One of the firms cause $400m overrun is hired by John Tory's TTC 4 new Scarb Subway

[boodog]

The TTC is disputing a claim by councillor Josh Matlow, that it has ignored a council order to “aggressively pursue” a private partnership, called a P3, to build the Scarborough subway.

Without a P3 Toronto will be vulnerable to the same kind of cost overruns it faces on the delayed Spadina subway extension, said Matlow.

He was also critical of the TTC board for approving a contract last month for the Scarborough subway with a company that designed the tunnel in the over-budget Spadina project.

“The Scarborough subway is going to keep sucking money out of every capital priority we’ve got,” said Matlow (Ward 22, St. Paul’s), who has repeatedly tried to persuade council to return to a previously planned, provincially funded seven-stop LRT for Scarborough.

The Star reported on Friday that the six-stop Spadina subway extension from Downsview to the Vaughan Metropolitan Centre is about $400 million over its $2.6 billion budget. Neither the TTC nor the city would confirm that number, pending a March 26 report to the TTC board.

But Mayor John Tory called it the latest in a series of taxpayer-funded “fiascos,” at the city.

Premier Kathleen Wynne also chided the TTC for failing to use a provincial style public-private partnership such as the one Metrolinx is using on the Eglinton-Crosstown LRT.

That’s the kind of arrangement that council ordered staff to pursue in October 2013 for the Scarborough subway, said Matlow. But, he said, it didn’t happen.

“I can’t see any evidence that there was due diligence in that direction.

“The TTC has just assumed management from the beginning,” said Matlow.

In the kind of public-private model used by Queen’s Park through its Infrastructure Ontario agency, “it would be the private sector that would assume the overrun,” said Matlow, adding he doesn’t think that there would be an issue attracting private bids on the Scarborough subway project estimated to cost $3.6 billion.

The TTC board in February unanimously approved an $80-million contract for project management, station and tunnel design to a consortium called Scarborough Link. It is a joint venture of Parsons Inc., Hatch Mott MacDonald and MMM Group.

The latter company also worked on the tunnel design, preliminary signal design and power supply and communications systems on the Spadina extension.

Matlow said the contract should never have been approved in February.

“The TTC submitted a report to hire Hatch a month ago, even after Tory says he was briefed on the Spadina overruns. Either Hatch or the TTC or both are responsible,” said Matlow.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...risk-of-spadina-like-overruns-councillor.html

 

[basketcase]

I love how Ford's only 'achievement' of the Scarbs mini-subway is now Tory's.

 

[Butler1000]

I love how Ford's only 'achievement' of the Scarbs mini-subway is now Tory's.

What's really amazing is he has to sink to such depths as to use the leading OPPONENT of the subway in a weak attempt to tar Tory for a negotiation that would have started and almost been completed under Ford.

Not that you can say Ford picked them......he was too busy either getting high or engaging in other abusive practices toward his family, council and the citizens of the city.

 

[boodog]

I love how Ford's only 'achievement' of the Scarbs mini-subway is now Tory's.

Please read the article again.

And think outside the box or basketcase.............

Lie-yer John Tory was briefed on the Spadina overruns month ago. But he then agreed with TTC, in February, to hire Hatch for project management even though he knew the same firm is responsible( or partially responsible) for the Spadina Subway's $400m cost overun (and two years behind schedule).

He then claimed he was furious, last week on media, over the same cost overrun on the Spadina Subway extension and he insisted he would not tolerate these cost overrun "fiasco" any more.

The point the councilor tried to make is $400m is stolen under that firm's watch why Lie-yer John Tory with his TTC is hiring the firm again to manage another (new) project?

Its really has nothing to do with Scarborough Subway being created "achievement" by Rob Ford and/or supported by John Tory.

 

[boodog]

What's really amazing is he has to sink to such depths as to use the leading OPPONENT of the subway in a weak attempt to tar Tory for a negotiation that would have started and almost been completed under Ford.

