Ontario Bankruptcy
- Thread starter Gibby
- Start date
But the Fiberals have a plan,... they are going to raise funds by auctioning of rights to sell booze in grocery stores, which by the way,...in typical civil servant fashion of short sightedness and greed, the union publically disagrees with,...and selling Hydro One,...so know worries.How long before the start of the Ontario Bankruptcy?
FAST
We shall see.But the Fiberals have a plan,... they are going to raise funds by auctioning of rights to sell booze in grocery stores, which by the way,...in typical civil servant fashion of short sightedness and greed, the union publically disagrees with,...and selling Hydro One,...so know worries.
FAST
I can picture the government allowing large groceries to buy the right to sell wine and beer.
The selloff of Hydro One shares is another matter. It's a huge gamble for a government that has already made a mess of the total energy file. This idea always starts with projections of a quick windfall for government but usually governments get cold feet when it comes time to pull the trigger.
Wynne is desperate for cash but just how desperate remains unclear.
Two years after interest rates start to riseI think the way we are going...we have about 5 years before the big crash here.
a parameter completely out of the provincial govt control
The liberals have been unbelievably irresponsible
We're already Bankrupt. So is the rest of the Country and the World. It's called "fiat currency" and "usury". Mathematically in a system built upon debt there reaches an inflection point where the interest and the debt owing overwhelms the system. We jumped the shark a long time ago. There will be a massive crash. A massive War. Or both. I suspect both.
BS
BS
The Province of Ontario is still a long way from bankruptcy, even though we're farther away from solvency than ever before.
We were in very good financial shape after decades of Progressive Conservative governance, and had largely recovered from years of NDP (and Liberal) governance, but the current Liberal government is bent on selling the furniture to pay their friends.
It will take decades to recover from this mess.
We were in very good financial shape after decades of Progressive Conservative governance, and had largely recovered from years of NDP (and Liberal) governance, but the current Liberal government is bent on selling the furniture to pay their friends.
It will take decades to recover from this mess.
His dream
FAST
Says the commie in waiting,...!!!We're already Bankrupt. So is the rest of the Country and the World. It's called "fiat currency" and "usury". Mathematically in a system built upon debt there reaches an inflection point where the interest and the debt owing overwhelms the system. We jumped the shark a long time ago. There will be a massive crash. A massive War. Or both. I suspect both.
BS
FAST
Not in our lifetime.How long before the start of the Ontario Bankruptcy?
If you're talking about Bill Davis, I agree. Mike Harris really fucked the province over and was one of the worst fiscal managers EVER, incurring huge future costs in the name of making short-term spending look better than it was, hiding vast debts with accounting tricks, etc., implementing "reforms" that turned out to be expensive boondoggles. However, in the first few years McGuinty did clean up most of the Harris mess, so that's not why we're in trouble now. (Though, it's still why Toronto is in trouble.)The Province of Ontario is still a long way from bankruptcy, even though we're farther away from solvency than ever before.
We were in very good financial shape after decades of Progressive Conservative governance, and had largely recovered from years of NDP (and Liberal) governance, but the current Liberal government is bent on selling the furniture to pay their friends.
It will take decades to recover from this mess.
The real problem for Ontario has been the Harper government, with its pro-oil outlook that absolutely trashed the manufacturing economy in Canada on which Ontario is based. His policies favouring oil exports in every case without any compensating currency control resulted in wild currency swings that pushed manufacturers out of business. It's called "dutch disease".
Now that the price of oil is low we're like the dog with a bone who saw his reflection in the pool -- we lost both. No oil revenue. No manufacturing. Gee, thanks Harper!
