My TTC Subway Plans

[Fork Master]

http://www.beerhockeysex.com/index.php?Category=Social&Article=20041019.My_TTC_Subway_Plans.html

I thought it'd be fun to draw up some Toronto subway plans using the windows Paint program.

Comments are welcome, Criticism is too, I guess

 

[TheNiteHwk]

Your dreaming...

I agree with some if not most of your ideas but it's really just a dream if you think any of this will ever happen. We can't even get our potholes fixed every spring. How are we going to build $Multi-Million$ subways? They are not even maintaining the current system up to standard.

Having said I think they should have built a line under Eglington from end to end instead of the useless going nowhere Sheppard line. What dumb ass thought of that I don't know? Sheppard busses seem to be busy during rush hour. But I know from experience that the Eglington busses are always crowded and you can never get a seat day and night 7 days a week. They should put a subway under Eglington. Also the same on Queen/King. We have these $Multi-Million$ streetcars for what? Cause their romantic or some dumb thing I heard? They are always crowded to the hilt and blocking tons of traffic. Put them underground. Clear the traffic and get more people farther much faster if they built a subway there.

I don't think any of this will happen in our lifetimes though. Heck these aholes can't even buy a $500. computer with out having a $million$ study. And then after wards by the time the study comes to an end all the info is old. So they have to ‘study’ it again. Look how long they have been studying the waterfront. $Millions$ of been spent and still not one project has even been started or even really decided upon. Same thing for how we are going to get a better system to get to the airport or York U. How many more studies and proposals are they going to have and still not even one spike in the ground? I would be willing to bet you come back 50 years from now and they are still f**kin studying it.

 

[mr. x]

frankly, this is a stupid plan.

sorry to be so blunt, but subways are at the root of the tTC's problems. consider this: just extending the subway to york university will cost 1.2 billion dollars, and extending the shpeeard line to scarborough town centre is another couple of billion or so.

on top of theat, the ttc doesn't have the money to keep its existing facilities running - it needs to pay for a massive capital improvements plan over the next decade.

and then there is the scarborough lrt - it can't be extended - they no longer make the vehicles that run on this line - the ones they make are longer, and can't handle the sharp turns! it might have to be torn down in the end, and replaced with something else.

there is a huge need to improve transit in the suburbs, but one thing is that subways need high passenger volumes to pay for themselves - most of these routes won't get anywhere near that.

the solution will involve light rail, dedicated bus routes and other systems that can handle lower volumes, but provide higher speeds than buses on main streets, and to do so at an affrdable price.

hey, if you have a way to find 50 billion dollars or so to build your plans, bravo, but otherwise, fugheddabouddit!

 

[Gord's Bro]

Won't see a subway to Richmond Hill . . .

. . . well, forever! Just WAY too much $$$$$

York Region does have a new bus rapid transit plan that's going to cost big bucks. But that money is still peanuts compared to subway construction.


G's B.

 

[Fork Master]

lol ok ok, I realize it will never happen because it costs too much to do anything in Canada, and that currently Toronto is still a small city and doesn't have the population density to support a real subway system.

Right now, Toronto is one big subdivision, but in ten years hopefully they start ripping out the subdivisions and put 40 story condos in their place.

 

[Keebler Elf]

People in Richmond Hill probably wouldn't allow a subway out their way anyhow.

There are many communities (usually suburbs) that have no interest in the subway; they don't want the "riffraff" from Toronto coming out to their neck of the woods.

 

[C Dick]

I can't believe that a subway connection to the airport would not pay for itself. Having to change trains at Eglinton and again at Yonge would not be ideal though.

 

[burlboy]

I really think they blew it when they didn't extend a line to the airport somehow. Don't know if that will happen while the liberals are in power in the various gov'ts. many of the Cabbies are Liberal members and want there monopoly protected. Also extending the subway toward Mississauga would fuel the migration of the downtown jobs to Hazel's territory if there is a transit link, and Toronto wants to prevent against that if possible. I also think an extention to York U makes sense but those Idiots can't even negotiate a bus terminal on campus. can you imagine trying to negotiate subway access?

 

[mr. x]

fork master - its not that we don't need more subways, but it is insane putting them where you want to.

subways only make sense in dense urban areas, like the parts of the city built before ww2.

when the yonge subway was built, it was because the streetcars on yonge caused traffic problems - the only way to improve the situation was to build underground, and the passenger volumes made it pay.

a subway was planned for eglinton, but mike harris stopped it when he came to power, but he forced the ttc to keep building the sheppard subway. even eglinton is marginal for a subway - no high enough density to really support it in terms of passenger volumes.

right now, there are problems with the yonge line being impossibly crowded south of bloor during rush hours, and the king and queen streetcars are also slow and running pretty much at capacity - what is needed is a "downtown relief line".

here is something you might not know: there is a subway station already built under the one at yonge and queen street, in anticipation of a queen street subway line!

