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NFL to start fining teams when their players kneel for anthem

mandrill

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Quite aside from whether I am a Trump "fan", I am unabashedly an NFL fan. As a long time season ticket holding fan, I don't want to see any protests as part of the event, even if the protest was "pro-Trump". I like my sports without a side of politics. I'm not American, so the "disrespect to the flag" is not what riled me up (although I understand why it could). What irritated me was the idea that I didn't pay (more and more each year) to see somebody grandstand their political views, particularly views I don't agree with. I paid to watch football. If the NFL wants to dress the game up in a wrapper of ceremony, I don't mind, as long the ceremony doesn't irritate me. It's bad enough that political correctness is endangering the existence of NFL cheerleaders (already gone from Buffalo). Don't wreck my entertainment with political idiocy!

And lastly, I expect the NFL to listen to people like me - people who are paying the bills - rather than a bunch of whiners who don't attend games and at most only pay attention to Super Bowl commercials and go to Super Bowl parties only to drink wine and eat canapes and couldn't even tell you the score at any time.

Maybe Kaepernick could start up an all protest league where people could dress up as football players, protest for 60 minutes, and only play football during the anthem? I suspect he wants to hang on to his NFL money enough not to try that!
Geez, that must be a hellishly painful minute or so of torment for you every second Sunday. How the heck do you survive, Mr Season Ticket Holder??!!

If you're going to be peeved for almost a minute every two weeks, then Black deaths have to take second priority, don't they??!! Wouldn't want to upset Mr Season Ticket Holder.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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How is that an intelligent analogy, Phil?

In the cake case, the owner was discriminating against gays. In the NFL protest case, it's a free speech argument. Two different sections of the Constitution with different caselaw.

For instance, I am perfectly at liberty to write a learned article criticizing the legal ruling in the gay cake case. I presume that I could even protest the ruling. But I can't openly dsicriminate against gays by refusing to bake the cake - depending on the USSC ruling. Two different things. Free speech does not = no cake.
It wasnt necessarily an analogy to thread topic, more of a statement in general against PC hypocrisy.

Let me ask you, if I owned a restaurant and some patron walked in wearing a Trump MAGA hat. Lets say I didnt want to serve him because he's a Trump supporter, do you think its right for me to kick the patron out of my restaurant just because he wears a MAGA hat??

Simple question, yes or no??
 

mandrill

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It wasnt necessarily an analogy to thread topic, more of a statement in general against PC hypocrisy.

Let me ask you, if I owned a restaurant and some patron walked in wearing a Trump MAGA hat. Lets say I didnt want to serve him because he's a Trump supporter, do you think its right for me to kick the patyron out of my restaurant just because he wears a MAGA hat??

Simple question, yes or no??
Personally, no. I would serve the guy. It's his own opinion and I would respect that, even though I don't agree with it.

Legally, I could kick him out because political opinion is not a protected category like sexual orientation.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Legally, I could kick him out because political opinion is not a protected category like sexual orientation
Exactly, and thats where the hypocrisy comes in. You cant refuse to serve gays because they're a protected class, but if someone comes in with a MAGA hat courts have ruled a bar owner can kick him out.

See here: https://nypost.com/2018/04/25/judge-bars-are-allowed-to-throw-out-trump-supporters/

FTR I think both the cake store owner and the bar owner are retards, and they should serve anyone who comes in
 

Bud Plug

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I get the feeling that with public events with millions of viewers and celebrity employees, it ain't as simple as the asshole who wears a Hitler t-shirt to his waiter job.
Warning, this post will be longer than 2 sentences!

The best case a player/the union could make here is that the league has issued contradictory instructions to the players. On the one hand, the league encourages players to make public appearances, express their individuality and personality, and the league markets those individual personalities in addition to the game itself. The players could argue that expression of their political views is part of their personalities, and therefore encompassed within their marketing obligations to the league. However, the clarity of the league regarding pre-game behaviour seems to remove any confusion about the when players are to express this aspect of their personalities.

I don't think the NFL would have any difficulty proving the objections of NFL fans to the protests (just look at any team web forum). As a result, they wouldn't have any difficulty under the collective agreement of demonstrating that the rule is reasonably related to their business interests.

So, in the end, the only difference between the Hitler T-shirt guy and NFL kneelers is the degree of offensiveness.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Can you cut and paste the entire article?
Gimme a sec. Just so you know, you can bypass WashPo paywalls by opening the link in "pirvate window" on Firefox, and then quickly hitting the STOP button
 

mandrill

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Warning, this post will be longer than 2 sentences!

