Moonwaiting trafficking wtf?

[Josephine Grey]

And honestly Andy has always been a sweetheart to me. He helped some of us in extreme situation and I don't think he is a bad person. He just live in a very dangerous world and on a Grey zone of the Law.

Kasey at Plx is a great owner too.

Agency are not completly bad.

 

[sJudeRich73]

The question still remains...Where're the K-Girls?

I read some already found new home...I hope the rest will do so as well.

More power to K-Girls!

 

[aznlover]

Andy (& friends) was caught with 34 GUNS!!! 30 FUCKING 4! DO any of you really think this was JUST about an agency?!? That is mafia level shit!

He was charged with careless storage of firearms, not illegal posession or whatever right? Maybe Andy likes guns, but was "careless" with his storage..

 

[curr3n_c1000]

Now that some time has passed, lets really be honest here. Because he's not black, everyone has sympathy for him.

If he was black everyone would have cheering and scheduling a parade.

 

[Samranchoi]

And honestly Andy has always been a sweetheart to me. He helped some of us in extreme situation and I don't think he is a bad person. He just live in a very dangerous world and on a Grey zone of the Law.

Kasey at Plx is a great owner too.

Agency are not completly bad.

Are you talking about Andy of MW? I didn’t know he ventured outside of the Asian world.

 

[lomotil]

Now that some time has passed, lets really be honest here. Because he's not black, everyone has sympathy for him.

If he was black everyone would have cheering and scheduling a parade.

LOL, if this guy was black, he would have been nailed way way back as there would have been zero tolerance from the beginning. He must have crossed the line with the 34 firearms which bothers LE much more than human trafficking would.

 

[poopypants]

LOL, if this guy was black, he would have been nailed way way back as there would have been zero tolerance from the beginning. He must have crossed the line with the 34 firearms which bothers LE much more than human trafficking would.

Finally an 'if this guy was black comment' with no merit whatsoever. There just has to be an 'if this guy was black' comparison lol. Most llist girls state no black clients, what does that tell you what most are up to when they try to book?

 

[curr3n_c1000]

LOL, if this guy was black, he would have been nailed way way back as there would have been zero tolerance from the beginning. He must have crossed the line with the 34 firearms which bothers LE much more than human trafficking would.

It's just funny to me how many in this thread will over look the guns and marijuana.

If it were me caught in the same situation, you all would be calling for minimum 20 years in prison.

It's crazy out here.

 

[lomotil]

Finally an 'if this guy was black comment' with no merit whatsoever. There just has to be an 'if this guy was black' comparison lol. Most llist girls state no black clients, what does that tell you what most are up to when they try to book?

What you are talking about is a whole different argument which is not related to this thread. Obviously, “merit” has gone way over your head.

 

[beppo]

The arrest was a result of Fintrac notification. I bet they weren’t paying taxes is what did them in. 4mm in the bank, the bank must’ve been filing reports on them going back longer than a yr.

this is the truth... and the articles cut it out, one of them has a link to 'read original', where the Fintrac paragraph seems to be the only one omitted. I would imagine that it was a suspicious bank manager that set this all in motion at the beginning.

 

[cowboy6569]

He was charged with careless storage of firearms, not illegal posession or whatever right? Maybe Andy likes guns, but was "careless" with his storage..

What he was charged with does not matter.

If Charlton Heston (now dead president of the NRA with a huge gun collection) was caught with human trafficking AND $3M of drugs, then on the balance of probabilities, it would be safe to assume that some of that arsenal was used for criminal activity.

By this "maybe" logic, maybe NONE of us here are hobbying either. "Maybe" is meaningless. It's about likelihood. And when you put all these pieces together, the most likely "maybe" is that he wasn't such an angel as we would have liked him to be. They charged him with what they charged him because, in criminal cases, the standard of proof has to strictly be "true beyond a reasonable doubt", not just balance of probabilities. Since he's not getting into wild street shootouts, that proof won't materialize. So that "maybe" will be a good defense in court, but for the rest of us, I think we have to wake up and smell the roses.

I don't mean any disrespect to Andy. Gangsters and gangsta after all.
But, these excuses we're all making for him (myself included), are convenient for ourselves not to admit that a lot of the girls we see are tracked and abused without us having a clue. It's hard to admit that we are (very likely) maybe a contributing factor. That was my whole point.

 

[waynward]

I don't mean any disrespect to Andy. Gangsters and gangsta after all.
But, these excuses we're all making for him (myself included), are convenient for ourselves not to admit that a lot of the girls we see are tracked and abused without us having a clue. It's hard to admit that we are (very likely) maybe a contributing factor. That was my whole point.

