No Fly Zone

[landscaper]

Again with genocide, Fuji which particular , religion or identifiable enthic group is being targeted for complete eradication? Please feel free to identify them.
At present there is a civil war going on in Libya, what right do we have to intervene in a purely internal matter in a sovereign country?

 

[fuji]

Again with genocide, Fuji which particular , religion or identifiable enthic group is being targeted for complete eradication? Please feel free to identify them.

There are indeed identifiable ethnic groups. The rebel side is made up primarily of one set of tribes, from specific cities in Libya, especially Eastern cities, while Gadaffi is supported primarily by a different set of tribes. If Gadaffi were to win, and occupy Benghazi and other places where essentially the entire population opposed him, I believe he would begin wholesale slaughtering all the able bodied men, and perhaps many of the women and children too, for no other reason than their membership in those tribes.

At present there is a civil war going on in Libya, what right do we have to intervene in a purely internal matter in a sovereign country?

Rather, I think it's a duty.

 

[rld]

Again with genocide, Fuji which particular , religion or identifiable enthic group is being targeted for complete eradication? Please feel free to identify them.
At present there is a civil war going on in Libya, what right do we have to intervene in a purely internal matter in a sovereign country?

Let me first state that I am not siding with Fuji. In fact I have him on ignore and thus don't even know what he said.

But the colonel has been using armed force to create trouble in Sudan and as far away as Uganda, where he has supported the LRA.

I think we have plenty of grounds to bring him down. And, since he is using foreign acquired weapons, no reasons the rebels shouldn't as well.

And yes, I would pay a few tens of millions to have EO remove Mugabe too if I had the chance.

 

[danmand]

And yes, I would pay a few tens of millions to have EO remove Mugabe too if I had the chance.

Not a chance. There is no oil in Zim.

 

[landscaper]

There are indeed identifiable ethnic groups. The rebel side is made up primarily of one set of tribes, from specific cities in Libya, especially Eastern cities, while Gadaffi is supported primarily by a different set of tribes. If Gadaffi were to win, and occupy Benghazi and other places where essentially the entire population opposed him, I believe he would begin wholesale slaughtering all the able bodied men, and perhaps many of the women and children too, for no other reason than their membership in those tribes.

gen·o·cide   /ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/ Show Spelled
[jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA

–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Please feel free to post some actual facts as opposed to your beliefs. There is a civil war going on in Libya at present, and to the best of my knowledge there is no ethnic, split in the combatants, Libya is about 97% arab and berber, of various flavours including Tuereg , berber , as well as others. They are entirly mixed on both sides of the conflict which is apparantly based on a wish to remove Gahdaffi as opposed to imposing rule by a specific party. The Muslim brotherhood has a finger in this pie but how much and they are directing things or who the actual leaders of the rebels are is a question that has not been answered as of yet.




Rather, I think it's a duty.

A duty in what sense of duty, To protect a minority being oppressed, stopping the deaths of civilians? Stoppign a religious persecution?

Duty covers a wide variety of things just stating that we have a duty , knowing that you will not be filling a pair of boots ont he ground is disingenuous at best

 

[landscaper]

Let me first state that I am not siding with Fuji. In fact I have him on ignore and thus don't even know what he said.

But the colonel has been using armed force to create trouble in Sudan and as far away as Uganda, where he has supported the LRA.

I think we have plenty of grounds to bring him down. And, since he is using foreign acquired weapons, no reasons the rebels shouldn't as well.

And yes, I would pay a few tens of millions to have EO remove Mugabe too if I had the chance.

You have him on ignore???? but you are missing the entertainment value.. There are a whole pile of leaders in Africa and some parts of asia that deserve to be introduced to graves but again where is the legal precedent for doing so? Without the colour of law we would be no better than the crusaders on a mission from the Pope to relieve the holy lands from the infidel

 

[nottyboi]

Let me first state that I am not siding with Fuji. In fact I have him on ignore and thus don't even know what he said.

But the colonel has been using armed force to create trouble in Sudan and as far away as Uganda, where he has supported the LRA.

I think we have plenty of grounds to bring him down. And, since he is using foreign acquired weapons, no reasons the rebels shouldn't as well.

And yes, I would pay a few tens of millions to have EO remove Mugabe too if I had the chance.

Honestly, I don't feel a huge amount of sympathy for Zimbabwe. They were so quick to embrace a racist, nationalist movement and drive out all the white farmers, now they are reaping what they have sown. Freedom is a bad thing if you are not prepared for it. I am also not 100% sure Libya will be better off without Ghadaffi. Who are these people that want to overthrow him? How legitimate are they? Will Libya be a theocracy? The fact is, regardless of who rules Libya, they will probably hate the west. Will they then start slaughtering Ghadaffi supporters if they win? We have no idea what will happen, so it is best to stay out.

 

[fuji]

A duty in what sense of duty, To protect a minority being oppressed, stopping the deaths of civilians? Stoppign a religious persecution?

To stop the mass murder of civilians.

 

[krak]

Lybia oil reserves are substantial and I think that intervention will make sens if we could establish western controlled regime friendly to western oil intrests. Ghadaffi can be hang later, after gathering proper evidence for some kind of crimes he did.

 

[rld]

You have him on ignore???? but you are missing the entertainment value.. There are a whole pile of leaders in Africa and some parts of asia that deserve to be introduced to graves but again where is the legal precedent for doing so? Without the colour of law we would be no better than the crusaders on a mission from the Pope to relieve the holy lands from the infidel

It's a long story.

