My Life

[EnergizerBunny]

Wow! Again to me it is all about perspectives and what we individually see. This thread was exactly my intent. See what you may in THAT.

... I think what bothers me the most about it is how it has been institutionalized as the very worse thing that can happen to a woman.

...but they are allowed to get over it because society says that that situation - being forcibly shown you have no power and do not matter - for men is not intrinsically life-altering.

I have no obligation to society to put the rape in a strange and separate martyred category reserved for the most part for women.

For me, to do that would feel an awful lot like being shown I have no power and do not matter - that my particular reaction to being raped is less important than society hanging onto the idea that a raped woman is marked forever.

I see it exactly the same way Ophelia.

The video is kinda like a battle cry for men to take, back, some of their lost power and to put women in their place.

Interesting perspective Seven, however in my perspective that is the exact opposite swing of the pendulum than that of the feminist view. To me it is as absurd as saying that every time a woman has intercourse she is in effect being raped. Both sides (I think due to hurt and pain) like to see the other as the cause. Life on the one hand is much simpler and on the other much more complex than that. Males and females are both human and I think that it is not a male versus female issue but rather a human issue when living in a society, as Ophelia has pointed out; a society with a history and an evolution. What will we each do, contribute to the cycle or struggle to evolve?

Personally I would like to think that the video was making a social commentary without advocating a firm position, leaving it open to the viewer to react, and the fact that that is what you saw says something about you. I do not mean to be a jerk about the last point; it is just honestly what I think. But I admit I could be very wrong.

 

[Gord's Bro]

Thanks Fay . . .

. . . my mind hurts from all that info but you've given me a different approach to consider. For me, at least, your thoughts on my thoughts are appreciated.

G's B

 

[pool]

I admit I could be very wrong.

... but, I doubt it : )

I totally agree and think that we all see in it what we want to see. The fact that it could stimulate such diverse and thought provoking reactions, I think it's an awesome video.

I can't find any MP3's in winmx and haven't looked at the other vids yet.

 

[EnergizerBunny]

Did anyone watch Doorsteps -- another vid on the same site?

I can't find any MP3's in winmx and haven't looked at the other vids yet.

http://www.baf.org.uk/2003/flash/doorsteps.asp

 

[WhaWhaWha]

I think this thread should be re titled as the group that missed the point.

This video is not about whether rape is ok subject matter for humor for everyone. We know it isnt without watching the video. If someone had put a warning on that link a few people would not have bothered clicking on it at all am I right? "Hey who wants to see a hilarious depiction of violent rape and misery? - click here"


I agree It isnt for everyone. Having said that -- It's still a properly presented albeit dark and satyrical glimpse into an extreme viewpoint about violence, and the societal roles that subjugate men and women and drive them to misunderstand, disrespect and mistreat each other.

The darker, more sickening subject matter presented is a side of humanity that we are all eventually forced to face one way or another - and the fact most people don't utter some of the words or show some of the images on tv at prime time without warning people is only because they have good manners.

So lets at least give our more sensitive members some warning before saying click on this.

 

[EnergizerBunny]

I think this thread should be re titled as the group that missed the point.

... If someone had put a warning on that link a few people would not have bothered clicking on it at all am I right? "Hey who wants to see a hilarious depiction of violent rape and misery? - click here"

So lets at least give our more sensitive members some warning before saying click on this.

A little dramatic don't you think? (Well I guess you didn't ) This is an adult review board and not primetime. Also it was a cartoon and not exactly a scene from the movie "The Accused". But you may have a point, even if you do sound a little like Rev.

 

[Fay]

I agree It isnt for everyone. Having said that -- It's still a properly presented albeit dark and satyrical glimpse into an extreme viewpoint about violence, and the societal roles that subjugate men and women and drive them to misunderstand, disrespect and mistreat each other.



Wow! Yes! Very astute observation, well put!

-F

 

[Fay]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Ophelia Black
My perspective on rape is hard to explain. I think what bothers me the most about it is how it has been institutionalized as the very worse thing that can happen to a woman.

but they are allowed to get over it because society says that that situation - being forcibly shown you have no power and do not matter - for men is not intrinsically life-altering.