You can't seriously believe this drivel. Blaming Ontario collapse on Federal conservatives economic policy and Mike Harris who hasn't been in power for over a decade. Talk about ridiculous. The blame squarely lies on the shoulders of the Liberals who have seriously mismanaged the economy through green energy policy, investing tax dollars in GM (instead of Honda or Toyota), wasting billions of taxpayer dollars and not taking the labour productivity concerns of the past two decades more seriously.If you're talking about Bill Davis, I agree. Mike Harris really fucked the province over and was one of the worst fiscal managers EVER, incurring huge future costs in the name of making short-term spending look better than it was, hiding vast debts with accounting tricks, etc., implementing "reforms" that turned out to be expensive boondoggles. However, in the first few years McGuinty did clean up most of the Harris mess, so that's not why we're in trouble now. (Though, it's still why Toronto is in trouble.)
The real problem for Ontario has been the Harper government, with its pro-oil outlook that absolutely trashed the manufacturing economy in Canada on which Ontario is based. His policies favouring oil exports in every case without any compensating currency control resulted in wild currency swings that pushed manufacturers out of business. It's called "dutch disease".
Now that the price of oil is low we're like the dog with a bone who saw his reflection in the pool -- we lost both. No oil revenue. No manufacturing. Gee, thanks Harper!
Please work on your English comprehension skills, read this again, looking up the words as you need to, and don't be afraid to ask for help: "However, in the first few years McGuinty did clean up most of the Harris mess, so that's not why we're in trouble now."You can't seriously believe this drivel. Blaming Ontario collapse on Federal conservatives economic policy and Mike Harris who hasn't been in power for over a decade. Talk about ridiculous. The blame squarely lies on the shoulders of the Liberals who have seriously mismanaged the economy through green energy policy, investing tax dollars in GM (instead of Honda or Toyota), wasting billions of taxpayer dollars and not taking the labour productivity concerns of the past two decades more seriously.
Certainly our Federal government's anti-manufacturing, pro-oil policy is a major factor in the decline of Ontario industry. No one would say that is the only problem (manufacturing in nearby US states is equally struggling) but it certainly is one of the problems. Much more of an impact than anything the Ontario government has done. And if you bring up energy prices I will slap you silly since industry is migrating to countries with HIGHER energy prices.
Between the day a factory receives a large order, and the day it sells it, there is a substantial time gap. An unstable petro-dollar creates huge currency risk -- just in the last couple of months a 20% shift in prices. No manufacturing business can thrive in a climate where its revenues on an order fluctuate by 20% due to factors beyond its control! And that is the impact of the oil policies pursued by the Federal government. They could have taken steps to neutralize the impact of oil on the dollar, to protect other industry, but that's not what the string pullers in Calgary want Harper to do.
You don't think Ontario's Manufactoring has gone the way of other rust belt States in the US? Wouldn't that be hard to blame on Harper? I would say that the petro loonie didn't help.If you're talking about Bill Davis, I agree. Mike Harris really fucked the province over and was one of the worst fiscal managers EVER, incurring huge future costs in the name of making short-term spending look better than it was, hiding vast debts with accounting tricks, etc., implementing "reforms" that turned out to be expensive boondoggles. However, in the first few years McGuinty did clean up most of the Harris mess, so that's not why we're in trouble now. (Though, it's still why Toronto is in trouble.)
The real problem for Ontario has been the Harper government, with its pro-oil outlook that absolutely trashed the manufacturing economy in Canada on which Ontario is based. His policies favouring oil exports in every case without any compensating currency control resulted in wild currency swings that pushed manufacturers out of business. It's called "dutch disease".
Now that the price of oil is low we're like the dog with a bone who saw his reflection in the pool -- we lost both. No oil revenue. No manufacturing. Gee, thanks Harper!
Two things:
Government debt loads are often expressed as a share of GDP because GDP is a good proxy for a government’s ability to generate tax revenues. Quebec’s net government debt is about 53 per cent of GDP; Ontario’s is 41 per cent. This doesn’t sound very alarming compared to countries in southern Europe (Greece’s was at 110 per cent of GDP in 2008), but debt-to-GDP ratios severely understate Canadian provinces’ indebtedness. Queen’s Park and Quebec City share their tax bases with Ottawa, so their ability to extract revenues is restrained. They are closer to the debt wall than what their debt-GDP ratios suggest.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...ld-take-from-the-greece-crisis/#__federated=1
Canadian Household Debt Hits a New All-Time High
By ARI CHARNEY on MARCH 13, 2015
There’s always that one thing everyone failed to anticipate that ends up reverberating through the economy. For Canada, it’s the collapse in crude oil prices.
