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Not everyone needs a vaccine

Dcoat

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Todays NYT has a follow up article about safety of the unvaccinated vs the vaccinated “Your Unvaccinated Kid Is Like a Vaccinated Grandma.”

Essentially, the very, very low rate of infection for younger people, <30 year olds, makes an unvaccinated younger person better off than a vaccinated older person.



Here's the article:


October 12, 2021​
Good morning. An unvaccinated child is at less risk of serious Covid illness than a vaccinated 70-year-old.​
Elementary-school students in Fresno, Calif., in August.Tomas Ovalle for The New York Times​
A sharp age skew
Emily Oster, an economist at Brown University who frequently writes about parenting, published an article in The Atlantic in March that made a lot of people angry. The headline was, “Your Unvaccinated Kid Is Like a Vaccinated Grandma.” The article argued that Covid-19 tended to be so mild in children that vaccinated parents could feel comfortable going out in the world with their unvaccinated children.​
Critics called the article insensitive and misleading, saying it understated the risks that children could both get sick and spread the virus. Oster responded on her website with a note standing by her main argument but apologizing particularly for the headline’s lack of nuance. Her critics seemed somewhat vindicated.​
Seven months later, with a lot more Covid data available, the debate over the article looks quite different.​
Oster is the one who has largely been vindicated. If anything, subsequent data indicates she did not go far enough in describing the age skew of Covid. Today, an accurate version of her headline might be: “Your Unvaccinated Kid Is Much Safer Than a Vaccinated Grandma.”​
I recognize that may sound hard to believe, so let’s look at some data. Here are hospitalization rates by both age and vaccination status in King County, Wash., which includes Seattle and releases some of the country’s most detailed Covid data:​
Source: Washington Department of Health​
As you can see, the risks for unvaccinated children look similar to the risks for vaccinated people in their 50s.​
Nationwide statistics from England show an even larger age skew. Children under 12 (a group that’s combined with teenagers in this next chart) appear to be at less risk than vaccinated people in their 40s if not 30s.​
Source: UK Health Security Agency​
“Covid is a threat to children. But it’s not an extraordinary threat,” Dr. Alasdair Munro, a pediatric infectious-disease specialist at the University of Southampton, has written. “It’s very ordinary. In general, the risks from being infected are similar to the other respiratory viruses you probably don’t think much about.”​
The threat to the elderly
There is obviously some distressing news in these comparisons. For older people — especially the very old, as well as those with serious health conditions — vaccination does not reduce the risk of Covid hospitalization or death to near zero. That’s different from what the initial vaccine data suggested.​
To be clear, getting vaccinated is still the best thing that an elderly person can do. In terms of risk reduction, a vaccine is more valuable for an older adult than a younger adult. Just compare the size of the bars in the above charts. Still, the Covid risks remain real for vaccinated elderly people.​
David Wallace-Wells has argued in New York Magazine that despite the widespread discussion of Covid’s outsize impact on the old, most people are “hugely underestimating” how large the age skew truly is.​
Different elderly people will respond to the risks in different ways, and that’s OK. Some may decide to be extremely cautious until caseloads fall to low levels. Others — especially those without major health problems — may reasonably choose to travel, see friends and live their lives. The risks are not zero, but they are quite low. And few parts of life pose zero risk.​
As a point of comparison, the annual risk of death for all vaccinated people over 65 in Seattle this year appears to be around 1 in 2,700. The annual average risk that an American dies in a vehicle crash is lower — about 1 in 8,500 — but not a different order of magnitude.​
From a policy perspective, Covid’s threat to older people argues for encouraging them to get Covid booster shots, even if it remains unclear how much vaccine immunity is waning. The threat also argues for more workplace vaccine mandates, to reduce the overall spread of the virus.​
Vaccinate the kids?
The more encouraging half of the story is on the other end of the age spectrum.​
For children without a serious medical condition, the danger of severe Covid is so low as to be difficult to quantify. For children with such a condition, the danger is higher but still lower than many people believe. The risk of long Covid among children — a source of fear among many parents — also appears to be very low.​
All of which raises a thorny question: Should young children be vaccinated? I know some readers will recoil at the mention of that question, but I think it’s a mistake to treat it as unmentionable. There is not the scientific consensus about vaccinating children that there is about adults. It remains unclear how many countries will recommend the vaccine for young children. In the U.S., many vaccinated parents have decided not to vaccinate their eligible children yet.​
The arguments against doing so are that there are some rare side effects and that Covid seems no more worrisome for children than some other respiratory diseases. The arguments in favor are that any troubling side effects seem very rare; that there is uncertainty about the long-term effects of Covid; and that vaccinating children can help protect everybody else, by reducing transmission.​
If I had young children, I would vaccinate them without hesitation. I have heard the same from multiple scientists, including those who understand why many parents are reluctant. (Here’s a Times Q. and A. on the subject.)​
It feels like a close call that leans toward vaccination for an individual child — and an easy decision for the sake of a child’s grandparents and everybody else’s grandparents. “Unvaccinated people at any age are much more likely to cause transmission relative to vaccinated people,” Dr. Aaron Richterman of the University of Pennsylvania told me.​
What does Oster think about all of this? She has taken the high road on social media and in her email newsletter, rather than relitigating the earlier debate. Instead, she devoted a recent newsletter to reviewing the evidence about children and Covid vaccines.​
“I hope we can be prepared to be a little bit gentle with each other,” she wrote. “Asking questions about vaccines for kids or being more cautious for kids than older adults — these are reasonable approaches.”​
At the end, she explained why she would be vaccinating her children once they became eligible: “I do not want them to get Covid. I am worried about their immune-compromised grandparent. I would like to avoid quarantine and keep them in school.”​
 