I appreciate your perspective and ability to look at another side of the coin as you have some valid points. But it is not just us making excuses for him.

Even the girls I have talked to on the inside have said the same thing to me. Without me suggesting anything. That they wrote the headline in the news that way as Trafficking to get attention, but not really the case. As one girl told me she knows other girls that wanted to actually get into Moonwaiting, but couldn't. And now we have girls that were at that agency that are were working there now at other agencies. That doesn't seem like the behaviour of oppressed trafficked women.

I'm not saying this definitively. Because nobody really knows at this stage and proper legal proceedings need to occur with due process. As who knows maybe there was some edge cases where a girl was trafficked and maybe or maybe not Andy knew about this. As the girls typically go through an agent where there then send to the individual agency.

However even though it's always been the case to take what we read at face value, particularly in the news. Where especially the global events in almost last 2 years, that we all know about this line of discriminating from the headline and what are the actual events are very important.

The general public will always write about Trafficking and Prostitution like they are one and the same with no questions allowed. Implying that nobody ever does this willingly, which is not the case. Yet certainly makes for a more captivating headline.

But either way they had enough other dirt to take Andy down with something one way or the other. Whether that be Cannabis sales, Tax evasion, firearms or advertising of prostitution (Which as per Canada's bill of law passed in 2015 is definitely illegal but yet not the sale of Prostitution ironically).

Anyhow I'm just playing Devil advocate here and trying to look at all sides of the equation. And I believe you are doing so as well.

 

[Samranchoi]

What he was charged with does not matter.

If Charlton Heston (now dead president of the NRA with a huge gun collection) was caught with human trafficking AND $3M of drugs, then on the balance of probabilities, it would be safe to assume that some of that arsenal was used for criminal activity.

By this "maybe" logic, maybe NONE of us here are hobbying either. "Maybe" is meaningless. It's about likelihood. And when you put all these pieces together, the most likely "maybe" is that he wasn't such an angel as we would have liked him to be. They charged him with what they charged him because, in criminal cases, the standard of proof has to strictly be "true beyond a reasonable doubt", not just balance of probabilities. Since he's not getting into wild street shootouts, that proof won't materialize. So that "maybe" will be a good defense in court, but for the rest of us, I think we have to wake up and smell the roses.

I don't mean any disrespect to Andy. Gangsters and gangsta after all.
But, these excuses we're all making for him (myself included), are convenient for ourselves not to admit that a lot of the girls we see are tracked and abused without us having a clue. It's hard to admit that we are (very likely) maybe a contributing factor. That was my whole point.

So there is a good probability that many woman who is a sex provider is trafficked, whether they work for an agency or an Indy? This is an industry issue in Toronto. Then WTF are law enforcement doing about. Every agency and Indy should be brought in and questioned to make sure trafficking is not an issue.

 

[Samranchoi]

I appreciate your perspective and ability to look at another side of the coin as you have some valid points. But it is not just us making excuses for him.

Even the girls I have talked to on the inside have said the same thing to me. Without me suggesting anything. That they wrote the headline in the news that way as Trafficking to get attention, but not really the case. As one girl told me she knows other girls that wanted to actually get into Moonwaiting, but couldn't. And now we have girls that were at that agency that are were working there now at other agencies. That doesn't seem like the behaviour of oppressed trafficked women.

I'm not saying this definitively. Because nobody really knows at this stage and proper legal proceedings need to occur with due process. As who knows maybe there was some edge cases where a girl was trafficked and maybe or maybe not Andy knew about this. As the girls typically go through an agent where there then send to the individual agency.

However even though it's always been the case to take what we read at face value, particularly in the news. Where especially the global events in almost last 2 years, that we all know about this line of discriminating from the headline and what are the actual events are very important.

The general public will always write about Trafficking and Prostitution like they are one and the same with no questions allowed. Implying that nobody ever does this willingly, which is not the case. Yet certainly makes for a more captivating headline.

But either way they had enough other dirt to take Andy down with something one way or the other. Whether that be Cannabis sales, Tax evasion, firearms or advertising of prostitution (Which as per Canada's bill of law passed in 2015 is definitely illegal but yet not the sale of Prostitution ironically).

Anyhow I'm just playing Devil advocate here and trying to look at all sides of the equation. And I believe you are doing so as well.

I was talking with one of the people in the business and it was mentioned they are not concerned. Andy was into the other things mentioned and that was the issue. Who knows for sure but the agencies are all still thriving

 

[Charlemagne]

Can one be charged for seeing a trafficked girl unknowingly?

 

[waynward]

Can one be charged for seeing a trafficked girl unknowingly?

