No Fly Zone

[splattsplatt]

Seth Geko in all his wisdom and WITHIN his epistle states:"The US, UK & Canada could make up for easily 60K troops.............."
WTF - let the Arabs sort out their own nastiness and get it right for themselves.

After Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen as well as Afghanistan and Pakistan we know the gratefulness of the Arabs and Muslims as well as their propensity toward betrayal - LET THEM SORT OUT THEIR OWN MESS AND KILL EACH OTHER !

Let's see how they protest the killings of muslims by muslims and see if there is any resemblance to the apoplexy these pious religious hypocrites show when a soldier from the west (USA, Canada, NATO etc.,) kills a muslim collaterally or when an Israeli soldier kills a suicide bomber of jihadi in self defence

After all, why would they want us western christian infidels and jew lovers to come to their rescue after all ?

Ghadaffi is a war criminal but so was Saddam and so are the aytollahs in Iran and so was Assad the elder and so is Nasrallah (see Hariri killing) on it goes with these arabs and muslims - AND NOW THEY WANT OUR SOLDIERS AND OUR PLANES TO PROTECT THEM ????

wtf - wtf - wtf -no way - it is time for the arabs to do their own dirty work and it is time for the west to tell them this

 

[blackrock13]

Seth Geko in all his wisdom and WITHIN his epistle states:"The US, UK & Canada could make up for easily 60K troops.............."
WTF - let the Arabs sort out their own nastiness and get it right for themselves.

After Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen as well as Afghanistan and Pakistan we know the gratefulness of the Arabs and Muslims as well as their propensity toward betrayal - LET THEM SORT OUT THEIR OWN MESS AND KILL EACH OTHER !

Let's see how they protest the killings of muslims by muslims and see if there is any resemblance to the apoplexy these pious religious hypocrites show when a soldier from the west (USA, Canada, NATO etc.,) kills a muslim collaterally or when an Israeli soldier kills a suicide bomber of jihadi in self defence

After all, why would they want us western christian infidels and jew lovers to come to their rescue after all ?

Ghadaffi is a war criminal but so was Saddam and so are the aytollahs in Iran and so was Assad the elder and so is Nasrallah (see Hariri killing) on it goes with these arabs and muslims - AND NOW THEY WANT OUR SOLDIERS AND OUR PLANES TO PROTECT THEM ????



wtf - wtf - wtf -no way - it is time for the arabs to do their own dirty work and it is time for the west to tell them this

So glad you decided to show up and put your two cents in. Geeesh! It's clear there's a little more finesse required than your scenario.

 

[seth gecko]

Seth Geko in all his wisdom and WITHIN his epistle states:"The US, UK & Canada could make up for easily 60K troops.............."
WTF - let the Arabs sort out their own nastiness and get it right for themselves.

After Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen as well as Afghanistan and Pakistan we know the gratefulness of the Arabs and Muslims as well as their propensity toward betrayal - LET THEM SORT OUT THEIR OWN MESS AND KILL EACH OTHER !

Let's see how they protest the killings of muslims by muslims and see if there is any resemblance to the apoplexy these pious religious hypocrites show when a soldier from the west (USA, Canada, NATO etc.,) kills a muslim collaterally or when an Israeli soldier kills a suicide bomber of jihadi in self defence

After all, why would they want us western christian infidels and jew lovers to come to their rescue after all ?

Ghadaffi is a war criminal but so was Saddam and so are the aytollahs in Iran and so was Assad the elder and so is Nasrallah (see Hariri killing) on it goes with these arabs and muslims - AND NOW THEY WANT OUR SOLDIERS AND OUR PLANES TO PROTECT THEM ????

wtf - wtf - wtf -no way - it is time for the arabs to do their own dirty work and it is time for the west to tell them this

Whoa, cool.....I'd now like to be referred to as Saint Seth of Gecko (seeing how I'm writing epistles! Wait, here comes another one now!!)


