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We enrolled my daughter in Kumon

and it worked very well. It was boring for her to do and me to correct but it hammered home the basics (3-4 grade). She went from the bottom third of her class to the top in those two years. Most importantly she doesn't think of herself as "bad at math" which can be a disabling self-image and now finds math boring but easy.

I'm a strong believer that people have self-images of themselves as "good at math" or "bad at math" from early on. Because math is additive (you have to know the first concept to understand the second...) if you fall behind it's hard to catch up.

If your kids have trouble with math do it, if not and you're trying to make them super stars, just relax and throw a ball with them.

OTB
 
Yes but ...

If you train your child in the maths so early she would probably end up as an engineer or a computer geek. And those people are trained in a way to think very mechnically. They can no longer thing like arts students ...

And that is why arts students say that science students can't think like them, where as arts students can think like science students ...

I guess it really depends on how and in what way you wish your child to be thinking and looking at the world ...

To me (maybe because I am biased because I am a product of the arts), arts students are the architects while the science students are the engineers who actually do the stuff. But in our modern society I guess we prefer the doers over the thinkers ...

But hey ... studies have proven that its is usually the students who were trained in the liberal arts tradition who have excelled ...
 

bishop

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Dave STFU go to kumon and get a job:)

It is not about being good at math makes you a geek. If your kids understand complex thought then, he/she can do anything. Math is not mechanical, real math is elegant and smooth. You would be so surprised as to how in the real work how a few equations can describe such seeming complex interactions.

Overall I am not saying kumon is bad. Your kids may like it or they may not. All I am saying is that if they do not like it then do not force them.
 
bishop said:
Dave STFU go to kumon and get a job

It is not about being good at math makes you a geek. If your kids understand complex thought then, he/she can do anything. Math is not mechanical, real math is elegant and smooth. You would be so surprised as to how in the real work how a few equations can describe such seeming complex interactions.

Overall I am not saying kumon is bad. Your kids may like it or they may not. All I am saying is that if they do not like it then do not force them.
No way man ... I ain't teaching math. It would be the last thing I'd do ... I don't think I can teach anything beyong trigonometry which is like grade 11 stuff ... LOL ...

Yes, you are right. Mathematics does wonders. It can even produce beautiful art pieces such as fractals which I enjoy admiring from time to time. Plus, Plato believed that the truth was in mathematics ...

To me, math is just boring ... I rather read and understand Plato then to read and understand Einstein and Stephen Hawking ... ;)
 
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