The ads will just be more tame. Instead of saying stuff like bbbj, dfj, etc. they will just average time with an elite companion. The law is pretty pointless regarding the advertising.
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Good for Elizabeth May. She's set this up so that each and every clause of the bill would have to be debated separately, and it would take forever. Be interesting to see what comes of this. Nice to know that at least one member of parliament has a pair.
I had a good time watching Young and I really liked when he said that.
Police support the bill because they always want to have as many laws as possible they can use. No policeman is ever going to say they don't need a law. However, what was evident in his answers is the preponderance of police discretion and the difficulty of getting evidence for indoor prostitution. Take-home message, they should pretty much continue to enforce as before. I wished someone had asked him how it could reduce demand if they just continued to enforce with discretion as before. This a key point. If the law doesn't do what the objective claim, it is unconstitutional.
Tom Stamatakis can't wait to get his hands on bigger budgets for his union to enforce these new laws against the johns on the other hand Alan Young is very good, he's strong in his points and I hope he's put some fear into the Reform Party of Canada.
During hearing today, Senator Joyal read Stamatakis a quote from his own Vancouver LE policy that clearly stated that sex work between consenting adult was not a priority of the police. Policemen are in a difficult situation in this hearing. They support the law, but also have no illusions about the so-called objective of eradication. They want a law, but not for the stated objectives in the preamble (except maybe for religious men like Rick Hansom from Calgary LE).
Marijuana is an illegal substance; sex between adults is not. That is a whole difference between the two issues.
Finally, someone had to say it in these hearings.
What really bothers me, is they can make a law based on no evidence and then lawyers have to spend 5 years collecting evidence against it before starting a challenge. So, they could just as well pass a law saying the color green is inherently degrading and we would have to spend years to prove that it's not true?
What was disappointing was the fact this may take 5 years based on Mr. Young's beliefs. I hope he is part of any challenge presented, he's forceful and passionate. Although I do blame Bedford and Alan for this fiasco and allowing the Reform Party to pounce on it, I do believe he's the one to carry the day in another challenge.Finally, someone had to say it in these hearings.
What really bothers me, is they can make a law based on no evidence and then lawyers have to spend 5 years collecting evidence against it before starting a challenge. So, they could just as well pass a law saying the color green is inherently degrading and we would have to spend years to prove that it's not true?
They want a law that they can enforce when it serves their purpose (to displace street workers, to arrest bad pimps, etc). They are not going to enforce it with the goal of arresting everyone and eliminating the sex trade. For police, the laws are their tools. They use whatever tool is suitable to keep the peace and arrest bad guys, but they are not going to enforce all the laws blindly to the letter.
Ukraine:
Prostitution is illegal but widespread and largely ignored by the government. Sex tourism rose as the country attracted greater numbers of foreign tourists. On January 12, the parliament passed tougher criminal penalties for human trafficking and coerced prostitution. However, previous laws criminalizing organized prostitution have had little effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Ukraine
Ukrainian police find it futile to go after consenting sexwork
Prostitution is illegal but widespread and largely ignored by the government. Sex tourism rose as the country attracted greater numbers of foreign tourists. On January 12, the parliament passed tougher criminal penalties for human trafficking and coerced prostitution. However, previous laws criminalizing organized prostitution have had little effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Ukraine
Ukrainian police find it futile to go after consenting sexwork
Don't be under any illusion that the cops only want to bust trafficked and underage persons. When they don't find these persons in a raid, which is most of the time, they will lay any other charge that suits them in order to save face; plus, they will use the law selectively (thus unfairly) for any other purpose than to 'rescue' the poor oppressed persons. Stamatakis does not speak for every police department in Canada; he may represent a consensus, but that is not unanimous. The Saskatoon police chief, for example, doesn't feel that the law is going to achieve its purpose, and he would not want to see the new law push the trade underground where it's impossible to control. Some good sense, for a change!
I did find it interesting about Young saying that he couldn't go the Criminal route to contest the law because, as soon as a Crown thinks a prosecution may be contested, they drop the charges in case the law gets invalidated by the courts. So if someone gets charged, your lawyer pledging to take it all the way to the SCC should get you off the hook. It should be easy, because the law is full of constitutional issues. The system is rotten when they try to apply laws that they know won't stand up to challenge.
Absolutely. Police discretion is good in itself, but a law that is too arbitrary and broad can give rise to police abuse and corruption.
I just wonder how much money it would cost in lawyer fee before they drop the charges. They don't have to drop the charges immediately. They can drag it for very long I suppose.
It looks like a carbon copy of what Craigslist adult ads section used to be like.
In dozens of online ad titles there i didn't see one that implied an offer of sex for money, for example "BBBJ $60". Not in a dozen ads i randomly chose & read either.
OTOH in the Vancouver Georgia Straight there were a couple there yesterday of the type "BBBJ FS CIM $80".
LE may have no interest in pursuing public soliciting charges against online ads. At least in Vancouver when the ads are in a code that the general public may not understand & you have to agree you are an adult to see the ads. I don't know but would guess Toronto LE would be more hard assed in that regard.
"Vancouver LE policy that clearly stated that sex work between consenting adult was not a priority of the police."
Even with an undercover street sting i wonder if they'd arrest a guy who said "BBBJ 3 greens?" or "oral delights...10 starbucks coffees?". They might need it to be clearly spelled out..."Bare Back Blow Job FOR 60 dollars". Even then, many people don't know what a BJ is. You'ld have speak about a type of oral sex or fallacio for them to begin to understand.
What's the definition of a "place" & is it even significant in the phrase "public place"? According to wilbur a newspaper is not a place because it's not on a map. Then neither would a car, taxi or public transit be a place either. I could ride buses in Vancouver all day long, publicly soliciting females for BJ's for 60 loonies & be perfectly legal in doing so. Street hookers could take their business to the skytrains.
If my GF asks me what "place" she wants to meet & i say at the newspapers in the restuarant, the newpapers are a place even though they are not on any normal map.
Legally, I don't know what is the definition of a ''place''. I don't know if it is defined somewhere in the criminal code. To me, a place as it pertains to criminal justice is an area of three-dimensional space where a person can be physically present. A newspaper or the internet is a place where an article can be present, but it is not a place where a person can be present. They are medias of communication that can manifest themselves in various places, but the person doing the communicating is not in that place and time.
Does this answer that question?
New subsection 213(1.1) targets communications for the purpose of selling sexual services in physical (or “real world”) public places, such as the street. Nonetheless, the offence could capture communications between two or more persons that take place in virtual locations that are publicly accessible, such as on social networking sites like Facebook, if two people communicate with each other for the purposes of exchanging sexual services for consideration on such a site and it is determined that children could reasonably be expected to view that communication.
However, subsection 213(1.1) would not criminalize advertisements for the sale of sexual services because such advertisements do not involve direct communication between two people for the proscribed purpose. The proposed advertising offence (section 286.4), on the other hand, targets advertisements for the sale of sexual services.
http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/protect/protect.pdf
MacKay told the Senate that websites, including Facebook, would be subject to prosecution.