The best case a player/the union could make here is that the league has issued contradictory instructions to the players. On the one hand, the league encourages players to make public appearances, express their individuality and personality, and the league markets those individual personalities in addition to the game itself. The players could argue that expression of their political views is part of their personalities, and therefore encompassed within their marketing obligations to the league. However, the clarity of the league regarding pre-game behaviour seems to remove any confusion about the when players are to express this aspect of their personalities.

I don't think the NFL would have any difficulty proving the objections of NFL fans to the protests (just look at any team web forum). As a result, they wouldn't have any difficulty under the collective agreement of demonstrating that the rule is reasonably related to their business interests.

So, in the end, the only difference between the Hitler T-shirt guy and NFL kneelers is the degree of offensiveness.
Decently thought out post. And it looks like I might be wrong on the 1st Amendment issue and stand corrected.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...experts/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0f899abe075e

What the NFL’s new rules for anthem protests really mean for the First Amendment, according to experts

Since it was announced Wednesday, the NFL’s new policy requiring players to stand for the national anthem on the field or wait in the locker room, has done little to quell the debate that has grown into one of the country’s most divisive issues over the past couple of years.

The rules, which stipulate that the league could fine teams for players who don’t follow the guideline on the field, are a concession to some of the league’s owners, fans, and of course, President Trump, who say they believe that players should stand instead of kneeling during the anthem. And it is seen as a rebuke of the many players who made the silent protest of police brutality such a flash point of the league last season.

But it also seems to leave room for players to continue their protest as long as they are off the field, a detail perhaps that will upset some of the most fervent members of the Trump cohort. The president weighed in on Thursday, saying NFL players who do not stand for the national anthem maybe “shouldn’t be in the country.”

Malcolm Jenkins, a Pro-Bowl safety for the Philadelphia Eagles and a vocal advocate for social justice initiatives, harshly criticized the decision along with teammate, Chris Long, saying that he believed it to be an infringement of the players’ rights.

“What NFL owners did today was thwart the players’ constitutional rights to express themselves,” Jenkins said in a statement.

Is Jenkins correct? We talked to constitutional law experts to suss out what protections NFL players — private employees of private companies — have to express political views.

Do NFL players have First Amendment rights on the football field?

The short answer is no. NFL teams are private companies, making the First Amendment a mostly moot point. The players can be subject to discipline or termination as employees if they don’t follow league rules.

“The First Amendment doesn’t apply to private institutions,” Erwin Chemerinsky, the dean of Berkeley Law and a constitutional law expert told The Washington Post. “Private employers can fire employees for their speech without having to worry about the First Amendment.”

Are there any other statutes or laws that the league could violate with its new rules?

The league is bound by more than the constitution, of course, including contractual obligations and agreements made with the NFL Players Association, the players’ union. The NFLPA, which noted that it was not consulted as the league formulated the policy, said that it planned to study the policy and challenge any part found to violate its collective bargaining agreement.

Eugene Volokh, a professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, School of Law who until the end of 2017 anchored an opinion blog for The Washington Post, said that many states have laws that protect the political speech of the employees of private companies that could potentially apply, but said that the legal grounding was untested.

“A considerable amount of states including those that have NFL teams and stadiums do in fact have laws that bar private employers from retaliating against employees because of their political activity,” Volokh said.

The locker room exception included in the league’s new rules — allowing players to opt out of standing for the anthem as long as they are off the field — helps make it a “pretty solid case for the NFL.”

Some of these state statutes would prohibit the employer from compelling political action that the player does not want to engage, among other things. “This avoids that,” Volokh said. “You can imagine other situations where they do require everyone to be on the field to stand and perhaps a court might conclude that violates one of those statutes. But that would vary state by state.”

Volokh said he did not know if any of these laws have been found to apply to speech made at work by private employees and not on their own time.

Are there any constitutional protections against employers’ ability to coerce political speech from their employees, like pledging allegiance to the flag or saluting the president?

Not really.

“Scary as it sounds, nothing in the First Amendment prevents an employer from hiring only Republicans, or from making his employees salute Trump,” NYU law professor and civil liberties expert Burt Neuborne told The Post last year. “The reason they don’t is not because they would be violating the First Amendment, but because First Amendment values are so embedded in our culture that consumers and customers would reject such behavior as un-American.”

Fred Smith Jr., a law professor and constitutional expert at Emory University, described the heated anthem debate as a clash of values, between equality and what others equate as patriotism.

