muslims on a plane......

[crystalpalace]

You've missed the point.
The FBI maintains the TSC. The TSA relies on the TSC to determine who flies and who does not. So, when the FBI clears passengers, this is, in usual practice, good enough for the TSA. Why it wasn't this time has made people question their motives.

I think you two are mixing something up here. This family was NOT on the No Fly list at all to begin with. The TSA checked their baggage and person (twice) and ran them against the No Fly list and cleared them just like they do every single person who is getting on a plane.

The FBI investigated a suspicious activity report and cleared them as well. End of the story.

TSA did NOT prevent boarding, the stupid Airtran did!

 

[Aardvark154]

I think you two are mixing something up here. This family was NOT on the No Fly list at all to begin with. The TSA checked their baggage and person (twice) and ran them against the No Fly list and cleared them just like they do every single person who is getting on a plane.

The FBI investigated a suspicious activity report and cleared them as well. End of the story.

TSA did NOT prevent boarding, the stupid Airtran did!

See #120. I'll agree the decision was probably not wise. However the decision was entirely legal - lawsuits are based on points of law, not subjective questions of wisdom.

 

[Aardvark154]

Precisely, crystalpalace.
My point is that to say that the FBI has nothing to do with it (the screening procedures of the TSA) is simply pure evasion - totally untrue.

Certainly I didn't say that. The issue here is that wise or foolish AirTran was within the scope of 49 USC 44902(b)

 

[crystalpalace]

Sorry Crystal, as much as we like to think it's possible, you cannot fully "forget about someone's race or religion". It's impossible. We are who we are.

For eg, it is RETARDED not to be able to focus in on a certain group of people who are prone to terrorist acts simply because it isn't politically correct.

For eg: according to the TPSB, the majority of violent crimes in Toronto are committed by african americans. If we cannot include race in any type of focus, or attention, then how can we ever hope to stop crime? If the majority of crimes are committed by african americans then the police should focus their attention on that group, find out why they commit the crimes and then take steps to change or eradicate the reasons.

And you have to admit, they're doing a pretty good job of NOT committing racial profiling when they body search 85 yr old white great grandmothers in wheelchairs and make blond haired 5 yr old girls take off their shoes.

Now you may say: HECK they were a FAMILY with KIDS....but I bet you forget about the car bombing that happened in Iraq early last year where the soldiers let a car through a checkpoint because they had two kids in the back seat? Well, they used the kids to cover the bomb that killed 45 in a market.

Sorry, but if it is people of middle eastern heritage that are committing acts of terrorism then we should pay particular attention to middle easter peoples.

Now you may say that is wrong, but don't forget millions of WHITE people are not even allowed into the US because 20 yrs ago they were arrested and convicted of a crime.

Frankly, I'd rather the airlines and TSA etc be overly sensitive to comments than not. I'd rather them risk a pissed off family and react to every comment than pull back and miss a comment and have a plane go down.

I fully believe the needs of the many or majority vastly outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

Here's a reverse example: You have 4 african american friends. You go to a club and they meet another group (who happen to be african american) they say to each other "hey my _iggers, what's going on"? You say "hey my _iggers, what's going on"? and I bet you get bitch slapped or get a severe dressing down. Sorry, but some people can say some things and others can't. It's just the way it is......

I agree on focusing based on profiles! Let's focus on the people of the same race, religion and color of Timothy McVeigh as well then! Last I checked he murdered 168 Americans single handily vs the 2974 that the 19 Arabs murdered on 9/11. If you do the math the Arabs actually each murdered 154 Americans.

And about the Iraqi story, that is Iraq this was in the United States. Those were Iraqis, this family is American Citizens. It's completely irrelevant what happens in Iraq should transpire on to how we react at home in the US towards American Citizens.

 

[crystalpalace]

See #120. I'll agree the decision was probably not wise. However the decision was entirely legal - lawsuits are based on points of law, not subjective questions of wisdom.

Legal or not, the jury will be out on that one when it goes to court.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Sorry I consistently shoot you down, Capital Guy. It must be annoying for you.

You haven't shot me down at anything. Maybe in your own mind, but not on paper.

