Need some guidance

mohit92004

Member
Mar 29, 2024
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Helloo All,
I am a complete beginner in this investing as i am 22 years old and in the upcoming months i am planning to invest $2000 every month into stock market.

So if you were my age what would you do ? Would you buy ETF or individual stocks ?

i made my first investment yesterday only i invested $1000 in VDY. I bought this as dividend paying ETF would help me to create a passive income.
 

Ponderling

Lotsa things to think about
Jul 19, 2021
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Open a TFSA account. Fill it to 7k, broad based index etf every year
After that maybe do RRSP
or maybe first home saving account, which can be rolled to RRSP down the road without having to commit to a house, or have RRSP contribution room down the line.

Resist the lure of individual stocks until you have say 50K of index ETF's.
Not a sexy way to invest
But keep with regular contributions though the years and you will be miles ahead of all the bros with hot tips on latest stock leads.
 
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HungSowel

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Mar 3, 2017
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Ponderling gives good advice. I would prioritize RRSP and first home savings account. I think you should have 3-4 years worth of TFSA room, 20k-28k of room, contribute to that next.

You are way ahead of the curve by investing so early in a solid ETF and not falling for Bitcoin and meme stocks. You have alot of time to figure things out and optimize your investments for taxes/returns.
 

angrymime666

Well-known member
May 8, 2008
1,220
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2k per month is a wonderful way to start out. Since you are 22 you can do a couple moves depending on your tax situation. If you are making high five figures and higher it would make tax sense to contribute to an rrsp to lower your marginal tax rate thus paying less taxes and saving more money. If you are around 60k you are almost at the lowest rate so dump it in the tfsa. If you are thinking about buying a house down the road, the home buyers savings plan since it would give you nice credits and lower your marginal tax rate.

I'm a big fan of dividends and dripping so you dollar cost average your repurchases.

I'm not a etf kind of guy but since you are new its probably easiest to buy etfs with a low mer. Depending on the content of the etf it maybe better suited in one shelter than another based on tax treaties.

I like this website as a resource for investing. Canadianmoneyforum.com.
 
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HungSowel

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So far this year, VDY has appreciated ~22% with a ~1.7% (pro rated for the year) dividend. My TFSA is all VDY. My RRSP and non registered investment accounts have turned to sh*t due to geopolitical and the US Fed.

Last year VDY returned 30%, maybe by the end of this year it will return ~40%. Those are ponzi scheme level returns from a relatively safe and somewhat diversified ETF.
 

Ponderling

Lotsa things to think about
Jul 19, 2021
2,096
1,835
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Mississauga
So far this year, VDY has appreciated ~22% with a ~1.7% (pro rated for the year) dividend. My TFSA is all VDY. My RRSP and non registered investment accounts have turned to sh*t due to geopolitical and the US Fed.

Last year VDY returned 30%, maybe by the end of this year it will return ~40%. Those are ponzi scheme level returns from a relatively safe and somewhat diversified ETF.
Dont count on these big returns for long term going forward.
Project more conservatively, like average annual return over 10 years of 6-8% for equity investments when you do your planning.
And you may not be too far off the long term trend likely for the coming decade after a few real gang buster recent years of returns.

I have lived through markets going sideways at plus to minus half a percent for a few years as well.
As well as periods of outright loss of more than 5%.
They arent too much fun.
But those are the kind of years sticking to the investing plans reallly can pay off once returns pick up a bit more again.
 
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jeff2

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Sep 11, 2004
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Good for you. Some good advice listed above. I have VDY also. I should of bought some more.
At your stage, the best thing would be for the market to go down. Painful as that may be for us fossils on the board.
 
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niniveh

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Jun 8, 2009
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Look up "irrational exuberance" ( he died this week at 100) and decide for yourself if this is the time to put any new money into stocks, ETFs etc. They'll tell you that you cannot time the market and that's a valid adage. But preservation of capital trumps that one. It is commendable that at 22 you have a plan of saving/investing. Keep doing that, but be cognizant of market cycles and hyper-valuation. Above all be patient. You have decades ahead of you. All the best.
 