If you gave me a night I could find you some legal precedent, without much difficulty at all, or could create one.

Grenada comes to mind right away...

 

[rld]

Honestly, I don't feel a huge amount of sympathy for Zimbabwe. They were so quick to embrace a racist, nationalist movement and drive out all the white farmers, now they are reaping what they have sown. Freedom is a bad thing if you are not prepared for it. I am also not 100% sure Libya will be better off without Ghadaffi. Who are these people that want to overthrow him? How legitimate are they? Will Libya be a theocracy? The fact is, regardless of who rules Libya, they will probably hate the west. Will they then start slaughtering Ghadaffi supporters if they win? We have no idea what will happen, so it is best to stay out.

You clearly don't know much about the history of Zimb now do you?

And what intel do you have, that I don't that allows you to conclude whoever takes over in Libya will be hostile to the west?

Freedom is a big responsibility but allowing a guy who helped fund and arm the LRA to remain in power is a far worse alternative.

 

[landscaper]

It's a long story.

If you gave me a night I could find you some legal precedent, without much difficulty at all, or could create one.

Grenada comes to mind right away...

Grenada in one sense but what about Panama, an invasion to basically arrest a drug dealer who happened to be in power, it is a slope I don't think we want to be on. Specifically with the UN general assembly having a say, what happens if they get into this and set a precident, and then along comes a "mission " that the GA deems as required that we don't agree with, how do we then argue that A is a good thing and B is a bad thing.

 

[landscaper]

To stop the mass murder of civilians.

So would you agree with intervening in Nepal or Tibet to stop the destruction of those societies?

 

[fuji]

Without the colour of law we would be no better than the crusaders on a mission from the Pope to relieve the holy lands from the infidel

I think due to it being the Middle East, and a (former) Arab League member, it's pretty important that this be done collaboratively and by consensus, inclusive of the opinions of states in that area.

First and foremost it should be done as an operation with a mandate from the UN Security Council, and if such a mandate cannot be obtained it should not be done. It may be that the UN Security Council is broken and cannot return appropriate mandates--and that needs fixing, but that does not justify unilateral action against Libya. If an appropriate mandate cannot be obtained that's too bad--but so be it. We should work hard on getting that mandate, and accept it if we cannot get it.

Second even under the UN banner what should be done is the NATO powers should collectively put together a couple of options, "here's what we can do", and then ASK the neighbouring states which option of the approved/realistic options they would prefer.

This is not the time to go barging in saying "Hi America will fix your problems" but it IS the time to say, "Hi we are the collective military capability of the Western world, we are here to help, here are the things we could do for you, what do you want?"

There is a measure of respect in "I am here to help and here is what I can do, what do you think, Arab world?" that I think would be appreciated here, if that's the approach taken and the tone used, whereas any unilateral act is simply going to provoke more anti-American hatred.

 

[rld]

Grenada in one sense but what about Panama, an invasion to basically arrest a drug dealer who happened to be in power, it is a slope I don't think we want to be on. Specifically with the UN general assembly having a say, what happens if they get into this and set a precident, and then along comes a "mission " that the GA deems as required that we don't agree with, how do we then argue that A is a good thing and B is a bad thing.

Well you asked for precedents...I didn't say they were good ones.

And remember, I am not advocating boots on the ground. More like supply and training. And I have lots of precedents for those types of missions...lots and lots...

 

[Rockslinger]

And, since he is using foreign acquired weapons, no reasons the rebels shouldn't as well.

Gaddafi is also using foreign mercanaries.

 

[danmand]

Gaddafi is also using foreign mercanaries.

That would be in the coal mines.

 

[Rockslinger]

Lybia oil reserves are substantial and I think that intervention will make sens if we could establish western controlled regime friendly to western oil intrests.

Who gets Libya's oil? Italy? The PRC seems to get all the oil they need without their planes or troops getting shot at by Middle Easterners.

 

[hinz]

Who gets Libya's oil? Italy?

Well the Italians used to colonize Libya. Could not recall whether that's Il Duce idea or something earlier.

The PRC seems to get all the oil they need without their planes or troops getting shot at by Middle Easterners.

Not going to be surprised the Mandarin Mainland Chinese speakers are quick to stuff each and every Arabs in that neighborhood with worth-less Uncle Sam Bills, with a token of gold or silver coins for each Chinese in that region, waiting to be evacuated.

That being said, it's like history repeats itself, namely the PTR/CEO/SNP of the world are big losers just like their investments in Southern Sudan when there are regime changes. Time will tell whether XOM/CVX/COP/APA of the world seize the opportunities and fill in the vacuums with the MIC.

Not optimistic this time since we have tea baggers trying to take over GOP.

 

[landscaper]

Well the Italians used to colonize Libya. Could not recall whether that's Il Duce idea or something earlier.



Not going to be surprised the Mandarin Mainland Chinese speakers are quick to stuff each and every Arabs in that neighborhood with worth-less Uncle Sam Bills, with a token of gold or silver coins for each Chinese in that region, waiting to be evacuated.

That being said, it's like history repeats itself, namely the PTR/CEO/SNP of the world are big losers just like their investments in Southern Sudan when there are regime changes. Time will tell whether XOM/CVX/COP/APA of the world seize the opportunities and fill in the vacuums with the MIC.

Not optimistic this time since we have tea baggers trying to take over GOP.

It was pre Mussolini, although he tried to really take over.... did not work all that well as I recall, although in the end droping bombs on spear carrying tribes men eventally worked