Mike Harris vs. Paul Martin - the next election??

[james t kirk]

Well well well,

Isn't the Canadian political landscape getting interesting these days.

Joe Clark calls it quits (good move joe, don't hang on and look like a fool) and there are very strong indications that Mike Harris may go after the leadership.

Harris has publically stated that he has no desire of leading just the PC party, but he will not rule out leading a united right.

For the record, i am a small L liberal, but i always liked mike and always voted for him. But i also voted for Jean too.

(I have hated the federal PC party ever since they cancelled the arrow (even though i wasn't even born until the sixties). I have never forgiven Diefenbaker for being a small minded prick with no vision. Ever since i saw the show there never was an arrow, i swore i would never vote federally for the PC's.)

But now we have mike.

I think that if he (Harris) could take the reigns of a united right, he would defeat Cretin, errr, Chretien (freudian slip) easily since i beleive that Mike is still very popular in Ontario, and respected elsewhere.

The big problem is, however, would a unification with the CA pull the tories out of the centre and over to the right?

There i draw the line.

I have no use for these bible thumping intolerant red necks from the west.

If this becomes the case, i.e. the PC's under Harris have to move right and start talking about legislating morality, then, sorry mike, i can't vote for you. The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation, or the doctor's office, or the wedding chapels.

The other problem with mike is he doesn't speak french. Like it or not kids, that's a problem. Now Clark managed to learn to parlez francais. Could mike also learn??

Somehow, i doubt it.

Now, we have Paul Martin.......

In my eyes, Chretien would loose to Harris.

But Paul Martin, hmmm, that's a different story.

Martin has the respect of most canadians, bay street, even alberta, and he is a seasoned federal politician who speaks french. Of the two men, Martin strikes me as the more professional, probably the better candidate.

Can you imagine an election with those two candidates?

I really don't know who would win.

Myself in a race between Martin and Harris, i would pick Martin. But Harris verses anyone else, I would pick Harris (provided he hasn't shifted right to bend to the red neck CA)

It's interesting that in the USA the americans fielded two complete idiots in their last election and if this comes to be, Canada stands to field two titans at the same time.

It could get interesting. The americans should take note.

 

[johnny]

harris would not run if martin lead the liberals, it would take away his fiscal conservative advantage, mike is only running if he has a good shot at winning. Second, yes a united right with the pc's and the conservatives would pull the conservatives further to the right. Harris himself is a right wing politician. he is a fiscal conservative rather than a social conserv. He was popular in ontario because people like you who claim to be liberal, voted for him because he steered clear of social conservative issues that often get ca candidates in trouble. While i think harris has social conservative values, he put them aside in order to implement his economic platform.
now i also have a problem with people calling Ca members from the west red neck bible thumping racists. First, the religion a politician chooses to follow should not be a public concern unless the politician themselves brings it out in public. Why are these people "red necks"? because they farm? because they hold family values? canada is a diverse nation and not everyone in the country is like us folks here in toronto. the red neck label just reinforces the snobish attitude ontario is seen to have by the rest of the country.
the solution to uniting the right? the CA has to come a little more to the centre and the conservatives have to come a little more to the right. But either party would still be against lap dances.

 

[Quest4Less]

Anyone but....

I'll vote for anyone who is not Jean.... He is a complete moron and I am amazed that anyone is stupid enough to vote for him after all the lies and B.S. that he and his cronies have been caught at.

Call me a red neck, but I believe there are far too many bleeding heart liberals who would "give away the store" so to speak if we let them.

 

[vidi vici veni]

[snip]For the record, i am a small L liberal, but i always liked mike and always voted for him.[snip]

...(speechless)

vvv

 

[gramage]

Mike Harris has put an asterix on my education (through high school and university I have had more interupted school years then complete ones) so I will vote not mike if he is an option, but Chretien is too old. I'd vote for a Martin led liberals, if not that then a throw away vote like the marijuana or marxist party (not the NDP I have some dignity)

 

[gramage]

Shiek: I remember the NDP years as they drove my father to bankruptcy, without them I'd be getting through university without much hassle money wise (still working lousy ass jobs of course) high cost of living or not.
Harris kept his word I'll give him that, but most of his school reforms (bill 160) were mistakes, everyone knew they were mistakes but he wouldn't alter his plans, thats my beef with Mike, that he'd follow his own plans strait to hell even if he saw the flames right in front of him rather then listen to another persons views. Basically he's just like the NDP just the other side of the political spectrum.

 

[james t kirk]

I call the CA bible thumping rednecks because that is how i think of them.