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jcpro

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Not much of a surprise. All we need to do is to set up rapid testing at schools and daycare centers to keep the spread in check. Alas, that's too difficult for our "experts". It's easier to shut down a school, like they did in Etobicoke, today. Of course this is a NYT, so you have to take their "reporting " with a grain of salt. They, after all, "over reported" child hospitalizations by over 800k.
 
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jalimon

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Not much of a surprise. All we need to do is to set up rapid testing at schools and daycare centers to keep the spread in check. Alas, that's too difficult for our "experts". It's easier to shut down a school, like they did in Etobicoke, today. Of course this is a NYT, so you have to take their "reporting " with a grain of salt. They, after all, "over reported" child hospitalizations by over 800k.
Valuable rapid test only became available in 2021. And are now indeed deployed in school. In Quebec 12 regions are currently getting their test, equipment and training.

When the pandemic hit I really tough we would have do it yourself test kit within a few months. No such thing yet.... Testing proved to be much harder then I anticipated.
 

Valcazar

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Mar 27, 2014
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Valuable rapid test only became available in 2021. And are now indeed deployed in school. In Quebec 12 regions are currently getting their test, equipment and training.

When the pandemic hit I really tough we would have do it yourself test kit within a few months. No such thing yet.... Testing proved to be much harder then I anticipated.
Not focusing on cheap, mostly-accurate testing was a huge mistake, in my view.
You can do a lot with at home testing to break transmission chains.
Of course, testing in stores would be an issue because the people who refuse masks would refuse tests in public. (They might do them at home, though.)
 

jalimon

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Not focusing on cheap, mostly-accurate testing was a huge mistake, in my view.
You can do a lot with at home testing to break transmission chains.
Of course, testing in stores would be an issue because the people who refuse masks would refuse tests in public. (They might do them at home, though.)
They were focusing on that it just proved to be harder to produce...

They came out with some, for now in the US mostly. They are 85% effective. But priced at between 10 and 40$ still quite expensive if you would like to test frequently...

Hope better and cheaper will be available soon.
 

Valcazar

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Mar 27, 2014
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They were focusing on that it just proved to be harder to produce...

They came out with some, for now in the US mostly. They are 85% effective. But priced at between 10 and 40$ still quite expensive if you would like to test frequently...

Hope better and cheaper will be available soon.
You can't have 10/40 dollars a pop. The UK ships them to you for free basically.
They just need to be decently accurate about negative results. You can have wildly common false positives.
The point is not to use them for diagnostics but to use them for "don't go out today and get further testing".
Then most people actually circulating are negative and you follow up on actual cases and contact tracing.

They focused hard on diagnostic accuracy instead, which was a bad idea. Once the first lockdowns and stay at home orders came, cheap testing should have been a major priority.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Not much of a surprise. All we need to do is to set up rapid testing at schools and daycare centers to keep the spread in check. Alas, that's too difficult for our "experts"....
You mean for Ontario's politicians who should have been doing that since last year. Ford hasn't seemed to be willing to spend the money the Feds gave him for covid response.