What's annoying is that you appear to be a reasonably intelligent person who does not seem to know how to engage other adults in mature debate. All you really need to do to correct that is eliminate the last lines of most of your posts, where you put down the person you are "debating". Lose the attitude. Its a bit sad, because your opinions are lessened by the immaturity of your attempted put-downs, and this otherwise interesting board is made a less interesting place.

 

[tboy]

I agree on focusing based on profiles!

1) Let's focus on the people of the same race, religion and color of Timothy McVeigh as well then! Last I checked he murdered 168 Americans single handily vs the 2974 that the 19 Arabs murdered on 9/11. If you do the math the Arabs actually each murdered 154 Americans.

2) And about the Iraqi story, that is Iraq this was in the United States. Those were Iraqis, this family is American Citizens. It's completely irrelevant what happens in Iraq should transpire on to how we react at home in the US towards American Citizens.

1) They do, every day. They focus on white supremist groups, private militias, and screen every white person who boards a plane and kicks them off for just about any breach of security. For eg: how many times in the news have we heard about a WHITE person getting drunk and being arrested?

2) You may think it is different but imagine if they will use kids to destroy innocent iraqis what makes you think they won't do it here? In fact, I'd say they'd be MORE prone to do it here because we (as westerners) are their god endorsed mortal enemies.

As for what happens in other parts of the world being irrelevant to what happens here, that's just ludicrous. So if a terrorist smuggles a bomb on board a plane in a shampoo bottle in Britain, we shouldn't check for bombs in shampoo bottles here? yeah, ok,

And in case you forget: those terrorists the RCMP arrested here in Toronto who were planning some act were CANADIAN citizens......

 

[crystalpalace]

1) They do, every day. They focus on white supremist groups, private militias, and screen every white person who boards a plane and kicks them off for just about any breach of security. For eg: how many times in the news have we heard about a WHITE person getting drunk and being arrested?

2) You may think it is different but imagine if they will use kids to destroy innocent iraqis what makes you think they won't do it here? In fact, I'd say they'd be MORE prone to do it here because we (as westerners) are their god endorsed mortal enemies.

As for what happens in other parts of the world being irrelevant to what happens here, that's just ludicrous. So if a terrorist smuggles a bomb on board a plane in a shampoo bottle in Britain, we shouldn't check for bombs in shampoo bottles here? yeah, ok,

And in case you forget: those terrorists the RCMP arrested here in Toronto who were planning some act were CANADIAN citizens......

So much generalization, so much profiling and so many "they"s used I don't even know where to begin.

By your logic then I guess since Timothy McVeigh blow a truck up now we should suspect EVERY person who fits his white, christian profile is potentially going to one day blow another building up?!

And I never talked about the shampoo or bombs smuggled on board, of course we should observe and correct our posture in response, I was talking about how what an IRAQI national is doing in his country against an arguable occupation should have NO bearing on how we treat American or Canadian Citizens of Arab, Iraqi or Muslim decent as they are as American or as Canadian as anyone else.

Of course the guys who were arrested here Canadian Citizens but so what? Timothy McVeigh was an American Citizen too! Bad citizens exist everywhere...

 

[tboy]

Crystal: don't get your knickers in a knot, we're just talking ok?

They as in a group of individuals. This could be "they" as in the authorities, they as muslim extremists and they as in airline passengers. Nothing wrong with calling a group "them/they/those".

Actually, to use your example of Tim McVeigh, yes they DO focus their attention on white single supremists who buy a large quantity of fertilizer and rent a cube van. To compare it to the story the OP posted:
White/Middle Eastern
Belonged to a supremist group/Muslim (where it is widely publicized that westerners are their mortal enemy
Outside a federal government building/On board a plane full of civilians
Acted (what we NOW know to be) suspicious/Said something that could be construed as suspicious.

Now I bet no one ever thought they'd see two airliners fly into a building and I bet no one ever thought they'd see a muslim family blow themselves up. But we've seen both and now watch out for it.

Bottom line is: we ALL have to be careful what we say while boarding or while on a plane, unfortunately some have to be more careful than others.....but don't blame society, blame the extremists.......