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oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
So if you were my age what would you do ? Would you buy ETF or individual stocks ?
If I were your age I would try to convince myself perpetual growth of the
economy was to continue into the coming decades first. Only if I managed
to ssure myself major stock market indexes would have nowhere to go but
up in the long term would I invest my money into ETFs.
 

ez$$$

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Apr 15, 2022
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Good for you for establishing an investment strategy at a young age.

Good advice here and the adage of time in market beats timing the market rings true.

Beyond investment strategy, I would just say be disciplined about saving/expenses so you do not have to withdraw from your investments. Allowing your investments to compound for a solid 25 years plus requires serious discipline but is worth it over the long-term.

Congrats and all the best.
 

Caspertheghost

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Jan 27, 2005
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Etfs to start. Diversify into 5-6 different sectors/caps. Monthly regular contributions. Dont look at the every day. So this for 20 years. You will be shocked at the growth. Then for 10-15 years you can add other investments including individual stocks. Perhaps get occasional advice on allocations across registered and unregistered accounts no. Watch for dips in you late 50s and 60s in dividend payers and start loading up on those in unregistered account - reinvest all dividends. When you retire, then take a look at assets and allocate them in tax effixient manner (you may need advice for this).

You will be golden and probably have significant income from dividends, plus capital to sell slowly as you age.

Then visit and enjoy young hot SPs and MPAs to your hearts content!
 
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Would you buy ETF or individual stocks ?
In the US, investors should buy mutual funds with long-term records of management teams that generate alpha relative to beta. Alpha is the excess return relative to what would be expected given its Beta, which is the relative risk. An ideal is high Alpha with low Beta. There are other things to consider.

In Canada, fund expenses are higher than in the US because funds must register and pay fees in each province, whereas in the US, they are subject only to national requirements from the SEC and FINRA.

I would never invest in an ETF, since you don't own the underlying stocks. ETFs are very complex and not understood by most retail investors.

Market makers and authorized participants make huge profits on trades that investors do not see. The Bid/Ask spread may represent an overvaluation relative to the actual spread of the stocks it participates in, but does not own. In the US, the 2010 "flash crash" showed how a lack of liquidity led to some ETFs' bids being set at $0.01, with ETF sellers eventually being rescued by the SEC/FINRA, which eventually blocked trades.

The Extreme ETF Drop: Because automated liquidity providers (market makers) withdrew or posted nominal "stub quotes" (bidding as low as 0.01), many ETFs plummeted to absurdly low values. About 70% of all securities with trades canceled by the SEC were ETFs.

In a typical market crash, ETFs can be more negatively affected by liquidity constraints than the underlying stocks they track. Retail investors are more likely to panic and sell during a major market decline, as they did in the 2010 flash crash, than institutional investors such as mutual funds.

The 2010 Flash Crash - ETF "Reset": Regulators from the SEC and major exchanges stepped in after the crash and canceled trades in ETFs that deviated by more than 10% from their transaction prices prior to the erroneous plunge. Consequently, the true "market reset" decline that stuck for the SPY [S&P500] ETF at its absolute worst trading moment was approximately 18% to 20% off its pre-drop value.

The Huge Profits in ETFs/Costs to Investors

Authorized Participants hold a legal contract with the ETF issuer. They are the only entities that can create or redeem ETF shares directly with the fund in large blocks (usually 25,000 to 50,000 shares) known as "creation units." Market Makers are liquidity providers on the stock exchange. They constantly quote buy (bid) and sell (ask) prices so that everyday investors can trade ETF shares instantly.

Market Makers profit directly from the bid-ask spread. This is their primary source of income. They buy ETF shares from investors at the lower bid price and sell them to other investors at the higher ask price, pocketing the tiny difference millions of times a day.

Authorized Participants profit from arbitrage; they profit when the ETF share price drifts away from the value of its underlying stocks. If the ETF becomes overpriced, the AP buys the cheaper underlying stocks, exchanges them with the issuer for new ETF shares, sells those shares for a premium, and pockets the difference.