Preston Manning, Stockwell Day, both are bible thumpers. I believe that Manning was the son of a preacher (and a politician i know) and Day is an ordained minister.

Day was on the campaign trail and several times made references to his christian beliefs. At one campaign stop in St. Catherines an old guy walks up to him and says, "Don't you ever forget your christian ideals" To which Day replied, "No sir I won't
"

Religion is front and center with these guys.

The CA is also notorious for being pro-life, i.e. legislating an end to legalized abortion. I have always been pro choice. I figure what you do about reproduction is no-one's business but yours. I am also for the separation of church and state. I don't believe that the catholic school system should receive provincial funding any more than any other education system based on any religion. There should be one school system in Ontario free to all, with no religous basis what so ever.

I also believe if gays want to get married, it's not my business, knock yourself out. It will only be good for lawyers when they have to get divorces like the rest of us.

The CA has demonstrated time and time again an intolerance to diversity, an intolerance to Quebec in particular (J'aime Quebec), and a small minded attitude that i find frightening. That is why i call them rednecks. I could care less if they are a bunch of farmers or not.

The CA is a party of the extreme right, and i don't like.

Fiscally conservative, socially liberal, that's me.

I never got the impression that mike was socially conservative and just knew enough to put it aside. Tony Clement, and Jim Flarety (spelling) were two tories running for the nomination a few months ago who made no bones about their social conservatism. Mind you, they lost.

I would vote for Martin over harris because i think he is the better man, but if the liberals field Chretien again, i will vote for anyone who has a shot of defeating my MP in my riding.

I just thik that if the PC's field harris, and the liberals don't toss out chretien, then harris will win easily.

cheers

dear vvv...

sorry, i just always liked mike...

He did what he said he was going to do.

I know i am a bit of a lefty on many fronts, but Harris never did anyting to piss me off.

And for that matter, i always respected Bob Rae too. I thought he was a decent human being. My only complaint with bob was his fiscal policy of spending like a mad man, and running up deficits (mind you harris ran deficits for the first years of his mandate too). As far as his (Rae's) labour laws went, he was more in line with my way of thinking than harris ever was.

Garamage...

Don't cry the financial woes too much my friend. When i was in university, i never had enough dough to frequent massage parlours, strip joints, and now SP's i read.

More power to you buddy, but please don't cry the "I am so broke and my education costs so much blues" when you have the kind of spare change it takes to partake in the hobby.

Life is rough eh.

 

[gramage]

not crying for me, it was my dad who went broke after all, I lived with my mom mostly so I did fine.

 

[johnny]

James T kirk, I cant beleive how you could use someones religious beliefs against them, politically. Is it wrong to have christian values? when the guy told stockwell to not forget his christian values, what was he supposed to say, no i think i will forget my christian values so i do better politically? The reason people have a view of the CA as intolerant and aginst diversity is because the liberals want you to think that so you dont vote for them. The ca is not against diversity but is against granting special privliges based on someones race. they are also against granting quebec special privliges, why is quebec any better than any other province in canada? I too, have some left values but i like the CA because i am a libertarian with a bit of an anarchist side. the ca advocates less government involvement in our day to day lives. i am for equality thats why i agree with the ca on multi cultural issues.
but, attack the policies all you like. when you say you dont like a party because people in the party have religious values your argument has no credibility.
as for the seperation of church and state i agree with you, but ask chretien if he thinks that seperate funding for catholic schools should be eliminated. his answer would be a NO, because he is a catholic himself, but we dont hear people attacking chretien for his religious beliefs.

 

[gramage]

I agree generally attackign the religous beliefs of the CA is wrong, but with Stockwell there's some validity to it, as he was one of the people responsible for his home town going fundamentalist, getting rid of public schools and making everything hardcore religous (pentecostal I believe). I'm am against extremists for any political system, the answer is never at an extreme, it is always in the middle.

 

[gamesman]

I really think it is too early to decide on who will be an effective future prime minister for Canada. Despite what some feel about Jean Chrétien, he has retained the confidence of Canadians through three elections. Chances are, he will decide to retire before the next election.

Several of the 'great white hopes' in the past have proven not to have 'the right stuff' to lead the country. Examples include John Turner, Kim Campbell and Stockwell Day. Although Paul Martin may be a capable and experienced politician, he may not be an effective charismatic leader than can inspire Canadians. Tomorrow's most effective leaders will be dependent on the issues that face Canadians as the next election approaches, and may not yet be household names.

 

[Gumby]

Harris?