How come women aren't allowed to react the same way? Is it a life-altering situation in and of itself, or is it something society lays on us as the perpetually damaged virgin bride?

***I agree with a lot of this. Like was mentioned earlier, violences have specific times and places with their own interpretations. I have so much to say on this and not enough time to say it in, but I'll try...

I think awareness of a problem is good. I also think that sometimes a social problem can get sensationalized to the point where it instills paranoia, can perpetuate stereotypes, and can make something appear to be a naturalized epidemic. I think this is actually one of the things that can make getting over things like sexual assault for women even more difficult, because it becomes a common discourse that those who are raped are inherently sad, damaged victims for life, and that it is waiting around every corner. That being said, there really are genuinely a lot of people who have a hard time getting a grip after stuff like that happens, and the reasons why it may be harder for some than others to get over it are so incredibly layered, ranging from different experiences of class, race, cultural up-bringing and values, to personal experience. And there are many, many ways to display trauma and there are many many ways and rates at which to recover. War veterans are a good example of how a generalized group can have a whole lot of variation within in terms of how people deal with violence and trauma, as well as an example of how men, too, can be severly fucked up about something that the rest of us just go "What's the big deal? Why does (insert seemingly innoccent action or object here) make you all sensitive and upset?" Shell-shock or post trauma "disorder" doesn't affect every soldier in a war, but it is a common enough phenomenon that we can't just dismiss it on the basis that many soldiers don't experience it, nor can we just assume that those who do are just mentally weak. It probably has a lot to do with time, place, emotional state at the time, the specifics of an event or events, and how these very sepcific events tie in with one's own previous experiences and sense of self in relation to the world. My grandfather never drove a car after WWII. We don't know exactly why, he can't even talk about it, but apparently the idea of even sitting behind the wheel of a car just emotionally devastates the guy. Something bad happened, this much is apparent.

Oh goodness, I'm so sorry, my brain's just empty right now, I've got so much more to say and no words to say it! I think I started adressing your point and then went on a tangent!

Last point, and then I'll stop writing essays on terb

EB had said earlier that rape is not gender-specific, and I meant to get back to that. This is also very, very true, and an interesting study which I've considered doing for a long time now is about male victims of sexual violence: How under-represented is it? What is the motivation of the majority of perpetrators (a recent study I had read claimed that the vast majority of men raping men actually identified as heterosexuals)? And what are the issues that survivors of these attacks face when they are trying to get over it? How many are the victim of repeated, non-related attacks? How do they deal afterwards? I wouldn't do a study like this with the intention of trying to prove that women and men are exactly the same on this subject, nor would i be doing it to try and prove that it's worse for one gender than it is for the other. Just to see wha the differences are and to figure out where the differences come from.

Oh blah, I give up, I'm so fuzzy right now. Anyone wanna start a thread about alimony? (groan) Any of you who are suspicious of me being all "Yay women" and "Boo men" up to this point might be delighted to know that I'm not a fan of alimony, which I think ties in with our poor little protagonist in the first link who is stuck working all the time with a wife who cheats on him, and was probably afraid to get out of a joyless marriage earlier for fear of having to support her forever anyway.


-F

 

[seven]

Huh???

Originally posted by EB[/b]
Personally I would like to think that the video was making a social commentary without advocating a firm position, leaving it open to the viewer to react, and the fact that that is what you saw says something about you. I do not mean to be a jerk about the last point; it is just honestly what I think. But I admit I could be very wrong. [/B]

Stop playing rank amateur psychologist EB. Personally, I don't think you got the video. Why do you think the opening scene started with a revenge rape (with the two men sharing a bonding experience after the rape, trying to affirm what the one guy did - clubbing the woman over the head and then raping her - as a good thing or at least trying to pass it off as acceptable)? Why do you think the video depicted the man going off to work to meet the woman's demands while she sat at home watching TV? Do you think the timing of the rape (right after he found out she was cheating on him) was coincidental? This is hardly a video making a social commentary w/o advocating a firm position. Your interpretation fails to take into consideration the questions I posed.

PS - I never said I agreed with the message put forth, and I don't. I think rape is inexcusable, unlike the creator of the video. I don't view my relationships with women as one of control and that is not what I derive from them. I don't hate women and I view them as equal to men, no better or no less.