Theres a theory in psychology called "cultural quotient" (CQ for short, not GQ for you fashionistas) that basically states that understanding cultural factors is essential for success in a given endeavour. In business applications, you may have seen it when a successful company tries to expand into a different country, and fails miserably in that new country. That theory is also put to use within military applications - its been around since before Sun Tzu:

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know only yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle"

How much do we know about Libya....its culture, its attitudes, strengths, its radar & AA sites?? Not very much, thanks to years of isolation & sanctions. Sure, we all know that Khaddafy is a mad-dog lunatic who can't even decide on the correct spelling of his last name, but can we properly gauge the temperment of the Libyan soldier AND civilian, if we stand on Libyan soil? Will they welcome us as liberators, or unite against us as invaders? We really don't know (and while anyones guess on this board is equally valid, by "we" I'm referring to our experts & analysts, who provide info to our decision-makers). Collectively, western CQ regarding Libya is pretty low, exception may be the Eye-talians, who've dealt with them more closely than most western gov'ts over the past few years. Also the Ruskies, who just saw the recent sanctions imposed against Libya put the kibosh on a 2 Billion-ish dollar arms deal signed a few weeks ago.
If its guilt or shame or any emotional reason to argue for getting involved in any way in this Libyan internal affair, I`d suggest looking at more Japanese earthquake-tsumani-Godzilla attack pictures and deciding who you`d rather come to the rescue of. Although I might have the chance to be making some tax-free income if there was some NATO involvement here, I still say it is not something the west (us, Yanks, Brits & the EU) should be getting into. Not now & not for the reason currently before us.

Here end-ith the sermon...........I`ll be passing the collection plate around now so that you all may - hey, where`d everybody go!

 

[Rockslinger]

There aren't enough men, women, weapons, money, etc. in all of Christiandom to solve even 0.00000001% of "their" problems. Let's use our scarce resources where it does the most good and where it is most appreciated like right here in North America where the U.S. is printing billions of dollars to stay afloat. Oh, we should also offer aid to the Japanese victims of the earthquake as well.

 

[dcbogey]

A duty in what sense of duty, To protect a minority being oppressed, stopping the deaths of civilians? Stoppign a religious persecution?

Actually, the nations of the world do have that duty. "Right to Protection". Its a pretty good read.

 

[fuji]

We had/have an opportunity to take out one of the world's rogue cannons, a leader who happily sponsors terrorist attacks, and we've missed it or are missing it.

We didn't need to land soldiers on the ground, an air campaign to take out Gadaffi's air power, tanks, and heavy artillery would have allowed the rebels on the ground to overwhelm his forces.

But we were asleep at the switch.

 

[seth gecko]

Bahrain is looking like its about to get violent, as a repressed Shiite majority continues to expand their month-old demonstrations. Do we intervene here, if the gov't cracks down on them? Conditions would be similar to that in Libya, except with the added complication of inter-faith Islamic rivalry.
Saudi Arabia has used the threat of arrest and threat of violence to keep their protestors in check, but that also has the potential to turn violent very quickly. Both countries are much more strategically important than Libya (or Yemen, which is also gettin' uglier day-by-day), so if you intervene on behalf of the rebels in Libya, wouldn't you be setting yourself up for intervention in these countries also, if gov't forces use deadly force to put down protesters or rebels?
Stay un-involved except for humanitarian and diplomatic efforts............if military intervention becomes an absolute necessity anywhere within the Arab sphere, make sure you've not already committed your assets somewhere relatively un-important (like Libya) if a more important location could be threatened. And for Gods sake (or Allahs, PBUH), be consistent. Support rebels in country #1, then support similar rebellions across the region!!

 

[fuji]

Bahrain is looking like its about to get violent, as a repressed Shiite majority continues to expand their month-old demonstrations. Do we intervene here

The government of Bahrain is not as much of a loose cannon as Gaddafi. Really, we should be LOOKING for excuses to get rid of Gaddafi. And so far, althought he govt. in Bahrain has met protests with force, it has not unleashed the sort of direct assault on civilians that Gaddafi has.