For Nerds like me, details of the May 10, 2010, "flash crash" when many ETFs went to $0.01 Bid

I was watching the May 6, 2010, market crisis live on CNBC Market Watch. The anchors were perplexed as to why they were not getting quotes or why they were getting quotes at $0.01 in their market reports. "What happened?" was their confused response as millions wondered. Power failure? Enemy attack on the system?

From the SEC 104 page report "May 6, 2010 Market Event Findings," I have highlighted below the most meaningful parts of the SEC's very long technical analysis, especially regarding ETFs.

In our Preliminary Report, we noted that many of the securities experiencing the most severe price dislocations on May 6 [2010] were equity-based ETFs. A large majority of ETF market makers paused their market-making for extended periods starting at about 2:45 p.m. on May 6. We believe this is one of the reasons equity-based ETFs were disproportionately affected by the extreme price volatilities of that afternoon.

Anecdotally, market makers in ETFs reported that ETFs trade differently from individual securities, often resulting in more concentrated liquidity on exchange order books. Specifically, they considered ETFs a “professional’s market,” where the depth of the book is more limited than for individual stocks, and there are few, if any, resting retail orders far from the mid-quote. Sell pressure that overwhelms immediately available near-inside liquidity is less likely to be “caught” by resting orders farther from the mid-quote in an ETF.

Some equity exchanges automatically generate stub quotes, and a subset requires their market makers to use such a mechanism to ensure compliance with continuous two-sided quoting rules. Some allow for flexibility in specifying how auto-generated quotes cascade upwards or downwards as market prices move, though floors of 1 penny or 1/100th of a penny on the bid side.

One reason that auto-generated quotes are implemented is to ensure market makers can “technically” meet their continuous two-sided quoting obligations even if they have temporarily disconnected from the exchange. A trade priced at $0.01 may have been the result of an exchange-generated stub quote or an active market maker quoting at that same level.

Others reported that they sent orders seeking to hit stub quotes to prevent the piling up of orders in their internal systems.

Though the type of volatility experienced that day is very unusual, even more extraordinary was the fact that over 20,000 trades representing 5.5 million shares were executed at prices more than 60% away from their 2:40 p.m. value. These trades were subsequently broken by the exchanges and FINRA under their clearly erroneous rules because they were executed at clearly unrealistic prices under severe market conditions. Almost two-thirds of shares in canceled trades were executed at prices below $1.00.

On May 6, both market and limit orders were executed against stub quotes. Many trades that originated with retail customers as stop-loss or market orders were converted to limit orders by internalizers before being routed to the exchanges for execution. If that limit order could not be filled because the market continued to fall, then the internalizer set a new lower limit price and resubmitted the order, following the price down and eventually reaching unrealistically low bids. Given that internalizers generally process and route retail trading interest, this suggests that at least half of all broken trade share volume was due to retail customer sell orders. [Retail smaller investor orders vs typically large institutional trades.]

The data also provides important information on the extent to which declarations of self-help by Nasdaq and BATS against NYSE Arca may have exacerbated the issues on May 6. For example, a large [$4.1 billion sell order] by a market maker specialized in ETFs on NYSE Arca. The internalizer had routed approximately 2,400 sell orders to NYSE Arca for about 1.7 million shares.

The next section will discuss NYSE Arca, which "is a fully electronic securities exchange owned by the Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) that specializes in the listing and trading of Exchange-Traded Products (ETPs), including ETFs and ETNs. It holds the largest market share for ETF trading volume globally." Source NYSE]

Nasdaq declared self-help against NYSE Arca at 2:35:59 p.m., and Nasdaq OMX BX declared self-help against NYSE Arca at 2:38:40 p.m. The Nasdaq declaration was revoked at 3:01:09 p.m., and the Nasdaq OMX BX exception was revoked at 3:01:55 p.m. Data indicate that for a subset of securities, NYSE Arca repeatedly did not respond to orders from these exchanges within one second. Consistent with Rule 611, Nasdaq and Nasdaq OMX BX notified NYSE Arca directly concerning their use of the self-help exception. They also publicly disclosed their Self-Help Declarations on their website. As a result, many market participants were aware of the Self-Help Declarations soon after they were made.