And some things that were less worrisome when oil traded near triple digits are obviously much more so today, such as the ratio of debt to disposable income among Canadian consumers. According to Statistics Canada (StatCan), that figure set a new all-time high in the fourth quarter of 163.3%, up from 162.7% in third quarter.
http://www.investingdaily.com/22344/canadian-household-debt-hits-a-new-all-time-high-2/
Government debt loads are often expressed as a share of GDP because GDP is a good proxy for a government’s ability to generate tax revenues. Quebec’s net government debt is about 53 per cent of GDP; Ontario’s is 41 per cent. This doesn’t sound very alarming compared to countries in southern Europe (Greece’s was at 110 per cent of GDP in 2008), but debt-to-GDP ratios severely understate Canadian provinces’ indebtedness. Queen’s Park and Quebec City share their tax bases with Ottawa, so their ability to extract revenues is restrained. They are closer to the debt wall than what their debt-GDP ratios suggest.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...ld-take-from-the-greece-crisis/#__federated=1
Canadian Household Debt Hits a New All-Time High
By ARI CHARNEY on MARCH 13, 2015
There’s always that one thing everyone failed to anticipate that ends up reverberating through the economy. For Canada, it’s the collapse in crude oil prices.
And some things that were less worrisome when oil traded near triple digits are obviously much more so today, such as the ratio of debt to disposable income among Canadian consumers. According to Statistics Canada (StatCan), that figure set a new all-time high in the fourth quarter of 163.3%, up from 162.7% in third quarter.
http://www.investingdaily.com/22344/canadian-household-debt-hits-a-new-all-time-high-2/
You do not have a clue what you are speaking of if you think you can misdirect blame for what Dalton / Wynne have done here.If you're talking about Bill Davis, I agree. Mike Harris really fucked the province over and was one of the worst fiscal managers EVER, incurring huge future costs in the name of making short-term spending look better than it was, hiding vast debts with accounting tricks, etc., implementing "reforms" that turned out to be expensive boondoggles. However, in the first few years McGuinty did clean up most of the Harris mess, so that's not why we're in trouble now. (Though, it's still why Toronto is in trouble.)
The real problem for Ontario has been the Harper government, with its pro-oil outlook that absolutely trashed the manufacturing economy in Canada on which Ontario is based. His policies favouring oil exports in every case without any compensating currency control resulted in wild currency swings that pushed manufacturers out of business. It's called "dutch disease".
Now that the price of oil is low we're like the dog with a bone who saw his reflection in the pool -- we lost both. No oil revenue. No manufacturing. Gee, thanks Harper!
These two morons spent like drunken sailors on shore leave without any regard for where the $ was coming from
Just look at the debt to GDP ratio
http://www.ofina.on.ca/borrowing_debt/borrowhistory.htm
It was 27.1% when the liberals came to power in 2002, now after 13 years of liberal mismanagement it is almost 40%.
That is unsustainable and will result in a series of very bad outcomes for the fools who voted Wynne (along with the rest of the province)
Blaming PM Harper for Ontario's lack of competitiveness and inability to retain manufacturing is both inaccurate and without basis.
Those jobs were leaving regardless of who was in Ottawa.
"Pro-oil" ?? what an idiot you are
We have a commodity which was in demand. The market drove up the loonie because our resource was being bought
Now if it was simple matter of the currency, then why has the manufacturing sector not rebounded as the loonie depreciated, Einstein ??
Because the manufacturing sector is still not competitive that's is why,
Again nothing PM Harper did, rather it is what the unions, Dalton, Wynne and the companies have not done.
You have on over inflated opinion of your own intelligence.