I can understand parents being hesitant to vaccinate pre-pubescent kids simply because of the unknowns but there is risk for children and no one would want that small rate to be their child. And I see you didn't bother looking into the Israel data on PIMS and serious long-term impacts of covid on children.
 

jcpro

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You mean for Ontario's politicians who should have been doing that since last year. Ford hasn't seemed to be willing to spend the money the Feds gave him for covid response.

I can understand parents being hesitant to vaccinate pre-pubescent kids simply because of the unknowns but there is risk for children and no one would want that small rate to be their child. And I see you didn't bother looking into the Israel data on PIMS and serious long-term impacts of covid on children.
Yeah, and? I have been saying this forever. You cannot treat the fast spreading virus without mass testing the population. That's why lockdowns were idiotic. That's why vaccine only solution will fail as it failed elsewhere. KNOWING who is infected and quarantining them+tracing program would have had spared us from whatever this is we are living through.
 

Rako3

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Talk about data in a vacuum. Yes, those stats show children don't get hospitalized that frequently -- and as long as those children live alone, it's fine.

HOW MANY CHILDREN LIVE ALONE?

Kids are like little petri dishes. You dip them into preschools, into kindergartens, into grade schools, and they catch everything -- and bring it home. Oh good, the odds of the kid being hospitalized aren't that high! But everyone else in the family catches it now too, and their numbers don't look so hot.

Myself, I don't care if someone chooses not to get vaccinated. I also don't care if that person gets hospitalized, gets permanent damage of some sort, or dies. If you want to just ignore the pandemic and go about your life in a Russian Roulette fashion, that's fine -- it's between you and the virus. But if you fall ill, stay home and drink bleach and take Ivermectin and a lot of Vitamin C tablets and don't clog up the health system with avoidable diseases. If you don't believe covid is a big deal, you shouldn't feel the need to go to a hospital.
 

squeezer

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But if you fall ill, stay home and drink bleach and take Ivermectin and a lot of Vitamin C tablets and don't clog up the health system with avoidable diseases. If you don't believe covid is a big deal, you shouldn't feel the need to go to a hospital.
Bingo! Well said!
 

Dcoat

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Kids are like little petri dishes. You dip them into preschools, into kindergartens, into grade schools, and they catch everything -- and bring it home. Oh good, the odds of the kid being hospitalized aren't that high! But everyone else in the family catches it now too, and their numbers don't look so hot.
You got that right, well have right. Kids do catch this virus. However, they don't transmit it. The rate of transmission in schools is extremely low. The cases in schools originate from the community, the home, not from inside the school.

Just thought that minor detail would be helpful.
 

basketcase

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Yeah, and? I have been saying this forever. You cannot treat the fast spreading virus without mass testing the population. That's why lockdowns were idiotic....
Actual lockdowns are very effective like the kind they had in NZ. Our leaders never had the political will to actually lock us down but even then reduced movement did have a significant effect. Like any situation, a multi-pronged approach is more effective than just taking one. Restrictions, vaccination, and the limited testing we've had in Ontario seem to have been reasonably effective.

But I agree about testing. When kids went back last fall, I was expecting/hoping that all schools would have mandatory weekly testing, especially when it was discussed that the province had a big backlog of rapid tests.
 
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basketcase

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You got that right, well have right. Kids do catch this virus. However, they don't transmit it. The rate of transmission in schools is extremely low. The cases in schools originate from the community, the home, not from inside the school.

Just thought that minor detail would be helpful.
At least that's what the Ford government was saying before last spring when they suddenly pivoted and shut down schools saying that schools were a major source of spread. From what I understand, the tracing system was identifying the first tested case as the source in a home and asymptomatic cases in the same home as a secondary infection even though they had no method for determining which case actually occurred first.

Yes asymptomatic people are less likely to spread but it is happening.
 

jcpro

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Rako3

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You got that right, well have right. Kids do catch this virus. However, they don't transmit it. The rate of transmission in schools is extremely low. The cases in schools originate from the community, the home, not from inside the school.

Just thought that minor detail would be helpful.
A quick glance at some respected websites says kids are as transmissive as adults. The CDC, Harvard Medical School, WebMD, Forbes -- if you want to stack that up against somebody's blog on Facebook, you're not going to sway me.
 
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NotADcotor

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A quick glance at some respected websites says kids are as transmissive as adults. The CDC, Harvard Medical School, WebMD, Forbes -- if you want to stack that up against somebody's blog on Facebook, you're not going to sway me.
Yeah but you can't trust those sources, you can however trust some rando on facebook or youtube. They would never post ignorant bullshit or actually flat out lie to you.
He said sarcastically.
 
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