For example I have not heard of any gangs in Bahrain going to the hospitals, dragging injured people out of their beds, and shooting them.

This is not to say that the govt. of Bahrain is respecting people's rights--it most certainly is not--but its not in the same category as Libya, at least not at this point.

And again, from a pragmatic point of view, Gaddafi is the kind of guy the whole world would be better off without.

 

[danmand]

And again, from a pragmatic point of view, Gaddafi is the kind of guy the whole world would be better off without.

Maybe so, but be carefull; If it is based upon popular votes some of the western leaders may be next.

 

[alexmst]

The protesters in Egypt did it the right way - no guns. They stood their ground and faced the tanks unarmed. The troops wouldn't fire on their own people, the government fell. In Libya the protesters armed themselves and tried to stage a coup. Coups that are not swift end up in civil wars. The government side got a lot more popular with many Libyans as soon as the rebels started asking for EU/U.S. military aid to help win.

 

[fuji]

The government side got a lot more popular with many Libyans as soon as the rebels started asking for EU/U.S. military aid to help win.

I'm not sure that's true. I think what happened is that it took the army a little while to kick into gear and start mobilizing, that's why the protesters seemed to have the upper hand at first. It takes a big organization like the military some time to organize itself and start moving.

I haven't seen any sign that the regime is POPULAR... just that it's better armed.

 

[rld]

The protesters in Egypt did it the right way - no guns. They stood their ground and faced the tanks unarmed. The troops wouldn't fire on their own people, the government fell. In Libya the protesters armed themselves and tried to stage a coup. Coups that are not swift end up in civil wars. The government side got a lot more popular with many Libyans as soon as the rebels started asking for EU/U.S. military aid to help win.

I think you are mistaken on the factual chronology as to what happened in this case.

Done properly, the Col could be removed from power for less than a billion. All you need is a neighbouring country willing to stage for you.

 

[onthebottom]

We had/have an opportunity to take out one of the world's rogue cannons, a leader who happily sponsors terrorist attacks, and we've missed it or are missing it.

We didn't need to land soldiers on the ground, an air campaign to take out Gadaffi's air power, tanks, and heavy artillery would have allowed the rebels on the ground to overwhelm his forces.

But we were asleep at the switch.

Who is "we"?

OTB

 

[landscaper]

I think you are mistaken on the factual chronology as to what happened in this case.

Done properly, the Col could be removed from power for less than a billion. All you need is a neighbouring country willing to stage for you.

He could be removed for far less than that, but assasination is illegal...... although what is the difference between starting a war to remove him and paying one of his family members to poison him?

 

[fuji]

Who is "we"?

All of us in the Western world, NATO, the UN SC, etc.

 

[onthebottom]

All of us in the Western world, NATO, the UN SC, etc.

Yeah, but that usually ends up being mostly US resources, I think the US should pass.

OTB

 

[fuji]

Yeah, but that usually ends up being mostly US resources, I think the US should pass.

You'll reap what you sow: Gaddafi will stay, more of a pariah than ever, and no doubt return to sponsoring terrorists and other things that directly challenge US interests. When the next US airline blows up and it turns out a Libyan terrorist was responsible don't say I didn't warn you.

As I said, missed opportunity due to short-signed, myopic thinking.

 

[rld]

He could be removed for far less than that, but assasination is illegal...... although what is the difference between starting a war to remove him and paying one of his family members to poison him?

In today's world a billion is a steal for a military operation.

Does not include post-conflict nation building though.

And yes assassination remains illegal.

 

[onthebottom]

You'll reap what you sow: Gaddafi will stay, more of a pariah than ever, and no doubt return to sponsoring terrorists and other things that directly challenge US interests. When the next US airline blows up and it turns out a Libyan terrorist was responsible don't say I didn't warn you.

As I said, missed opportunity due to short-signed, myopic thinking.

Why didn't Canada act?

OTB

 

[danmand]

Why didn't Canada act?

Fuji is not PM of Canada.