 

[crystalpalace]

Crystal: don't get your knickers in a knot, we're just talking ok?

They as in a group of individuals. This could be "they" as in the authorities, they as muslim extremists and they as in airline passengers. Nothing wrong with calling a group "them/they/those".

Actually, to use your example of Tim McVeigh, yes they DO focus their attention on white single supremists who buy a large quantity of fertilizer and rent a cube van. To compare it to the story the OP posted:
White/Middle Eastern
Belonged to a supremist group/Muslim (where it is widely publicized that westerners are their mortal enemy
Outside a federal government building/On board a plane full of civilians
Acted (what we NOW know to be) suspicious/Said something that could be construed as suspicious.

Now I bet no one ever thought they'd see two airliners fly into a building and I bet no one ever thought they'd see a muslim family blow themselves up. But we've seen both and now watch out for it.

Bottom line is: we ALL have to be careful what we say while boarding or while on a plane, unfortunately some have to be more careful than others.....but don't blame society, blame the extremists.......

I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence. I was also under the assumption we were engaged in dialogue however you do tend to generalize quiet a bit.

And of course they thought they would see airliners fly in to buildings. The WTC were built to specifically withstand a hit from a 707 jetliner so it had been visioned before that someday, accidental or not, this would happen.

I agree we need to watch out for suspicious activity but based on your logic and your own stats re: how majority of crimes are committed in Toronto by African Americans I guess every black guy in the downtown wearing baggy pants and a hoodie is a potential suspicious person who might be packing heat or just about to rub somewhere.

How can you differentiate between the good and the bad? You can't! Again back to McVeigh, while he was a supremacist, the words were not stamped on his head ya know? He looked like just another white christian Joe from the mid west.

This family DID NOT say anything out of line. They discussed the SAFEST SEAT on a plane! This is a very normal and common discussion. Had they said anything remotely like a bomb, boom or hijack I would have 100% sympathized with the airline.

I suppose if you're Muslim and of color you're expected to just board the plane and SFU so that the white folks don't accidentally misinterpret your words.

 

[Aardvark154]

So you say.

By all means read it yourself, there is a link at the bottom of #118, click on the section number.

 

[tboy]

Ok, to take your points one at a time:
AA in baggy pants, hoodie, and jeans pulled down to their thighs: if it walks like a duck talks like a duck and goes quack, it's a mother fuckin duck lol. Now if one doesn't want to be treated like a gang banger, then maybe they shouldn't dress like one?

It's called how one presents themselves....which is the first thing the vast majority of people base their impression on.....Now an AA dressed in an armani suit could be the biggest drug runner on the planet yet he'd be approached quite differently.

How to differentiate between the good and bad? You look for things that might be clues, in this case, discussions about the structure of the plane. So am I to understand that we (everyone including all races) should simply ignore anything that MIGHT be a clue?

As for the WTC being built to withstand the impact of a 707, I heard on one of the specials that it was designed for a light aircraft, not an airliner. The architect specifically said in an interview that it wasn't designed to withstand the impact of an airliner.......and with new ideas come new practices, when a group of one race commits a crime, the authorities and civilians learn and keep an eye out for clues. Now they may be fishing with a 700 mile drift net instead of a net specifically designed to catch that one fish, but that's the fallout of taking precautions.

Now what would you have anyone do? Ignore anything that might be a sign or a clue and only react to someone who is specifically stating one of the 10 words you can't say on an airplane?

1) middle eastern people(s) commit terrorist acts
2) Middle eastern families have committed terrorist acts
3) yes other races have committed terrorist acts which is why EVERYONE is subject to search, seizure and removal from an aircraft
4) Some words spoken by some people have no meaning, some words spoken by other people have meaning. That is an undeniable fact.

It is unfortunate and terrible that many have to pay for the deeds of a few but as for your last statement?

YES that is the case. Just as I (being a white person) can't use the N word, middle eastern people can't discuss plane safety. Sucks, I know, but what are you going to do?

 

[Aardvark154]

Legal or not, the jury will be out on that one when it goes to court.

Presumably, the above should be read that you feel they should argue that the law is unconstitutional.