“This is clearly a very fraught issue in the American political imagination,” he said. “Generally speaking, I don’t think people want to see large powerful entities, whether it be Facebook or anyone else, telling us what to think and what to say and how to say it. But the constitution is a protection against government power. And for private entities, like the country itself, it’s a work in progress.”

As part of a barrage of criticism directed at the NFL last year, Trump questioned why the league received some tax breaks given the anthem protests, punctuating the tweet with the exclamation “Change tax law!” Did that change anything legally for the players?

The president is of course entitled to express his views — and he has, many times on the issue of NFL protests — but if his sharp criticism crossed over into threats or bullying of the league and its players about potential government action, that could be a different story, experts say.

“Although the issue isn’t clear cut, I would bet that the Court would view the expression of the President’s views as protected First Amendment speech, as long as he doesn’t back it up with the threat of an exercise of government power,” Neuborne wrote.

Neuborne joined other experts, like Marc Edelman, professor of sports law at Baruch College in New York, in saying at the time that the president’s talking about tax retaliation against the league walked up to — and possibly over — the legal line.

The ACLU, too, said it believed Trump’s tax statements were unconstitutional, which it called an effort “to bully the NFL into complying with his view of what is politically correct.”

“The courts have recognized that when government officials threaten punishment or consequences because of protected speech, that in and of itself can chill the speech, in violation of the First Amendment,” David Cole, the ACLU’s national legal director, told The Post at the time
 

mandrill

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Exactly, and thats where the hypocrisy comes in. You cant refuse to serve gays because they're a protected class, but if someone comes in with a MAGA hat courts have ruled a bar owner can kick him out.

See here: https://nypost.com/2018/04/25/judge-bars-are-allowed-to-throw-out-trump-supporters/

FTR I think both the cake store owner and the bar owner are retards, and they should serve anyone who comes in
But it's not hypocrisy. Everyone has a political opinion. You don't have to be "protected" from discrimination because of your political opinion because they are universal.

OTOH, being gay is a minority and a historically oppressed minority that needs protection from the law and courts. Standard answer that any judge will give you.

If I am dumb enough to walk into a redneck bar in Dallas with an Obama cap, they're not going to serve me either. So political opinion cuts both ways. Gay doesn't.
 

Bud Plug

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Geez, that must be a hellishly painful minute or so of torment for you every second Sunday. How the heck do you survive, Mr Season Ticket Holder??!!

If you're going to be peeved for almost a minute every two weeks, then Black deaths have to take second priority, don't they??!! Wouldn't want to upset Mr Season Ticket Holder.
Let me put into a context you might relate to better. Let's say you were at a SC and you picked out a hot dancer for some private dances. Up you go to the VIP. She then says, before I dance for you, I just want to show you a few pictures of some aborted fetuses and talk to you for a couple of minutes about the evils of abortion. She then proceeds with her presentation.

Would you choose this dancer ever again?

p.s. Kneeling on football fields will not change policing protocols.
p.p.s. Football fans, including myself, are not "in favour" of blacks being shot by police, or anyone else being shot by police, in circumstances where there is neither any danger to the officer nor is the shooting necessary to effect an arrest.
p.p.p.s. The stats that the BLM crowd trot out are garbage. Most of the cops charged in the wake of BLM protests have been acquitted, often by black judges and/or juries.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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OTOH, being gay is a minority and a historically oppressed minority that needs protection from the law and courts. Standard answer that any judge will give you
You are correct, that is the current law in US (and Canada as well I believe). But I think its a hypocritical law, because it divides people into seperate classes, the exact same thing Liberals always rail against because we're all supposed to be equal in society (and under the law).

Why not make it law that a bar owner should serve everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, gender, race, religion....AND....political beliefs??
 

mandrill

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Let me put into a context you might relate to better. Let's say you were at a SC and you picked out a hot dancer for some private dances. Up you go to the VIP. She then says, before I dance for you, I just want to show you a few pictures of some aborted fetuses and talk to you for a couple of minutes about the evils of abortion. She then proceeds with her presentation.

Would you choose this dancer ever again?

p.s. Kneeling on football fields will not change policing protocols.
p.p.s. Football fans, including myself, are not "in favour" of blacks being shot by police, or anyone else being shot by police, in circumstances where there is neither any danger to the officer nor is he shooting necessary to effect an arrest.
p.p.p.s. The stats that the BLM crowd trot out are garbage. Most of the cops charged in the wake of BLM protests have been acquitted, often by black judges and/or juries.
The dancer example is off topic because everyone has the right to choose their social acquaintances.