 

[Ophelia Black]

You got it Fay - according to society the only acceptable role for a woman post-rape is victim. What a crock. How about really pissed off?

One of the more illuminating comments I've heard on the topic was when I was doing phone sex, and talking to the chick assigning calls. She told me another girl didn't want to do a rape fantasy because she'd been raped in real life. She paused for a second, then said matter-of-factly, "Yeah, like who hasn't been?"

Had no answer to that.

 

[Fay]

Hey, seven, that was my original impression of it as well, and that's why it hit me kinda harsh. It's no secret that there are people out there who do think like this (the intent of the clip as interpreted by you, I mean) and the best we can do is hope that they don't touch our lives in any direct way, refuse to accept or permit it when it crosses our path, and hope it dies out with generations.

Whatever the actual intent of the clip, EB's and pool's impressions of it make me wonder if they percieved it that way because the justification and rationalization you saw in it just falls so far outside of the realm of possiblility for them, like "Naw, that couln't possibly be the intent, that would just be sick and stupid" so they interpreted a broader, more neutral and non-aggressive intent. And that sat good in my heart because it made me think "Well, these are people who neither want nor see the logic in trying to justify this kind of thing, and so they will not see it that way." In this way I think their view on it is valid.

Your interpretation, on the other hand, also brings up some very important observations IMO, which are hard to ignore, and suggests to me that you observed it with an active awareness of current social climate as well as subtleties in the acting and timing, which come together in such a way that it does seem to have some sort of "message" of revenge and justification. And because of my exasperating senisitivities on the subject, it's hard for me to judge that kind of thing without doubling-back on myself and wondering if I'm over-politicising or if it makes me a knee-jerk feminist extremist in appearance. Like you, I have no beliefs in any superiority in any way (moral, mental, physical, practical) inherent or essential to any of the sexes/genders, and there should be no notions of power attached to them.

Holy cow, am I even making any sense? Okay, now I'm really done. (Bad, Fay, bad girl....go do your homework!)

 

[seven]

The reality of it.

I think some people should step back and think about what the creator of the video did. To my way of thinking, he took something that is way past the boundaries of what is socially acceptable behaviour – clubbing a girl over the head and raping her – and attempted to rationalize it away with fuzzy moral rationalizations, positive imagery, and cool animations.

Just take the initial scene. The way the main character tries to hike up the girl’s skirt is starting to push the boundaries of what is considered ethically and morally right in a very subtle way. The reality of the situation is that the guy is invading her personal privacy and space with a certain degree of force, but the animation is just so kewl, as well as being done with a certain effortlessness and flow, we overlook it. The song in the background is just so hypnotic and repetitive that it lulls our moral awareness to sleep, so that he can introduce the taboo subject of rape on our collective minds with minimal moral indignation. As we are being desensitized the creator introduces us to the theme of rape and violence swiftly and tries to validate it by having the TWO men nod their heads in agreement beforehand in an attempt to justify it by way of a common consensus and pack mentality. As well he tries to show the girl as the aggressor first to legitimize the ensuing further violence. Afterwards, he minimizes it by having the girl walk away seemly okay and immediately associating positive cool imagery with the violent act – the one guy flicking a Zippo and both of them lighting up in a male bonding experience with the puff of smoke in the background that many identify with a sense of well-being and stress relief. At this point, we have almost forgotten that the guy clubbed the girl over the head with his CANE and took sex from her while she laid there UNCONSCIOUS face down. How morally wrong is that, yet the creator did it with such cleverness, many people came away thinking it was cool.

The rest of the video is weak justifications playing off our feelings of powerlessness, sexual frustrations and sense of despair to slowly numb us and blur the lines between right and wrong. That video is just plain wrong and not cool at all.

 

[Ophelia Black]

My take on it was this; the present basic model of industrialised Western life is inherently f**king ugly. For everybody.

So wake up. Do something about it in your own time on this earth because it is short, and getting shorter.

 

[The Baroness]

My perspective on rape is hard to explain. I think what bothers me the most about it is how it has been institutionalized as the very worse thing that can happen to a woman.

What bothers me is this - rape is about being forcibly shown you have no power, and do not matter. I have male friends who have been alone when attacked and shit-kicked by a group of other guys. It fucking sucks, but they are allowed to get over it because society says that that situation - being forcibly shown you have no power and do not matter - for men is not intrinsically life-altering.