The truth of the matter is that you are an idiot
You have NO clue what about you are spinning here.Please work on your English comprehension skills, read this again, looking up the words as you need to, and don't be afraid to ask for help: "However, in the first few years McGuinty did clean up most of the Harris mess, so that's not why we're in trouble now."
Certainly our Federal government's anti-manufacturing, pro-oil policy is a major factor in the decline of Ontario industry. No one would say that is the only problem (manufacturing in nearby US states is equally struggling) but it certainly is one of the problems. Much more of an impact than anything the Ontario government has done. And if you bring up energy prices I will slap you silly since industry is migrating to countries with HIGHER energy prices.
Between the day a factory receives a large order, and the day it sells it, there is a substantial time gap. An unstable petro-dollar creates huge currency risk -- just in the last couple of months a 20% shift in prices. No manufacturing business can thrive in a climate where its revenues on an order fluctuate by 20% due to factors beyond its control! And that is the impact of the oil policies pursued by the Federal government. They could have taken steps to neutralize the impact of oil on the dollar, to protect other industry, but that's not what the string pullers in Calgary want Harper to do.
How the hell can one blame Harris for losing manufacturing jobs in Ontario,...if anything,... he made the environment better for manufacturing,...even after having to deal with the Federal Fiberals cutting payments to Ontario.
And what the hell has tax "revenue" got to do with manufacturing,...NOTHING,...
As far a the dollar fluctuating,...its been doing that for ever,...as low as .65 and as high as $1.10,...well before oil had ANY influence on the CDN $.
You can't "protect" industry,...Protectionism does NOT work,...and what the Ont. Fiberals are doing,...doesn't either.
FAST
None of which has a damned thing to do with the topic. We are discussing the fate of manufacturing business in Ontario, not the Ontario budget.You do not have a clue what you are speaking of if you think you can misdirect blame for what Dalton / Wynne have done here.
These two morons spent like drunken sailors on shore leave without any regard for where the $ was coming from
Just look at the debt to GDP ratio
http://www.ofina.on.ca/borrowing_debt/borrowhistory.htm
It was 27.1% when the liberals came to power in 2002, now after 13 years of liberal mismanagement it is almost 40%.
That is unsustainable and will result in a series of very bad outcomes for the fools who voted Wynne (along with the rest of the province)
Sorry but it is a solid fact that the petro dollar has resulted in huge currency swings that seriously destabilize industry. Whether you like it or not. Now go off and ride your anti-Wynne hobby horse on another thread, Harper owns this one.Blaming PM Harper for Ontario's lack of competitiveness and inability to retain manufacturing is both inaccurate and without basis.
If you think that the Federal government had nothing to do with the quantity of oil exported you are delusional. How do you think oil gets out of the country? Do you think it grows wings and flies on its own? No. It goes out in pipelines and trains, all of which required Federal regulatory approval. One of many zillions of approvals that were required.We have a commodity which was in demand. The market drove up the loonie because our resource was being bought
Moreover the government is entirely capable of implementing currency policies that would neutralize the impact of oil sales on currency.
It's the volatility that kills manufacturing. Looking over the past six months or so, I see ENORMOUS volatility. Don't you?Now if it was simple matter of the currency, then why has the manufacturing sector not rebounded as the loonie depreciated, Einstein ??
Do some research on dutch disease (google it) and come back and post some more on this thread when you have been educated a little better than you are.
It's a simple fact that volatility has increased with oil exports, and for an obvious reason: the price of oil is volatile. What is important to exporters is not the absolute value of the dollar, but its predictability. If the dollar climbs slowly up to $1.10 in a predictable way that can be planned for (you can price your exports appropriately even though you won't ship for 6 months). If the dollar climbs by 25% in a half year that's a whole other ballgame -- it leaves you having no real idea what price you will get for your products, or how much you will pay for imported parts.As far a the dollar fluctuating,...its been doing that for ever,...as low as .65 and as high as $1.10,...well before oil had ANY influence on the CDN $.