You can be charged for seeing a woman and having sex with her and paying for it. (Trafficked or not)

The law passed in 2015 allows for a woman to offer sex and be paid for it. But the person who pays for it and advertises to be guilty of a crime. Follows the model that they used in Sweden. Which a woman is always viewed the woman as a victim that was coerced or trafficked. Even if she is independant and does this willingly and wasn't coerced by anybody. It's a nice double standard that doesn't make sense. When they passed this law it again used the line that all prostitution is trafficking without question.

Having said that not that many people have been charged under this law. I know there were a few in Alberta a few years ago. And that's where this bill idea originated from a Christian Feminist lady. But Toronto law enforcement went on the media pretty much said they don't have resources to chase this down. AKA got better things to do thankfully. Probably a few on the force got their favourite hotspots to go to. Just like Rob Ford the previous Mayor on Toronto (And brother of our current Ontario Premier Doug Ford) had his favourite ladies to see while smoking crack on camera.

And from what I heard about the Moonwaiting bust. It happened on a Wednesday and police stormed all locations. And the Johns caught with their pants down were given a ticket. I don't know the details of that ticket, but based on hear say it wasn't an arrest or charge. Lucky me I dodged the bullet as I called them the next day the following thursday. Otherwise I might have my mugshot on the news chilling with Andy. I knew something was up immediately when their phone lines weren't responding.

 

[waynward]

So there is a good probability that many woman who is a sex provider is trafficked, whether they work for an agency or an Indy? This is an industry issue in Toronto. Then WTF are law enforcement doing about. Every agency and Indy should be brought in and questioned to make sure trafficking is not an issue.

I'm assuming people are paid off to look the other way. Ie. even in Thailand which is known to sex tourism. It's technically actually illegal for prostitution. But people are paid to look the other way and go on with their talking head hypocrisy of how people are "cracking" down on it. Same with Korea, there were "brothels" right down the street from a police station when I visited. And there are surveillance cameras everywhere. It's called the oldest profession for a reason.

They couldn't even stop it even during Christian times. Which is why you had state sponsored Brothels. I guess they figured it managed mens aggression and also to seperate the good Christian good girls and encourage chastity until marriage.

 

[csmitting]

I appreciate your perspective and ability to look at another side of the coin as you have some valid points. But it is not just us making excuses for him.

Even the girls I have talked to on the inside have said the same thing to me. Without me suggesting anything. That they wrote the headline in the news that way as Trafficking to get attention, but not really the case. As one girl told me she knows other girls that wanted to actually get into Moonwaiting, but couldn't. And now we have girls that were at that agency that are were working there now at other agencies. That doesn't seem like the behaviour of oppressed trafficked women.

I'm not saying this definitively. Because nobody really knows at this stage and proper legal proceedings need to occur with due process. As who knows maybe there was some edge cases where a girl was trafficked and maybe or maybe not Andy knew about this. As the girls typically go through an agent where there then send to the individual agency.

However even though it's always been the case to take what we read at face value, particularly in the news. Where especially the global events in almost last 2 years, that we all know about this line of discriminating from the headline and what are the actual events are very important.

The general public will always write about Trafficking and Prostitution like they are one and the same with no questions allowed. Implying that nobody ever does this willingly, which is not the case. Yet certainly makes for a more captivating headline.

But either way they had enough other dirt to take Andy down with something one way or the other. Whether that be Cannabis sales, Tax evasion, firearms or advertising of prostitution (Which as per Canada's bill of law passed in 2015 is definitely illegal but yet not the sale of Prostitution ironically).

Anyhow I'm just playing Devil advocate here and trying to look at all sides of the equation. And I believe you are doing so as well.

I believe that travelling across a border for sex work meets the definition of trafficking by default. Regardless of how the SWers are treated.

 

[waynward]

I believe that travelling across a border for sex work meets the definition of trafficking by default. Regardless of how the SWers are treated.

My point is all sex work is implied with a play on words that Trafficking is involved. Even when I looked at the history of making prostitution illegal in majority of US in 1910 under the Manns act. It did this with the suggestion all forms of prostitution is trafficking. However in this case they were actually clamping down on illegal border crossings. But the baby was starting to get thrown out with the bathwater to begin coupling those two words together without question.

Followed by prohibition in 1920 this additionally also served as a nice way (at least temporary) of keeping exploring husbands in line when they get sick of their wifes nagging.

Once the blood leaves my lower extremities back to my brain. I research this stuff to justify the words of my baby soldiers. Telling me how they never get out of the house anymore and just want to go outside and play. How they want to meet new people and Korean girls BLAH BLAH BLAH.

 

[Charlemagne]

Imagine that most of the "Johns" were black men, because the consequences would be more serious than just a getting a ticket.