To those who support Harris, I have only one word: Walkerton.

 

[james t kirk]

Never listen to the union leaders, they dont know what real life is really about.

He he, that's a good one....

I put to you sheik (friend) that your average union leader knows more what life is about than your average born with a silver spoon in his mouth rich kid who has never worked a day in his life.

I view the unions as a necessary force to guard against exploitation of working people.

It's a tug of war that hopefully ends up somewhere in the middle.

 

[Toad-O-Line]

Re: Harris?

To those who support Harris, I have only one word: Walkerton.

What did Harris have to do with Walkerton? Walkerton was not the result of cut-backs, it was the result of some incompetent/lazy workers who didn't give a shit about their job or the public's safety.

Harris is the only politician that I have seen that has stuck to his promises. He has not given in to the special interest groups. He has made the tough decisions that needed to be made.

As for the Liberal Party.....Trudeau dug our grave we call a debt & his finance buddy Chretien has been digging it even deeper. And yes I have read that the Liberal Government has had a couple of years of balanced books, but the real truth to that scenario will be known once they are replaced. After all, look at the waste of funds that have been contributed to the Human Resources dpt, Advertising campaigns, etc.

 

[Gumby]

Walkerton Was The Result Of Cutbacks

Walkerton was the result of cutbacks. There should have been someone watching these people. Every employee I know has a boss watching over them in order to make sure they are doing their jobs. At any rate, if Harris runs for PM he will win by a landslide because most people think like him.

 

[pblues]

Harris was the best thing to happen to Ontario since Bill Davis. Should Harris decide to run federally, he'll be the best thing to happen to Canada since Diefenbaker. (I know bad spelling)

Trudeau sucked... enough said. He was the beginning of the end.

Mulrooney... should have been more forthcoming. He had a habit of stalking around like the grim reaper with a smile. No he didn't ruin the country. Blame Pierre for that. When Mulrooney left, the Conservatives should have elected Garth Turner as their leader instead of Kim Campbell. The ditz dug a huge hole for the party to crawl out of.

Cretien... the laughing stock of world politics. Presidents and Prime Ministers have been shot for far less. My favorite news clip: Cretien receiving a pie in the face. I taped that and will probably be using it as my screensaver at home.

Harris cleaned up the mess that Uncle Bob (Ray) created. In fact Ray smartened up in the end when he started enforcing the days off without pay.

As far as the unions go, unfortunately the members are never told the full true story. They are brainwashed into thinking the current government in power has it out for them. Harris didn't runin education or health care, the hospitals and school boards never learned how to manage their money properly.

 

[gramage]

pblues: you are not seriously blaming the collapse of the conservative party on Kim Cambell? God could have come down to earth to lead the PC party and they wouldn't have gotten official party status. Mulroony was a putz that made all these cuts necessary, and added the damn GST, because of him I'd have trouble voting for the PC's on gereral principle (if Chretien still leads the liberals I'll have to maybe)

 

[Gumby]

Harris Lied

Harris lied big time. Do you remember his lines "We won't close hospitals", "We won't remove money from the classroom", "We won't fire nurses" etc.. etc..

 

[Gumby]

Trudeau

Trudeau was a great leader who could have taken on any of these political intellectual midgets with his hands tied behind his back(I do admit though he had a problem with interpersonal relationships). At the risk of stirring the pot more I would like to recommend an admittedly very unpopular view. We really have to pay our politicians substantially more than they are getting. Politics for a number of reasons is not a very attractive career. If we want to attract politicians of Trudeau's calibre we are going to have to make politics more attractive;one way is through their salary and perks. $ 70,000 a year is really not alot when you consider the responsibility they have.

 

[Toad-O-Line]

Re: Walkerton Was The Result Of Cutbacks

Walkerton was the result of cutbacks. There should have been someone watching these people. Every employee I know has a boss watching over them in order to make sure they are doing their jobs. At any rate, if Harris runs for PM he will win by a landslide because most people think like him.

Cutbacks!? Are you serious?

Christ, my company had to do some serious cutbacks but it didn't affect our product/service.

These clowns were the bosses of that facility. They were hired to do a job and failed miserably.

What happens if someone get's shot at a 7-11? Is that the fault of Harris because he didn't have someone over-looking the store? Is it the fault of Chretien because of his lack of gun-control? Is it the fault of Lastman because he didn't enforce bullet proof glass?

Walkerton would have happened whether there were cutbacks or not - Even if Harris had implemented extra staff, Walkerton still would have happened - These assholes were in charge of making the final decision.