Not that you can say Ford picked them......he was too busy either getting high or engaging in other abusive practices toward his family, council and the citizens of the city.

You can say that again.

Rob Ford didn't pick them.

David Miller and TTC under his watch picked those firms.

The point of the article is why phony John Tory claims he is furious with that $400m cost overruns when he and his TTC hired one of the major firm that is responsible for the Spadina Subway financial fiasco to manage the new project Scarborough Subway?

Yes the councilor is a known OPPONENT of the Scarborough Subway but he is asking a very legit question, NO?

 

[Butler1000]

You can say that again.

Rob Ford didn't pick them.

David Miller and TTC under his watch picked those firms.

The point of the article is why phony John Tory claims he is furious with that $400m cost overruns when he and his TTC hired one of the major firm that is responsible for the Spadina Subway financial fiasco to manage the new project Scarborough Subway?

Yes the councilor is a known OPPONENT of the Scarborough Subway but he is asking a very legit question, NO?

So if Ford was responsible for the transit file that brought the Scarborough Subway into being why didn't he do due diligence on the companies? Why did he allow the bids and make no comment?

Easy, he has had no hand in it. And neither I might add has Tory up to this point. It's all been under the TTC. All of it.

So your attempt to tar Tory with this is again a failure. And while Fors due to his addictions didn't make the choice, it was still tendered and allowed to move forward under his watch.

Fail again.

 

[boodog]

So if Ford was responsible for the transit file that brought the Scarborough Subway into being why didn't he do due diligence on the companies? Why did he allow the bids and make no comment?

Easy, he has had no hand in it. And neither I might add has Tory up to this point. It's all been under the TTC. All of it.

So your attempt to tar Tory with this is again a failure. And while Fors due to his addictions didn't make the choice, it was still tendered and allowed to move forward under his watch.

Fail again.

Boy o' Boy.

Remembering details really isn't your strength........

Lets wait for the cost overrun reports that TTC promised to release in March sometimes?

 

[MattRoxx]

Ford's cancellation of the Scarboro LRT was and continues to be a complete debacle for everyone.
http://thevarsity.ca/2014/03/17/questions-remain-on-lrt-lines-through-scarborough/

Discussion of the proposed LRT lines began in 2007. The lines were originally intended to improve transit for the Pan Am games in 2015 and significantly reduce commute times for UTSC students. The lines would have encircled the campus and provided easier access to the university.

UTSC students held a campus-wide vote on whether to contribute a portion of the cost of the Olympic-sized pool for the Pan Am Games. Although not a direct LRT vote, students thought that building for Pan Am would allow for the construction of the LRT. This resulted in a commitment from students to contribute $30 million towards the building of the Pan Am/Parapan Am Games facility, which are being built on UTSC property. According to Arale, the main reason for the contribution was to get the two LRT lines to run through campus. Students have held to their commitment and blame Toronto city councillors and administration for not holding up their end of the deal.

The plans for the Scarborough-Malvern LRT line came to an abrupt halt in December 2010 when, on Mayor Rob Ford’s first day in office, he met with the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) and cancelled all light rail projects in favour of underground subways. During these meetings, Ford said: “the war on the car stops today.”

So instead of LRT service that was supposed to be running this summer, Scarborough has....nothing. Nothing today, nothing tomorrow, nothing for at least another 10 years, and debt for all Toronto that will not be paid off in our lifetime.
The war on the car didn't stop (because it doesn't exist), but Ford's idiotic decision escalated the war on taxpayers.

 

[james t kirk]

Hatch is one of Canada's best consulting engineering firms. When it comes to tunnels, they are THEE best.

MMM aka Marshall Macklin Monaghan bought McCormick Rankin a decade or so ago and MR are the finest structural engineering firm in Ontario having designed some of Ontario's and Canada's major civil engineering projects. Think 401.