[The "self-help" rule:] “trading centers should be entitled to bypass another trading center’s quotations if it repeatedly fails to respond within one second to incoming orders attempting to access its protected quotations,...the declarer of self-help must adopt objective parameters for use of the exception, must immediately notify the exchange that is the subject of the self-help declaration." [The report notes that in normal times, trades and quotes are typically aggregated from various systems in generally less than 10 milliseconds.]

The fact that a single market maker [ETF] on NYSE Arca accounted for so many broken trades suggests that it was one of the last providers of liquidity for those securities in that market. Other market makers had either stopped quoting or were quoting at even lower prices, demonstrating the extent to which liquidity had virtually evaporated.

We obtained order audit trail files from several sources, including NYSE, NYSE Amex, NYSE Arca, Nasdaq and BATS, each containing detailed data on orders received, modified, canceled, and executed. In total, this data contained 5.3 billion records.

On September 10, 2010, the SEC approved new rules submitted by the national exchanges and FINRA that clarify the process for breaking erroneous trades.
 

jeff2

Well-known member
Sep 11, 2004
2,303
1,342
113
In the US, investors should buy mutual funds with long-term records of management teams that generate alpha relative to beta. Alpha is the excess return relative to what would be expected given its Beta, which is the relative risk. An ideal is high Alpha with low Beta. There are other things to consider.

In Canada, fund expenses are higher than in the US because funds must register and pay fees in each province, whereas in the US, they are subject only to national requirements from the SEC and FINRA.

I would never invest in an ETF, since you don't own the underlying stocks. ETFs are very complex and not understood by most retail investors.

Market makers and authorized participants make huge profits on trades that investors do not see. The Bid/Ask spread may represent an overvaluation relative to the actual spread of the stocks it participates in, but does not own. In the US, the 2010 "flash crash" showed how a lack of liquidity led to some ETFs' bids being set at $0.01, with ETF sellers eventually being rescued by the SEC/FINRA, which eventually blocked trades.

The Extreme ETF Drop: Because automated liquidity providers (market makers) withdrew or posted nominal "stub quotes" (bidding as low as 0.01), many ETFs plummeted to absurdly low values. About 70% of all securities with trades canceled by the SEC were ETFs.

In a typical market crash, ETFs can be more negatively affected by liquidity constraints than the underlying stocks they track. Retail investors are more likely to panic and sell during a major market decline, as they did in the 2010 flash crash, than institutional investors such as mutual funds.

The 2010 Flash Crash - ETF "Reset": Regulators from the SEC and major exchanges stepped in after the crash and canceled trades in ETFs that deviated by more than 10% from their transaction prices prior to the erroneous plunge. Consequently, the true "market reset" decline that stuck for the SPY [S&P500] ETF at its absolute worst trading moment was approximately 18% to 20% off its pre-drop value.

The Huge Profits in ETFs/Costs to Investors

Authorized Participants hold a legal contract with the ETF issuer. They are the only entities that can create or redeem ETF shares directly with the fund in large blocks (usually 25,000 to 50,000 shares) known as "creation units." Market Makers are liquidity providers on the stock exchange. They constantly quote buy (bid) and sell (ask) prices so that everyday investors can trade ETF shares instantly.

Market Makers profit directly from the bid-ask spread. This is their primary source of income. They buy ETF shares from investors at the lower bid price and sell them to other investors at the higher ask price, pocketing the tiny difference millions of times a day.

Authorized Participants profit from arbitrage; they profit when the ETF share price drifts away from the value of its underlying stocks. If the ETF becomes overpriced, the AP buys the cheaper underlying stocks, exchanges them with the issuer for new ETF shares, sells those shares for a premium, and pockets the difference.

For Nerds like me, details of the May 10, 2010, "flash crash" when many ETFs went to $0.01 Bid

I was watching the May 6, 2010, market crisis live on CNBC Market Watch. The anchors were perplexed as to why they were not getting quotes or why they were getting quotes at $0.01 in their market reports. "What happened?" was their confused response as millions wondered. Power failure? Enemy attack on the system?

