Sounds like Mayor John Tory is doing a very responsible job being Mayor and holding idiots accountable.
Great job Mayor John Tory!
One of the firms cause $400m overrun is hired by John Tory's TTC 4 new Scarb Subway
- Thread starter boodog
- Start date
Great job Mayor John Tory!
The original budget for the project was $2.634 billion.Any project manager worth half his salary knows that a standard contingency in a project budget is about 15 to 20 percent... this fits right in.
The most recently announced projected cost overrun is $150m.
What percentage is that?
Get your mommy to bring you a calculator.The original budget for the project was $2.634 billion.
The most recently announced projected cost overrun is $150m.
What percentage is that?
You DO realize that total project budget numbers INCLUDE contingency, right?
That means this $150m overrun is ON TOP of the $2.634b TOTAL budget INCLUDING whatever contingency they allocated.
Can you be kind enough to show us the links?Get your mommy to bring you a calculator.
You DO realize that total project budget numbers INCLUDE contingency, right?
That means this $150m overrun is ON TOP of the $2.634b TOTAL budget INCLUDING whatever contingency they allocated.
If the $2.634B does include contingency fund did it include, for example, delay fee/charges lawsuits by sub-contractors created by situation of industrial death on contruction site? What contingency it covers?
I'm not the project manager idiot... if you want answers to those questions, here is a very useful link: http://www.google.comCan you be kind enough to show us the links?
If the $2.634B includes contingnecy fund did it include delay fee/charges lawsuits by sub-contractors created by situation of industrial death on contruction site?
But let me give you an introductory lesson into project management:
Contingency is a part of every project... it is designed to accommodate unexpected situations.
Are delay fees unexpected? Are lawsuits unexpected? Are deaths unexpected?
If a project has OVERRUN... that means it has exhausted it's contingency.
Do you understand, or should I get your mommy to explain it to you with big boy blocks and a chalk board?
Not the project manager, eh?I'm not the project manager idiot... if you want answers to those questions, here is a very useful link: http://www.google.com
But let me give you an introductory lesson into project management:
Contingency is a part of every project... it is designed to accommodate unexpected situations.
Are delay fees unexpected? Are lawsuits unexpected? Are deaths unexpected?
If a project has OVERRUN... that means it has exhausted it's contingency.
Do you understand, or should I get your mommy to explain it to you with big boy blocks and a chalk board?
(R u a project manager?)
So you have no idea the definition of "Contingency Fund" on this particular contracts and sub-contracts?
You are relying on your, destillat, common sense on TTC underground subway construction to figure out what should be and could be included in "Contingency Fund"?
I am not THE project manager, asshole... but I am A certified project manager.Not the project manager, eh?
(R u a project manager?)
So you have no idea the definition of "Contingency Fund" on this particular contracts and sub-contracts?
You are relying on your, destillat, common sense on TTC underground subway construction to figure out what should be and could be included in "Contingency Fund"?
If you knew ANYTHING about project management, the basic fundamental is that no matter how big or small, every properly run project follows that same framework.
Part of that framework is a contingency fund... the definition of a contingency fund (even outside of the project management framework, asshole) is a pool of money to cover unexpected expenses.
It could be a $5b project, a $10,000 project, or a fucking vacation to Disney World... the definition of 'contingency fund' is the same, you fuckhead... so now, go back into your mommy's basement and log into World of Warcraft and stop bothering the adults.
They were made scape goats by Andy Byford.It was announced to-day the projected extra, isn't $400m, is $150m in which Toronto is responsible for $90m and York Region for the rest $60m.
The two responsible persons, chief capital officer Sameh Ghaly and chief project manager Andy Bertolo, are not going to receive Order of Canada. They were fired by the John Tory's TTC yesterday.
What's your read on these?
Simple as that.
I don't know what the reasons are for the 400 million over-run, or whatever the figures are.
I don't see how those over-runs could be attributed to Ghaly or Bertolo though. It's not their design, and they aren't the construction company doing the work.
It all comes down to the design and the specs and the contract. If the design had a pile of errors and omissions in it, then it's the designer's fault. If there were a pile of unanticipated complications (you're building a subway underground), then it is what it is and it's the owners problem since he owns the property.
It all comes down to the contract. What's in the contract, what's the Contractor responsible for. If you ask the contractor to do something that is outside the scope of the work, you need to pay him extra. If your contract is weak, or you are hanging your hat on weasel clauses, then you're going to lose because the contractor will simply launch claims that you as the owner did not provide him with sufficient information for him (the Contractor) to quantify his bid correctly. As an Owner, you can sing and dance and shake rubber chickens all you want, but most huge contractors really don't scare easily. They know what they are responsible for and what they are not responsible for. If you don't want to address their claims, they (the Contractor) will then have to decide whether or not they want to go legal. (And usually, they are not afraid to go legal.) So you as an Owner (the City, TTC, Metrolinx) had better be damn sure that you are in the right because a judge will simply weigh the evidence as it pertains to the Contract between the Owner and the Contractor. The judge won't get all caught up in the political hysteria that you see in the media. What are the facts in the Contract.