 

[Anynym]

..the majority of crimes committed in Toronto are not by Black people born in the United States. I am extremely confident of this in fact.

You have clearly never heard the BBC describe racially-motivated riots in south London with reference to "African Americans" -- describing individuals who had never stepped foot outside of London, let alone ever been to (or come from) Africa or the U.S.

 

[fuji]

The FBI agent cleared the people and told the airline that it was safe for them to fly and there were no problems but the airline refused to allow them back onto the plane. The family's complaint is not directed at the government but rather at the airline.

The airline isn't legally allowed to let them on the plane until they are cleared by the TSA. Being cleared by the FBI does not mean you have been cleared by the TSA.

Since the TSA rely heavily on the FBI it's a good start but it is not the final step.

 

[fuji]

Which is nothing but racism, since the FBI maintains the TSA list, as I pointed out.

It was pointed out to you that you are ignorant of the process by which the TSA updates that information from the FBI, whether they add their own information, and how quickly that process happens.

You remain ignorant and yet you speak...

Telling.

 

[fuji]

I think you two are mixing something up here. This family was NOT on the No Fly list at all to begin with. The TSA checked their baggage and person (twice) and ran them against the No Fly list and cleared them just like they do every single person who is getting on a plane.

The FBI investigated a suspicious activity report and cleared them as well. End of the story.

TSA did NOT prevent boarding, the stupid Airtran did!

With all due respect you are making this up. You don't know.

Here is another possibility:

1) TSA clear them

2) FBI become suspicious as a result of complaints

3) FBI informs TSA of its concerns

4) TSA orders the airline to ground the plane and remove the passengers

5) FBI screen the passengers and clear them

6) FBI informs TSA of its decision

7) TSA is really fucking slow in processing information

8) TSA is really fucking slow in processing information

9) TSA is really fucking slow

10) TSA finally informs the airline that they are OK to fly, and not until this point is it legal for the airline to allow them to fly

So if their later flight was somewhere between steps 6 and steps 9 then they missed it because the TSA is fucking slow.

I don't know that is true.

You don't know it isn't true.

You keep on making this stuff up as you go along because it suits the ideological chip on your shoulder but the reality is that unless you are privy to information that has not been printed in the news then you are ignorant of the truth.

Ignorant and yet you keep speaking...

 

[hickorysticks]

That all may be "true." However, if Russian terriorists were blowing up aircraft and you overheard a Polish family discussing something what sounded suspicious to you. Would the Airline not be justified in saying please fly another carrier today?

"sounded suspicious"?!! which part of asking where the safest place to sit while flying is suspicious? This is ridiculous! I had no idea people were so prejudiced. For fucks's sake, if it were a WHITE Canadian family asking the same thing, they never would have been questioned.... stop trying to fool yourselves into thinking that the gov./airlines were just doing their jobs.

 

[hickorysticks]

...do we have another case of someone who didn't read the article, or are you just as xenophobic as some others...or maybe you are just "slow".

Let's be clear - everyone pay attention. These people said NOTHING ABOUT A BOMB.

ARE WE ALL CLEAR ON THAT NOW???

They, in conversation with themselves, wondered aloud which part of plane is safest in the event of an accident. A conversation I have heard MANY times on airplanes...a conversation that was utterly and completely irrelevant since seats are ASSIGNED (HELLO!!!) and last time I checked, no one blows up a plane hoping to survive (and accordingly is concerned about which part of the plane is safest in the event of a crash). I also haven't heard any stories of terrorist traveling with their wives and children, but I know some of you think Muslims all over the world would do such a thing.

Oh, and did I mention that the only act of terrorism every carry out by an American citizen was executed by a white guy? Have we bared white guys from renting trucks yet? What about from buying fertilizer?

amen. thankyou MLAM for being so rational on this topic!

 

[hickorysticks]

Don't engage this fonzarelli guy. His whole dismissive thing "bzzz, next" is silly, and he is consistently demonstrating a lack of willingness to engage in mature dialogue. He's not a useful contributor to this board. Thankfully, people like him go away if no one pays them any attention.

Actually, I appreciate the insight he provided... irregardless of how "new" he is.