From the SEC 104 page report "May 6, 2010 Market Event Findings," I have highlighted below the most meaningful parts of the SEC's very long technical analysis, especially regarding ETFs.

In our Preliminary Report, we noted that many of the securities experiencing the most severe price dislocations on May 6 [2010] were equity-based ETFs. A large majority of ETF market makers paused their market-making for extended periods starting at about 2:45 p.m. on May 6. We believe this is one of the reasons equity-based ETFs were disproportionately affected by the extreme price volatilities of that afternoon.

Anecdotally, market makers in ETFs reported that ETFs trade differently from individual securities, often resulting in more concentrated liquidity on exchange order books. Specifically, they considered ETFs a “professional’s market,” where the depth of the book is more limited than for individual stocks, and there are few, if any, resting retail orders far from the mid-quote. Sell pressure that overwhelms immediately available near-inside liquidity is less likely to be “caught” by resting orders farther from the mid-quote in an ETF.

Some equity exchanges automatically generate stub quotes, and a subset requires their market makers to use such a mechanism to ensure compliance with continuous two-sided quoting rules. Some allow for flexibility in specifying how auto-generated quotes cascade upwards or downwards as market prices move, though floors of 1 penny or 1/100th of a penny on the bid side.

One reason that auto-generated quotes are implemented is to ensure market makers can “technically” meet their continuous two-sided quoting obligations even if they have temporarily disconnected from the exchange. A trade priced at $0.01 may have been the result of an exchange-generated stub quote or an active market maker quoting at that same level.

Others reported that they sent orders seeking to hit stub quotes to prevent the piling up of orders in their internal systems.

Though the type of volatility experienced that day is very unusual, even more extraordinary was the fact that over 20,000 trades representing 5.5 million shares were executed at prices more than 60% away from their 2:40 p.m. value. These trades were subsequently broken by the exchanges and FINRA under their clearly erroneous rules because they were executed at clearly unrealistic prices under severe market conditions. Almost two-thirds of shares in canceled trades were executed at prices below $1.00.

On May 6, both market and limit orders were executed against stub quotes. Many trades that originated with retail customers as stop-loss or market orders were converted to limit orders by internalizers before being routed to the exchanges for execution. If that limit order could not be filled because the market continued to fall, then the internalizer set a new lower limit price and resubmitted the order, following the price down and eventually reaching unrealistically low bids. Given that internalizers generally process and route retail trading interest, this suggests that at least half of all broken trade share volume was due to retail customer sell orders. [Retail smaller investor orders vs typically large institutional trades.]

The data also provides important information on the extent to which declarations of self-help by Nasdaq and BATS against NYSE Arca may have exacerbated the issues on May 6. For example, a large [$4.1 billion sell order] by a market maker specialized in ETFs on NYSE Arca. The internalizer had routed approximately 2,400 sell orders to NYSE Arca for about 1.7 million shares.

The next section will discuss NYSE Arca, which "is a fully electronic securities exchange owned by the Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) that specializes in the listing and trading of Exchange-Traded Products (ETPs), including ETFs and ETNs. It holds the largest market share for ETF trading volume globally." Source NYSE]

Nasdaq declared self-help against NYSE Arca at 2:35:59 p.m., and Nasdaq OMX BX declared self-help against NYSE Arca at 2:38:40 p.m. The Nasdaq declaration was revoked at 3:01:09 p.m., and the Nasdaq OMX BX exception was revoked at 3:01:55 p.m. Data indicate that for a subset of securities, NYSE Arca repeatedly did not respond to orders from these exchanges within one second. Consistent with Rule 611, Nasdaq and Nasdaq OMX BX notified NYSE Arca directly concerning their use of the self-help exception. They also publicly disclosed their Self-Help Declarations on their website. As a result, many market participants were aware of the Self-Help Declarations soon after they were made.

[The "self-help" rule:] “trading centers should be entitled to bypass another trading center’s quotations if it repeatedly fails to respond within one second to incoming orders attempting to access its protected quotations,...the declarer of self-help must adopt objective parameters for use of the exception, must immediately notify the exchange that is the subject of the self-help declaration." [The report notes that in normal times, trades and quotes are typically aggregated from various systems in generally less than 10 milliseconds.]