If the Contract does not specifically state what the Contractor is responsible for, the Owner WILL LOSE. Every time. And it will cost the owner orders of magnitude more to settle the claim.
Any responsible Civil Engineer involved in these sorts of projects knows this and if there is a consensus that the contract is weak, or information is lacking, the Owner (the City, Metrolinx, or TTC) would be very wise to settle with the Contractor rather than go to court.
If however, the Contractor is full of shit (and there are times when they are), then the Owner has to have the balls to tell the Contractor that he won't be getting any more money and to keep on working.
It all comes down to experience and knowing the difference between right and wrong.
I totally suspect that Mr. Bertolo from the TTC was doing the right thing.
According to the CBC report:They were made scape goats by Andy Byford.
Simple as that.
I don't know what the reasons are for the 400 million over-run, or whatever the figures are.
I don't see how those over-runs could be attributed to Ghaly or Bertolo though. It's not their design, and they aren't the construction company doing the work.
It all comes down to the design and the specs and the contract. If the design had a pile of errors and omissions in it, then it's the designer's fault. If there were a pile of unanticipated complications (you're building a subway underground), then it is what it is and it's the owners problem since he owns the property.
It all comes down to the contract. What's in the contract, what's the Contractor responsible for. If you ask the contractor to do something that is outside the scope of the work, you need to pay him extra. If your contract is weak, or you are hanging your hat on weasel clauses, then you're going to lose because the contractor will simply launch claims that you as the owner did not provide him with sufficient information for him (the Contractor) to quantify his bid correctly. As an Owner, you can sing and dance and shake rubber chickens all you want, but most huge contractors really don't scare easily. They know what they are responsible for and what they are not responsible for. If you don't want to address their claims, they (the Contractor) will then have to decide whether or not they want to go legal. (And usually, they are not afraid to go legal.) So you as an Owner (the City, TTC, Metrolinx) had better be damn sure that you are in the right because a judge will simply weigh the evidence as it pertains to the Contract between the Owner and the Contractor. The judge won't get all caught up in the political hysteria that you see in the media. What are the facts in the Contract.
If the Contract does not specifically state what the Contractor is responsible for, the Owner WILL LOSE. Every time. And it will cost the owner orders of magnitude more to settle the claim.
Any responsible Civil Engineer involved in these sorts of projects knows this and if there is a consensus that the contract is weak, or information is lacking, the Owner (the City, Metrolinx, or TTC) would be very wise to settle with the Contractor rather than go to court.
If however, the Contractor is full of shit (and there are times when they are), then the Owner has to have the balls to tell the Contractor that he won't be getting any more money and to keep on working.
It all comes down to experience and knowing the difference between right and wrong.
I totally suspect that Mr. Bertolo from the TTC was doing the right thing.
The report released Friday points to a number of factors that delayed the project, including:
1) Difficulty finalizing station designs with various groups involved.
2) Delays locating utilities.
3) A fatal accident at the York University Station site in October 2011 in which a worker was killed. The TTC report says the province's labour ministry shut down the York University station site until its investigation wrapped up in February 2012.
4) TTC's relationship with some of the contractors that became "strained" over issues of scheduling, premiums and incentives.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...xtension-to-cost-at-least-150m-more-1.3003171
Is that fair to fire The two responsible persons, chief capital officer Sameh Ghaly and chief project manager Andy Bertolo?
A competent project manager would have mitigated these issues by means of:According to the CBC report:
The report released Friday points to a number of factors that delayed the project, including:
1) Difficulty finalizing station designs with various groups involved.
2) Delays locating utilities.
3) A fatal accident at the York University Station site in October 2011 in which a worker was killed. The TTC report says the province's labour ministry shut down the York University station site until its investigation wrapped up in February 2012.
4) TTC's relationship with some of the contractors that became "strained" over issues of scheduling, premiums and incentives.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...xtension-to-cost-at-least-150m-more-1.3003171
Is that fair to fire The two responsible persons, chief capital officer Sameh Ghaly and chief project manager Andy Bertolo?
-proper scheduling of the project (including a time contingency)
-good vendor management to keep everyone 'on the team' instead of letting the relationships get to the point of 'strained'.
I MIGHT give the fatal accident a free pass... MAYBE.
What boondoggle? The Spadina extension? Please remember that it was Greg Sorbara as a Liberal Cabinet member, right hand man to idiot Dalton that wanted the extension into Vaughn to serve his constituents and forced it on the TTC. So let's put the blame where it belongs, another McGuinty / Wynn fiscal boondoggle. Nothing to do with Rob Ford.Rob Ford is to blame for this boondoggle.