To blame them for the cost of the Spadina subway extension shows a lack of understanding of how construction projects and engineering projects work, and shows a no mind approach.

Everything is low bid gets the job.

Simple as that.

As a result contractors knowingly underbid the work to get the project.

So they are behind the eight ball the second they mobilize.

Ergo, in order to make money and stay in business, contractors begin claiming extras on day 1 for highly inflated prices. Any change, any change of circumstances, anything whatsoever becomes grounds for a change order.

The only way to defeat this strategy is to have an air tight design and that simply is not possible.

Picking consultants on a low bid gets the job is also not a sound strategy because they are working from the point of view of running over budget and as such will put out a design as quickly as possible in order to get the design out the door and minimise the cost. Since Engineering firms have a lot less potential extra work (some would argue they have none), they can't make up losses like contractors can.

 

[fuji]

Rob Ford is to blame for this boondoggle.

 

[Anbarandy]

I love how Ford's only 'achievement' of the Scarbs mini-subway is now Tory's.

It is, until he disowns and rallies council to just cancel that damn waste of what is now going to be +$3billion.

It is not as difficult a procedure as it sounds, nor is it too late.

All it takes is for Tory to replace his political pandering with common sense.

Is Tory just too frightened of his prospects at the ballot box in 2018 to do what is right?

 

[boodog]

Hatch is one of Canada's best consulting engineering firms. When it comes to tunnels, they are THEE best.

MMM aka Marshall Macklin Monaghan bought McCormick Rankin a decade or so ago and MR are the finest structural engineering firm in Ontario having designed some of Ontario's and Canada's major civil engineering projects. Think 401.

To blame them for the cost of the Spadina subway extension shows a lack of understanding of how construction projects and engineering projects work, and shows a no mind approach.

Everything is low bid gets the job.

Simple as that.

As a result contractors knowingly underbid the work to get the project.

So they are behind the eight ball the second they mobilize.

Ergo, in order to make money and stay in business, contractors begin claiming extras on day 1 for highly inflated prices. Any change, any change of circumstances, anything whatsoever becomes grounds for a change order.

The only way to defeat this strategy is to have an air tight design and that simply is not possible.

Picking consultants on a low bid gets the job is also not a sound strategy because they are working from the point of view of running over budget and as such will put out a design as quickly as possible in order to get the design out the door and minimise the cost. Since Engineering firms have a lot less potential extra work (some would argue they have none), they can't make up losses like contractors can.

Can you be kind enough to explain this simple fact to the political pandering John Tory.

It will be a good education to this rookie mayor.

It may save us from being forced to watch his stupid theatrical act, him being furious and not tolerating any more fiasco, to impress us the ordinary subjects Emperor John Tory himself is the chosen one to be perfect all the time and never makes a mistake.

 

[boodog]

Ford's cancellation of the Scarboro LRT was and continues to be a complete debacle for everyone.
http://thevarsity.ca/2014/03/17/questions-remain-on-lrt-lines-through-scarborough/

So instead of LRT service that was supposed to be running this summer, Scarborough has....nothing. Nothing today, nothing tomorrow, nothing for at least another 10 years, and debt for all Toronto that will not be paid off in our lifetime.
The war on the car didn't stop (because it doesn't exist), but Ford's idiotic decision escalated the war on taxpayers.

Its your prerogative to describe Rob Ford's promotion on Scarborough Subway any way you wish.

But he got a huge followings, leftists to rightists, Liberals to Conservatives, including Kathleen Wynne and John Tory, campaigning on the Subway and ............ WON!!!!!

Taxpayers, aka election voters, aka citizens of Toronto, agreed with those subway-supporting candidates and voted them in for various levels of governments.

Was Rob Ford right to "cancel" Scarboro LRT?

I respect your prerogative and I respect your call though.

 

[james t kirk]

Can you be kind enough to explain this simple fact to the political pandering John Tory.

It will be a good education to this rookie mayor.