I agree with you on your BLM points. OTOH, I think people should have the right to protest. If you quell the protest, then you simply enhance the protestors perception that the system is rigged. If the league allowed the protests without all the drama and ranting, the protests would have largely blown over in a few weeks. Then the NFL could have won a PR coup by funding some sort of study group. The study group could have made recommendations, involved players, etc. Largely feelgood. In a league where 80% of the players are Black, the NFL would have won their hearts and minds.

The Black killings that I have followed closely have all produced acquittals of the White cop that are clearly reasonable acquittals. OTOH, I do think that justice and policing in the US are racialized. What BLM misses is that it's a lot easier for a white cop to target a Black man by issuing him a traffic ticket each time he drives past, or doing repeated stop and frisks than by shooting him. Cops rarely shoot anyone and it's a big deal which involves considerable scrutiny. So even the most racist cop will avoid such an extreme act.

The issue with BLM is that they have a mass constituency which is even less sophisticated than redneck whites. It is difficult to rally that mass with anything but an extreme act. And if you yell "murder", you get a big reaction. And of course, some of the BLM leaders - if not most - are in it to enhance their own standing and prosperity. Just like whites.

So you get a volatile movement which triggers occasional extreme participation by an unsophisticated public and not always on well founded grounds.
 

mandrill

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You are correct, that is the current law in US (and Canada as well I believe). But I think its a hypocritical law, because it divides people into seperate classes, the exact same thing Liberals always rail against because we're all supposed to be equal in society (and under the law).

Why not make it law that a bar owner should serve everyone, regardless of sexual orientation, gender, race, religion....AND....political beliefs??
There's a constitutional law 101 course that you should take and I don't have the time or patience.
 

LT56

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Exactly, and thats where the hypocrisy comes in. You cant refuse to serve gays because they're a protected class, but if someone comes in with a MAGA hat courts have ruled a bar owner can kick him out.

See here: https://nypost.com/2018/04/25/judge-bars-are-allowed-to-throw-out-trump-supporters/

FTR I think both the cake store owner and the bar owner are retards, and they should serve anyone who comes in
Apples and oranges. Trump supporters are not an historically oppressed group. They are just racist losers...and being a racist loser is not a protected category.
 

Bud Plug

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The dancer example is off topic because everyone has the right to choose their social acquaintances.

I agree with you on your BLM points. OTOH, I think people should have the right to protest. If you quell the protest, then you simply enhance the protestors perception that the system is rigged. If the league allowed the protests without all the drama and ranting, the protests would have largely blown over in a few weeks. Then the NFL could have won a PR coup by funding some sort of study group. The study group could have made recommendations, involved players, etc. Largely feelgood. In a league where 80% of the players are Black, the NFL would have won their hearts and minds.

The Black killings that I have followed closely have all produced acquittals of the White cop that are clearly reasonable acquittals. OTOH, I do think that justice and policing in the US are racialized. What BLM misses is that it's a lot easier for a white cop to target a Black man by issuing him a traffic ticket each time he drives past, or doing repeated stop and frisks than by shooting him. Cops rarely shoot anyone and it's a big deal which involves considerable scrutiny. So even the most racist cop will avoid such an extreme act.
What an enjoyable day! It turns out there are many things we can agree on!

I also strongly support the right of BLM activists, and many other activists, to peacefully protest/counter protest, despite the fact that I don't agree with facts or opinions they assert. I also agree that there are certainly at least some cops who are racists and who need to be dealt with.

I would have no problem as an NFL fan if the players wanted to conduct press conferences to address their views on racialized policing. However, they would be well advised to be represented by the most articulate players on the subject, rather than just who happened to make a great play this week. On the Bills, that person is Lorenzo Alexander. However, he doesn't get much air time compared to LeSean McCoy (who is a great player and a moron).
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Apples and oranges. Trump supporters are not an historically oppressed group. They are just racist losers...and being a racist loser is not a protected category
We think you lot are losers too, constantly crying about hate-crimes all the while hating on Trump supporters yourself
 

Phil C. McNasty

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There's a constitutional law 101 course that you should take and I don't have the time or patience
Well, if anyone needed schooling on US constitutional law in this thread, it was you
 

HungSowel

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Stop putting the national anthem in sports, that solves the problem. If it is one country vs another then sure; play the national anthems of both teams as it adds to the perceived rivalry.

The NFL wants to use the drape of nationalism to sell sports, that is a risk they take. When that risk backfires, they blame the players and not themselves (NFL).
 
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