I have no obligation to society to put the rape in a strange and separate martyred category reserved for the most part for women.

For me, to do that would feel an awful lot like being shown I have no power and do not matter - that my particular reaction to being raped is less important than society hanging onto the idea that a raped woman is marked forever.

Awesome Post......I have always been of the mind......"He took those 3 minutes of my life...I am not giving him one more second of it"
Alot of people dont understand that or think I'm "not dealing with it'.

 

[pool]

my picky friend ...

Seven,

Afterwards, he minimizes it by having the girl walk away seemly okay and immediately associating positive cool imagery with the violent act – the one guy flicking a Zippo and both of them lighting up in a male bonding experience with the puff of smoke in the background that many identify with a sense of well-being and stress relief.

Even although, I smoke, I saw it as typical, sad, pathetic and tragic male bonding machismo crap.

I almost replied to Energiser B's initial post with "interesting" instead of "cool", because I know I tend to use "cool" in a very broad manner. I'm pretty sure if someone else had posted it, my reaction would have been different. In other words, I may have taken a different stance, which I also think to be a valid perspective.

Your latest analysis is closer to my knee jerk reaction, which was also close to Fay's initial post in this thread. My reply to Fay was in essence, to counter balance her point of view and my overall thoughts on it after mulling it over somewhat.

Do I think it's funny ? No, not really. Amusing, maybe, in the context I stated earlier. This is my personal view as to how it effects me. I like anything that reaffirms, expands or makes me question my perspective. It's always comforting to know that others see the world for what it is. That's what this video does for me. In no way does it trivialise rape. I did actually watch it without sound as I can see how, no matter how immune we think we are to becoming desensitised, the music could have that effect in the context of the video.

I can see how it might have an influence on someone at any age who is impressionable, but that is obviously not the case in the majority of the people who replied to this thread. If it does have any effect on people who see it as acceptable behaviour, then it's desensitising or affirming what is already instilled in them : (

I used to have a T-shirt of the band, Fudge Tunnel ( yeah, well ) which had the word HATE written all over it in large black and red block letters. A couple of people asked me why I would wear something like that. I'd ask them how it made them feel and once I managed to get some reaction, they would essentially say that it's ugly, offencive and makes them feel uneasy. To which, I replied, "yeah".

To me that shirt was cool. My point is, that the intent and effect of something can be the complete opposite of what it may appear. In this case, as stated before it is a social commentary and, I think a relatively clever one, at that. To my mind it minimises and trivialises nothing. In fact, just the opposite. It is exposing social behaviours in all their twisted ugliness. On that level, from my perception it is cool.

If I ever hear the video song, and this will sound cheesy, but it would be like an anthem against all the bullshit conditioning we accept in society which is in reality, is not acceptable

PS Fudge Tunnel have a song called 'Grey" : )

 

[Ophelia Black]

"Life is Unfair." Discuss.

You are an evil genius

 

[Goober Mcfly]

Triumph the Insult Dog...........

That was a great cartoon....FOR ME TO POOP ON!

 

[EnergizerBunny]

For f***'s sakes, lighten up.
It's about the monotony of life, ...

I could never imagine your life being monotonous Selina! Can I watch? "I like to watch." - Chance the Gardener

 

[EnergizerBunny]

Re: Huh???

Stop playing rank amateur psychologist EB.

Now what fun would that be?

Personally, I don't think you got the video. ...

Personally, I think ... err ... you may be right ...

Do you think the timing of the rape (right after he found out she was cheating on him) was coincidental?

Interesting ... for me the video stopped when he was presented with the same situation. Maybe I blacked out again ...

Do you think that the son was the father?

Do you think that the drunk doctor wanted to get back at women?

Do you think that in the military he was pissed on by a women?

Oh so many questions ...

 

[EnergizerBunny]

Baby please don't go ...

I can't take it anymore, I'm going back to Germany..........

Gehe nicht mein Liebchen! We need your counterbalance in a North America increasingly duped by "The Man". But if you do go, please take me with you to the Netherlands, we would have more fun there; as I am sure that that pig Pyro is soon to find out.