 

[james t kirk]

a subway was planned for eglinton, but mike harris stopped it when he came to power, but he forced the ttc to keep building the sheppard subway. even eglinton is marginal for a subway - no high enough density to really support it in terms of passenger volumes.

Not quite.

Harris derailed the funding for the subway that was put in place by Bob Rae. At one time they were going to build Eglinton, Sheppard, a line to York, and were even talking about extending Bloor to Sherway Gardens.

Harris took ALL the money away and the City had to pay for it itself, or scrap the whole thing.

There was an emergency council meeting that was even on TV I remember.

Lastman was then mayor of North York and Francis Nunziata was mayor of York (home to the Eglinton line)

Lastman had the political clout to get Sheppard built, Franie had none.

So they built Sheppard at a cost of 860 million dollars I believe.

Hats off to Lastman I guess.

(Though if you believe the rumours, his developer buddies were threatening him with physical harm if the Sheppard got canned.)

here is something you might not know: there is a subway station already built under the one at yonge and queen street, in anticipation of a queen street subway line!

Quite correct.

One day I hope they build a Queen line.

 

[james t kirk]

Personally, I think we need a Queen line from Sherway to Vic Park.

We need an eglinton line from Black Creek to Bayview with an at grade extension to the airport.

We need to extend Bloor to Sherway Gardens

We need another north south line leaving Union Station and heading northwest.

When you figure that every year the City of Toronto (that's just the city, never mind the GTA) pays 9 billion more in taxes to the feds and the province that we never see back.

That's EVERY YEAR, you begin to see how Toronto is getting FUCKED by both levels of government continuously.

Want to know more, click this link.

http://www.realtorontosolutions.ca/

Average subway costs of design and construction is 100 million per kilometre, which includes stations, tunnels, track, mechanical and electrical plant.

Everything but the cars.

At getting robbed of 9 billion a year, you begin to see that this city could easily afford a much more extensive subway system.

Thing is the feds just take Toronto for granted. Example - SARS. The feds coughed up a whopping 10 million dollars relief money for SARS because 41 people died.

Mad cow in Alberta??? One dead cow, caused by the ranchers feeding the cows feed they damn well know they shouldn't be using.

Oh, here, have a billion dollars. If you need more just ask.

Ice Storm in Quebec? Bottomless pit of money.

Newfoundland premier screaming for more money - no problem.

Toronto and the GTA continually get screwed over by both levels of the government.

 

[shack]

Toronto and the GTA continually get screwed over by both levels of the government.

Let's form our own city state.

 

[mr. x]

kirk: a subway does cost $100 per km, versus about $10 million for a streetcar type LRT - which is why lRTs are the way to go.

and yes, harris did cut back on the transit planned by rae, and i remember the sheppard debate - some councillors wanted to back out becuase of the cost, but the province was squeezing them to go ahead -

maybe lastman and buddies did have clout - but it might have been developers who planned on making a killing. development on yonge street was blocked until some transit improvement was put in place.

but one reason the sheppard line went ahead was that there was a presumption that it could pay for itself through development charges - unlike eglinton. of course, lastman's plans for sheppard to be self-financing didn't come about.

 

[ToronToto]

Kudos Fork Master for even posting this thread, regardless of the comments so far.

* Eglinton line would be 20 years too late. Too expensive to build subway now.

* Line to York U makes sense, probably a surface route is best.

* Sheppard subway might be a white elephant. It basically goes now where. Only saves about 5 mins vs an express bus to Don Mills.

* Even Scarborough LRT is debateable. Right-of-way bus from Kennedy to Scarborough Town Centre is almost as fast.

That said. if you look at some other world city systems, you'll realize that they generally have a "radial" system versus a "grid" system. Take a look at Montreal, London, Paris, Stockholm, etc. Even cities hindered by water have better solutions, check Amsterdam, Barcelona, Copenhagen, NYC.

Basically, TO got screwed with poor planing after the subway boom in the 60's/70's. TO got buses while GO lines used favourable rail corridors. However, GO caters to 905ers coming into TO for work, period. It also has has less frequent stops.

btw, anyone see any benefit of the St Clair W right-of-way between Bathurst and Keele. It did work for Spadina Ave.

 

[ToronToto]

TheNiteHwk, no chance in hell that there will be an Eglington subway, 20+ years too late for that.

mr. x, I wouldn't be surprised if the Scarborough LRT isn't transformed soon.

james t kirk, Sheppard line was for Mel's buddies. However, there is new high-density development to just justify it's existence.

 

[WhOiSyOdAdDy?]

I think that all local transit companies should disbanded in favour or a regional transit authority which would be responsible for public transit thoughout the GTA

I think a lot of money could be saved as duplication of services would be cut.