Consider the tightly integrated auto manufacturing business between Ontario and Detroit and ask yourself how to write contracts in the supply chain when prices go up and down by 20% every quarter. You're bringing in parts from Japan, bringing in parts from the US, assembling them together with local manufactured parts, and then exporting the finished product for sale to the US -- but you have no idea what anything is going to cost or what you're going to get for your product. Nobody can run a business that way!
Wrong again Fuji the Fool, check the title of the thread.None of which has a damned thing to do with the topic. We are discussing the fate of manufacturing business in Ontario, not the Ontario budget.
Once again you have your head up your assSorry but it is a solid fact that the petro dollar has resulted in huge currency swings that seriously destabilize industry. Whether you like it or not. Now go off and ride your anti-Wynne hobby horse on another thread, Harper owns this one.
The BoC has far more influence over interest rates & hence currency than the PM
The BoC operates independent of political parties & acts in the best interest of the economy
Perhaps a refresher economics 101 should be in your future
They facilitate requests to transport as per the demands of the marketIf you think that the Federal government had nothing to do with the quantity of oil exported you are delusional. How do you think oil gets out of the country? Do you think it grows wings and flies on its own? No. It goes out in pipelines and trains, all of which required Federal regulatory approval. One of many zillions of approvals that were required.
Idiots like you would try (and fail) to "manage" the economy by promoting bureaucratic brakes on economic development (ie holding up permits).
This is pure evil as it creates no economic value (actually reduces it) and it driven by a political agenda (East vs. West)
Ontario & Quebec economies are based upon rusting sunset manufacturing with very limited future prospects
Western Canada has resources which are (were) in demand.
You want to hold back the West to prop up the inefficient and non competitive East.
#1. It will not work. You are so arrogant you think you are smarter than the market
#2. Better to fix the broken mess , rather than breaking what is working to even the playing field. ie Fix the manufacturing before trying to screw the oil producers
#3. It is morally wrong for you to decide who to hold back
#4. Billions of $ have been invested to get the resources flowing & you think you have the right to judge when it is impacting the dollar too much
See above idiotMoreover the government is entirely capable of implementing currency policies that would neutralize the impact of oil sales on currency.
It is far more simple than thatIt's the volatility that kills manufacturing. Looking over the past six months or so, I see ENORMOUS volatility. Don't you?
Our manufacturing sector is not competitive
For decades they hide behind a dollar worth $0.60-$0.80 &failed to make the needed improvements in productivity.
The businesses did not make the necessary investments
The unions appear to understand economic even less than you (see how they fared)
The provincial governments continued to apply excessive payroll taxes.
Currency volatility is far down the list when it comes to deciding where to set up shop
Quick question for you idiot
If as you say currency volatility is killing manufacturing, then why has the sector constantly eroded over the last thirty years in Ontario?
What an idiot you are
Ha HaDo some research on dutch disease (google it) and come back and post some more on this thread when you have been educated a little better than you are.
That's too funny.
You propose a flawed and foolish solution when you do not understand the problem, trying to fix Ontario by screwing up Alberta.
You need to take some economics courses and probably need an intervention to cure your arrogance (small probability of success there).
Like most left wing nuts you foolishly think you can control an economy.
I just hope you are not responsible for anything more complex than a paper route
All that hot air boils down to your BELIEF that the Federal government should not restrict oil exports, no matter how harmful they become too the economy.
Your BELIEF leads to economic ruin. I don't agree with your BELIEF.
As for the past thirty years how about you go chart oil exports, currency volatility, and non oil industrial investment. See if you can spot a trend.
Is the petro dollar the only factor? No. But it is the primary factor that the government has control of. There are lots of factors that the government has no control over, we are just discussing those that the government influences.
Your BELIEF leads to economic ruin. I don't agree with your BELIEF.
As for the past thirty years how about you go chart oil exports, currency volatility, and non oil industrial investment. See if you can spot a trend.
Is the petro dollar the only factor? No. But it is the primary factor that the government has control of. There are lots of factors that the government has no control over, we are just discussing those that the government influences.
