Our Mayor Dresses Up A Pig And Calls It A Beautiful Woman

[oldjones]

Simplified,...civil servant unions are less enlightened than private sector unions, with the exception of the CAW.

The CAW currently are meeting to pick a target,...not all of the big/little 3, just one, and of coarse, NOT Toyota and Honda.
You have to understand the economics of singling out one company,... becomes a threat, NOT a negotiation.
The Caw, being the MOST costly on the planet, want to increase the difference, under the guise of "sharing" the profit,...BUT as usual,...will NOT accept profit sharing.
Which ranks right up there with COLA, as displaying a complete lack of understanding economics.
You state that its not the Caw’s place to help run the plants efficiently,...you would be absolutely correct,...they did/do the opposite.

Repeating the ONLY 11 MILLION DOLLAR saving, completely misses the whole point of the exercise !!

FAST

Which suggest you at least believe the point of privatizing trash collection was to eliminate unions rather than deal with them effectively, or get the best result for our spending on waste removal. That would qualify as a being a union-hater above all else, in my view of things.

Moving entirely off topic: Your précis of CAW bargaining likely had a point when you began, but it didn't survive. Again, you credit the company side for having neither the brains nor the ability to see what was going on or to set their own agenda and strategy. In fact pattern bargaining is a long-established process developed over decades and imported from the US. It suits the interests of all to keep the major aspects of the playing field reasonably level between companies, and each one takes it's place in the hot seat in turn. If the companies thought they'd do better all talking at once, or by refusing to follow the pattern, nothing has ever stopped them. They could even do as in other industries (like mine) and league together, binding themselves to bargain as one association (they might even call it a union). They'd just have to get the guys across the table to go along, just like the union has to.

That's called bargaining.

A sidenote: You went on at length about the 'unenlightened' CAW without ever making clear to me what meaning you were attaching to 'enlightened', unless you mean accepting whatever the other side is peddling without comment or contrary opinion. Their concept of sharing profits differs from the companies', but only they are bargaining without any access to the books. On that basis I'd say they're stuck with being unenlightened, and as the companies and not the union wants it that way, it's entirely up to the companies to negociate deals that are 'good for the company'. No one's criticizing them for being unenlightened about what's good for their workers, but I'd say promising and then reneging on pensions qualifies.

 

[great bear]

want a job done? hire a private contractor. want a job done and don't mind waiting? hire a union shop.

 

[KBear]

... take the 1000 complaints vs. the City's typical 50 for a similar period But under the contract, ....

The city received 50 complaints per day before privatization, not per week.

Many of the 1000 complaints received over the last week would be from people living on the unionized side of Yonge.

How many of the 1000 complaints are reported from the union hotline?

 

[FAST]

The union reality

Which suggest you at least believe the point of privatizing trash collection was to eliminate unions rather than deal with them effectively, or get the best result for our spending on waste removal. That would qualify as a being a union-hater above all else, in my view of things.

Not complicated here,...can't be delt with,...witness the strike,...get ride of the problem,...not hate,...just common sense.

Moving entirely off topic: Your précis of CAW bargaining likely had a point when you began, but it didn't survive. Again, you credit the company side for having neither the brains nor the ability to see what was going on or to set their own agenda and strategy. In fact pattern bargaining is a long-established process developed over decades and imported from the US. It suits the interests of all to keep the major aspects of the playing field reasonably level between companies, and each one takes it's place in the hot seat in turn. If the companies thought they'd do better all talking at once, or by refusing to follow the pattern, nothing has ever stopped them. They could even do as in other industries (like mine) and league together, binding themselves to bargain as one association (they might even call it a union). They'd just have to get the guys across the table to go along, just like the union has to.

Sounds suspiciously like communism to me, and also illegal.

A sidenote: You went on at length about the 'unenlightened' CAW without ever making clear to me what meaning you were attaching to 'enlightened', unless you mean accepting whatever the other side is peddling without comment or contrary opinion. Their concept of sharing profits differs from the companies', but only they are bargaining without any access to the books. On that basis I'd say they're stuck with being unenlightened, and as the companies and not the union wants it that way, it's entirely up to the companies to negociate deals that are 'good for the company'. No one's criticizing them for being unenlightened about what's good for their workers, but I'd say promising and then reneging on pensions qualifies.

'enlightened' = reality.

FAST

 

[oldjones]

The city received 50 complaints per day before privatization, not per week.

Who said "per week"? According to The National Post: "…In a typical week, about 200 Toronto residents call the city with complaints about garbage pickup; last week the city received 1,044 such calls — not including calls to councillors". Better?

Many of the 1000 complaints received over the last week would be from people living on the unionized side of Yonge.

Evidence? But let's subtract half the normal calls from the 1044 total as coming from east of Yonge, where nothing changed. Leaves 944, or just shy of ten times normal for west of Yonge. Even dividing both totals in half still makes the change five times more problematic than normal unionized collection. Hardly a triumph, and only arguably acceptable (as well as being an entirely spurious calculation).

How many of the 1000 complaints are reported from the union hotline?

Does phoning a hotline make the complaint false? But it's your question, to make it into a point of some sort, you'd have to give some evidence that it happened at all, as well as why that 'invalidated' the problem reported.