I think it would make it much more sense to have somebody looking at the big picture, instead of individual communities looking after their own public transit companies to provide for a more efficient and effective use of resources.

it is far from perfect but I think the GTA should look at Translink, in the GVA.

http://www.translink.bc.ca/Transportation_Services/Fares_Passes/default.asp

 

[babyface2]

I'm iffy on the Eglinton line, it's about a 10 minute bus ride from eglinton to bloor, that's managable, just take the bus south to the bloor line

The yorku subway line we can go without, its about a 10 minute bus ride from downsview to york, which is also managable, it would be nice to have a bus lane, but it's not needed.. they changed up the route this year, very efficient

My only complaint is the disgusting wait times along eglinton since 2/3's of the busses don't go the entire way

 

[Hugger]

Previous Employment.
UTDC (Urban Transportation Development Corp, light and heavy rail), TTC( planning and development), Orion (transit bus manuf.) MCI (coach manuf.) Eagle Coach (Bus Manuf) and TSI (TransitSystemsInc).
Public Transit is about to undergo a massive change. Any large scale purchase or plan at this point would be a waste of time and huge amounts of money. It would become obsolete before it was completed. Alternate feuls combined with extensive use of carbon fibre has opened the door to new thinking. Say good bye to 38,000lb deisel busses. Construction technology has leaped forward in the past 5 years. Underground subways are about to become obsolete. Above ground Ultra Light Rail Transit ULRT is what is coming. Because the GTA is bounded by water on one side a five spoke hub system is needed. Using transit has to take less time than driving to make it work. the new prototypes being tested today have managed to cut manufacturing costs by 35%, reduced vehical weight by 50% and lowered the operating (large part fuel) cost by 50%. All were going to see is patchwork done for the next few years and that includes, A Regional Transit Authority with better interconnected scheduling. It's happened in Vaughn and will soon cover TTC, Vaughn, Mississauga, Brampton, oakville etc. More refurbishing of current vehicals and more bus lanes.

 

[mr. x]

hugger: i don't think underground subways are obsolete - at least in terms of downtown locations - they do not make any sense in the suburbs - i think there is a concensus here that a queen street subway is needed.

as for the york university extension, it doesn't make any sense, even if as much of the line as possible were to be above ground. the problem is that it cuts diagonally through the chesswood area, and so much of it cannot be at grade, and an elevated subway line also makes little sense.

what would make sense is to utilise the hydro corridor that runs north of finch, and extend a streetcar type lrt line to york university, and beyond. it might be possible to run an lrt line alongside the railway line that cuts through downsview park - run the line along sheppard so it also serves the park and any things that are built there, and then ties into the existing subway line.

i would actually extend the sheppard line east to link up with the sheppard line - then extend the sheppard line towards victoria park, because there is a huge business population that is porrly served. replace the scarborough lrt with light rail lrts which can eventually link up scarborough town centre with the sheppard line. i don't think having a subway running between fairview mall and scarborough town centre makes that much sense.

same thing goes for serving the airport - a GO type train is to expensive - trains will run too infrequently for them to be of any interest to business travelers - you need something that carries fewer passengers but runs more frequently, and that ties into the subway and other transit where possible.

the ideal solution would be a network of streetcar type lrts running around the old suburbs, and the surrounding regions of mississauga, york region etc. can also use this type of system to tie into the TTC's network to facilitate transfers and express services.

the idea of a hub and spoke system might be outdated - employment growth downtown is stalled - what we have is people living downtown and working in the suburbs, or working in one suburb and commuting to another. hub and spoke is a little passe.

same thing goes for

 

[james t kirk]

There is one thing that has not been mentioned here and that is using existing rail corridors that already exist within the city to build subways at.

There are several utilized and abandoned railway corridors that run in all directions throughout the GTA eminating from Union Station and Summerhill Station.

For example, the CNR Newmarket subdivision runs from union station north west to Parkdale, then makes a turn and heads due north crossing Eglinton just east of keele and goes all the way to Newmarket. The track bed is built for 2 tracks, yet only has one at the current time. There is almost 0 freight traffic on it and GO service only in the a.m. and p.m. rush.

The CNR Weston Sub also starts from Union and paralells the Newmarket sub until it breaks west around Parkdale and continues on out to Weston, crossing Weston Road just south of the 401 and right on out to Pearson.

The CPR North Toronto sub can handle 5 tracks and currently has only 2 (albeit very busy freight tracks from Toronto to Montreal. The North Toronto runs from summerhill station west to Toronto West Junction around Keele and Dundas, then joins the Mctear sub which runs due north, and the Galt sub which runs due west.

There are several other under utilized rail corridors also.

The simple solution would be to run commuter trains / subway / electrified commuter trains in these corridors.

They have the perfect grades, they cut right through the heart of the city and continue on out to the suburbs.

All you have to do is convince CNR and CPR to lease you the right of ways. You would have to build a whack of stations, bridges, grade separations at sidings and spurs, but it would be perfect.