Is there light at the end of the tunnel?
Some Toronto politicians admit they’re part of the problem when it comes to rising costs and missed deadlines.
In the world of construction and engineering, it's referred to as scope creep. To the public, it's just a series of excuses for why another project is late or over-budget.
It starts as a new transit line, a public square, a road or a building. Then the disruption of construction forces the supervising agency to throw in some landscaping and street improvements. Or, crews come across an old sewer pipe that needs replacing and it only makes sense to do it while the street is splayed.
The cost and the delays add up.
The Spadina subway extension is just one of the Toronto region mega-projects suffering budgetary bloat and deadlines best seen through a rearview mirror.
The reason is seldom as simple as mismanagement, said Councillor Joe Mihevc , a TTC board member who compares public projects to home renovations.
“You start knocking down the walls and you find knob-and-tube, you find lead pipes, you find un-insulated walls. What you thought was going to be the project doesn't end up being the project,” he said.
The same applies to public buildings and facilities. Engineers at Union Station learned some footings they thought existed didn’t. Wires are found, with no idea of where they start or end.
“Just the investigation alone takes months of work,” said Mihevc.
Sometimes it just makes sense to add other improvements or fixes as a project is being developed.
But cost overruns are so pervasive the public has lost confidence in government to manage big-money projects properly, said Deputy Mayor Denzil Minnan-Wong, who sits on the TTC board and chaired the public works committee in the previous term of council.
(A Forum Research poll this month showed 48 per cent of respondents, the majority of those with an opinion, agreed that “it is impossible to complete large public construction projects on budget or on schedule in Toronto.”)
Minnan-Wong has been investigating ways to save the city money, looking at best practices in other jurisdictions. The provincial agency Infrastructure Ontario’s alternative financing and procurement model is one avenue Minnan-Wong believes Toronto needs to explore more widely.
Another is job order contracting. Used in the U.S., it applies a pre-determined price for construction materials and work to prevent change orders from inflating project costs.
The responsibility for better management resides in several places, he said:
Politicians need to exercise discipline when it comes to widening the scope of projects. Just because someone's building a subway doesn't mean the local politician should add in another station and then let someone else add in another exit.
Many projects are under-researched and under-budgeted to help get them approved. There needs to be more up-front engineering work.
Contractors are also notorious for under-bidding. They lowball the price knowing there will be changes and that they can charge more for materials, he said.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra.../is-there-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel.html
Some Toronto politicians admit they’re part of the problem when it comes to rising costs and missed deadlines.
In the world of construction and engineering, it's referred to as scope creep. To the public, it's just a series of excuses for why another project is late or over-budget.
It starts as a new transit line, a public square, a road or a building. Then the disruption of construction forces the supervising agency to throw in some landscaping and street improvements. Or, crews come across an old sewer pipe that needs replacing and it only makes sense to do it while the street is splayed.
The cost and the delays add up.
The Spadina subway extension is just one of the Toronto region mega-projects suffering budgetary bloat and deadlines best seen through a rearview mirror.
The reason is seldom as simple as mismanagement, said Councillor Joe Mihevc , a TTC board member who compares public projects to home renovations.
“You start knocking down the walls and you find knob-and-tube, you find lead pipes, you find un-insulated walls. What you thought was going to be the project doesn't end up being the project,” he said.
The same applies to public buildings and facilities. Engineers at Union Station learned some footings they thought existed didn’t. Wires are found, with no idea of where they start or end.
“Just the investigation alone takes months of work,” said Mihevc.
Sometimes it just makes sense to add other improvements or fixes as a project is being developed.
But cost overruns are so pervasive the public has lost confidence in government to manage big-money projects properly, said Deputy Mayor Denzil Minnan-Wong, who sits on the TTC board and chaired the public works committee in the previous term of council.
(A Forum Research poll this month showed 48 per cent of respondents, the majority of those with an opinion, agreed that “it is impossible to complete large public construction projects on budget or on schedule in Toronto.”)
Minnan-Wong has been investigating ways to save the city money, looking at best practices in other jurisdictions. The provincial agency Infrastructure Ontario’s alternative financing and procurement model is one avenue Minnan-Wong believes Toronto needs to explore more widely.
Another is job order contracting. Used in the U.S., it applies a pre-determined price for construction materials and work to prevent change orders from inflating project costs.
The responsibility for better management resides in several places, he said:
Politicians need to exercise discipline when it comes to widening the scope of projects. Just because someone's building a subway doesn't mean the local politician should add in another station and then let someone else add in another exit.
Many projects are under-researched and under-budgeted to help get them approved. There needs to be more up-front engineering work.
Contractors are also notorious for under-bidding. They lowball the price knowing there will be changes and that they can charge more for materials, he said.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra.../is-there-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel.html