The fact that a single market maker [ETF] on NYSE Arca accounted for so many broken trades suggests that it was one of the last providers of liquidity for those securities in that market. Other market makers had either stopped quoting or were quoting at even lower prices, demonstrating the extent to which liquidity had virtually evaporated.

We obtained order audit trail files from several sources, including NYSE, NYSE Amex, NYSE Arca, Nasdaq and BATS, each containing detailed data on orders received, modified, canceled, and executed. In total, this data contained 5.3 billion records.

On September 10, 2010, the SEC approved new rules submitted by the national exchanges and FINRA that clarify the process for breaking erroneous trades.
One problem in Canada was until a few years ago, discount brokers kept the trailor fee for mutual funds. You could not buy the lower fee fund(such as series F) if it was available. This often added an extra 1% to the MER. Finally the law was changed to stop this as discount brokers cannot provide advice. FID627(series F) compared to FID227(series B) below. FID227 is a much older version.

1782925335078.png

1782925446631.png
 
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HungSowel

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Mar 3, 2017
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In a non-registered account, you want investments that you can hold forever. Non-registered accounts do not have a tax shield, so to create your own tax shield, you want to delay paying taxes on gains as long as possible, so you want things that you can hold forever. ETFs generally are less risky than individual stocks so you can hold ETFs much longer.

It is worth saying that the best investment is into yourself or your own business. You have a much much better understanding and control of yourself and your own business than you will with any stock.

If you read the taxation tea leaves, Canada incentivises capital gains and business income. Salary and interest income are taxed as if they are sins.
 

xmontrealer

(he/him/it)
May 23, 2005
12,836
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In a non-registered account, you want investments that you can hold forever. Non-registered accounts do not have a tax shield, so to create your own tax shield, you want to delay paying taxes on gains as long as possible, so you want things that you can hold forever. ETFs generally are less risky than individual stocks so you can hold ETFs much longer.

It is worth saying that the best investment is into yourself or your own business. You have a much much better understanding and control of yourself and your own business than you will with any stock.

If you read the taxation tea leaves, Canada incentivises capital gains and business income. Salary and interest income are taxed as if they are sins.
Possibly so, but that certainly emphasizes the risks of "putting all your eggs in one basket..."

What happens if your business fails, or AI replaces your skill set? Especially if you have reached the age where finding other employment is difficult.
 

HungSowel

Well-known member
Mar 3, 2017
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Possibly so, but that certainly emphasizes the risks of "putting all your eggs in one basket..."

What happens if your business fails, or AI replaces your skill set? Especially if you have reached the age where finding other employment is difficult.
I am not advising putting your eggs in one basket, it is quite the opposite.

With the money he earns, he should put as much as possible into index funds.

He should invest some of his time, energy, and small amounts of money into starting a business or upgrading their skillset. Do not give so much to your employer that it saps all your time and energy.
 
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Big Rig

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May 6, 2009
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you can fill out your TFSA and RRSP for the years you have missed do this first

Google MY ACCOUNT and open account with CRA they will tell you how much $ you can put in
 

Big Rig

Well-known member
May 6, 2009
2,358
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Open online banking account with your bank and a trading account for buying and selling stocks but never buy individual stock, instead buy them all with an ETF.
Yes, the ETF will have losers but they also have the winners.

Mutual funds will say you are throwing darts but they are the ones throwing the darts

Instead of spending money pay yourself first by saving

Most people do the opposite they spend then save what is left

You can now sit back and watch your money make money. Free money. How cool is that?

But do not panic when markets drop just buy and hold

Never buy a mutual fund, ever


Check out my thread on fiduciaries


Need to find a quality fiduciary | Toronto Escorts Review Board Forum | Terb
 
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killuanon

Take a Shot
Jan 17, 2025
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1. diversify
2. state your risk tolerance (you’re young and it seems to have extra cash, take risks)
3. be consistent
4. state your goals (don’t invest just cause everyone said so, make sure you have goals, timelines, and exit strategy e.i. new car/house/etc.)
 
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