It may save us from being forced to watch his stupid theatrical act, him being furious and not tolerating any more fiasco, to impress us the ordinary subjects Emperor John Tory himself is the chosen one to be perfect all the time and never makes a mistake.

I don't know if Tory is just climbing up on his soap box, or he really is that dumb. Either is not good.

The problem with building a subway is (wait for it) - it's underground. As a designer or Engineer, you can't know 100 percent of what you are going to encounter. It's impossible. Subways are even that much more difficult. Who knows if there isn't an ocean of an underground stream under the surface that you didn't count on. You can do all the boreholes you like, until you start actually boring tunnels, you don't know what the fuck you're going to hit.

That said, designers do make mistakes, over sights, errors. They use people who do not have practical knowledge of how things are actually built in the field and just because you can draw it on a piece of paper, doesn't mean you can build it. They need to be held accountable for these mistakes.

But unknown circumstances that cannot be reasonably foreseen by an experienced Engineer? Sorry, I'm not going to crucify a guy for that. Especially if he's a known good Engineer.

As far as Spadina being "over budget" - 400 million on 2.6 Billion is about 15 percent.

That's pretty fucking GOOD in my books. WTF are these politicians bitching about.

400 million seems like an enormous number, but taken in context of 2.6 billion, it's not a lot. Anyone whose ever done a major renovation on their house (like me) knows that 15 % over budget would be a dream come true.

 

[destillat]

400 million seems like an enormous number, but taken in context of 2.6 billion, it's not a lot. Anyone whose ever done a major renovation on their house (like me) knows that 15 % over budget would be a dream come true.

Any project manager worth half his salary knows that a standard contingency in a project budget is about 15 to 20 percent... this fits right in.

 

[basketcase]

Please read the article again.
....

How about reread that title you wrote. Before the election, did you not repeatedly post about how Ford got HIS subway done?

 

[james t kirk]

Any project manager worth half his salary knows that a standard contingency in a project budget is about 15 to 20 percent... this fits right in.

True, but I had assumed that the "budget" included a contingency and that the 400 million over run was on top of that contingency.

Usually in public tenders there is a contingency fund of anything from 5 to 10 percent (which is never enough by the way). This bottom line figure which included the contingency would have been approved as the overall budget for the job.

The Project Managers from the City have now had to go back to council seeking another 400 million (I assume) in order to cover additional "extra" costs.

If however, the 400 million over run does NOT include the contingency, well, then the job is going remarkably well and some Engineer somewhere should be receiving the Order of Canada.

 

[wigglee]

If the mess at Lakeshore and Leslie is a clue, expect major disruptions , cost overruns and delays in any TTC project. A private building project would never be allowed to hamper traffic flow to this extent for this long.

 

[james t kirk]

If the mess at Lakeshore and Leslie is a clue, expect major disruptions , cost overruns and delays in any TTC project. A private building project would never be allowed to hamper traffic flow to this extent for this long.

I'm not too familiar with what's going on at that location as I'm a west end man, but any road work would be being carried out by a private company and not the TTC themselves.

 

[boodog]

True, but I had assumed that the "budget" included a contingency and that the 400 million over run was on top of that contingency.

Usually in public tenders there is a contingency fund of anything from 5 to 10 percent (which is never enough by the way). This bottom line figure which included the contingency would have been approved as the overall budget for the job.

The Project Managers from the City have now had to go back to council seeking another 400 million (I assume) in order to cover additional "extra" costs.

If however, the 400 million over run does NOT include the contingency, well, then the job is going remarkably well and some Engineer somewhere should be receiving the Order of Canada.

It was announced to-day the projected extra, isn't $400m, is $150m in which Toronto is responsible for $90m and York Region for the rest $60m.

The two responsible persons, chief capital officer Sameh Ghaly and chief project manager Andy Bertolo, are not going to receive Order of Canada. They were fired by the John Tory's TTC yesterday.

What's your read on these?