These guys should eventually get as good as the crews they replaced. According to the Globe they seem to have underestimated the number of trucks they'd need on Day One by more than 25% (after twice calling in extras, they were somewhere around the usual number the City formerly assigned, and still failing), again hardly impressive, but they may improve. It remains to be seen whether or not they ever are profitable once they achieve and maintain service where the City's crews had it when we spent a whopping $1.50 more per household per collection. One notes their competitors bid higher.

If and when GFL is providing the service we had at the price they agreed to, then maybe we can say we've saved $11,000,000. But then or now there is one certainty: We would be a lot farther ahead if we'd saved the $11,000,000 by reducing the tonnage of trash we waste every year. And we'd need to pay fewer workers to haul the rest of it away, whoever signs their cheques.

 

[oldjones]

Not complicated here,...can't be delt with,...witness the strike,...get ride of the problem,...not hate,...just common sense.



Sounds suspiciously like communism to me, and also illegal.




'enlightened' = reality.

FAST

Only the middle sentence has content, but neither part is true; nothing like communism, and as legal as it is common. BTW I used the word 'league' deliberately, because the National Hockey League is currently bargaining with the players' union even though those well-paid union members are employed by individual team owners. It should be noted that one of the stated communistic purposes of the league is to a achieve a more level playing-field. Or should that be 'more level rink'? When will the Joint RCMP-FBI TaskForce be hauling Gary Bettman off? And under what law?

As for the other two strings of words: You clearly show union=problem in your version of 'common sense', which perverts that phrase into 'hate', as I said. No point in slinging labels back and forth if there are no more no facts to discuss. As for the second, whatever you meant by 'enlightened' = reality, an adjective which describes an aspect of some thing, can never equal a noun which names a thing. Nor can such an equation convey any meaning. Eqally useful to say 'blue=truck'.

if only I was as fast as you, I might be able to fathom the intention of bits like the above. Even if they're a direct reply to something I've said, it's too much trouble parsing out the meaning. Or reading it in. I do get your usual attitude to my posts, so I guess we each will have to take the thought for the deed, because I'll just leave them be.

 

[FAST]

The union religion

Only the middle sentence has content, but neither part is true. BTW I used the word 'league' deliberately, considering the National Hockey League is currently bargaining with the players' union even though those well-paid union members are employed by individual team owners. It should be noted that one of the stated communistic purposes of the league is to a achieve a more level playing-field. Or should that be 'more level rink'? When will the Joint RCMP-FBI TaskForce be hauling Gary Bettman off? And under what law?.

Problem with that "logic" is,...there is only ONE National Hockey league, IF there was another league competing with the National Hockey league at the same level, you may have a point.

As for the other two strings of words: It's clear unions are a problem in your version of 'common sense', which perverts that word into 'hate', as I said..

DUDE,...I said that getting rid of the union was common sense,...has nothing to do with "hate", which is a word YOU introduced.

No point in slinging labels if you have no facts to discuss. As for the second, whatever you meant by 'enlightened' = reality an adjective which describes an aspect of a thing, can never equal a noun which names a thing. Nor can such an equation convey any meaning.

Let me help you out here,...if some one has a grasp of "reality", means that person would be "enlightened".

And lets lose the grammer lessons, this about the union religion !!

FAST

 

[oldjones]

Read: I already said the players are employed by the team owners. There are many of them, but they have all agreed to bargain as one. As could the automakers, if they chose. Neither illegal nor communist. Whether or not there was some competing league might matter to some other point, but not the one you raised here or earlier.

Read: I already said your idea of common-sense is my idea of hate. Also that merely continuing to trade our personal labels without facts was pointless. As you so clearly illustrated.

At last, content by correction: I myself might prefer to call one who has a grasp of reality 'realistic' and save 'enlightened' for someone who had seen a the light of a higher purpose, never mind. Going back to where the word first was used it would appear you believe it would be 'unrealistic'/'unenlightened' if we expected the car company reps to advance and protect their corporate interests as diligently as the unions were advancing and protecting the interests of their members. Presumably their 'unenlightenment' extended to failing to predict just how ineptly the company would balance its books and manage sales to support the contract it was about to sign.

Assuming the management folks on the other side have an equal obligation to be enlightened and push only for what was in the interest of those opposite, can you give an example of one of their 'enlightened' wage and benefit offers? And why anyone should believe in or accept it? Do you accept the enlightened price the company asks for the car without bargaining? Was it the enlightened grasp of reality the car companies had that bankrupted them? Or did those unenlightened union guys somehow talk them out of their enlightened state. How unrealistic!.

And lets loose the grammer lessons, this about the union religion !!

And you were doing so well. The word is 'lose', 'loose' describes morals, change, or logic, actually the lack of logic, especially in a phrase with 'fast and …' . Sorry the grammar stuff hurts, but if you aren't making sense, grammar might help. As I said above, I'm tired and so no sense no response from here on.

But "…this about union religion" is only in your mind. It is about making the City we live in a better place. If you're not alone in mixing that up with religion, never mind with unions, no wonder we can't even manage garbage contracts without stupid hassles.

Let's try to be enlightened and deal with the realities of getting the trash hauled.