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[Valcazar]

Who built Rome

Mostly slaves.
I guess it depends on how metaphorical you want that question to be, though.

Who built the roads they are famous for

The army.

Was it built in a day

No.

Why did Rome fall.

Gonna have to ask for clarification.
Do you just mean the main sack of the city in the 400s?
Or do you mean "The Roman Empire"?

No need to get verbose, these aren’t the ivory towers of academia, nor do we have thousands of pages of encyclopedias. Try to to dumb it down.

Kept it super simple for you.
The last one is tricky because "Why did Rome fall" is making a lot of assumptions so I need to know what you are actually asking.

 

[Not getting younger]

Mostly slaves.
I guess it depends on how metaphorical you want that question to be, though.



The army.



No.



Gonna have to ask for clarification.
Do you just mean the main sack of the city in the 400s?
Or do you mean "The Roman Empire"?



Kept it super simple for you.
The last one is tricky because "Why did Rome fall" is making a lot of assumptions so I need to know what you are actually asking.

So far, so good, for lack of better words. « Peons »

you know what I mean. When people say the fall of Rome. Without a bunch of words. What are the common reasons given.

 

[Valcazar]

So far, so good, for lack of better words. « Peons »

Oversimplified, but if you like.

you know what I mean. When people say the fall of Rome. Without a bunch of words. What are the common reasons given.

OK, so basically the lead up to the resignation of the last emperor? (I assume you are talking the Empire and not just the sack of the city.)
The reasons commonly given tend to be "Roman decadence" , "Too much reliance on immigrants", and "Barbarian invasion".

But anyone giving you a simple one-factor answer shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[Not getting younger]

Oversimplified, but if you like.



OK, so basically the lead up to the resignation of the last emperor? (I assume you are talking the Empire and not just the sack of the city.)
The reasons commonly given tend to be "Roman decadence" , "Too much reliance on immigrants", and "Barbarian invasion".

But anyone giving you a simple one-factor answer shouldn't be taken seriously.

call them peons, surfs, commoners. Call them dirty jobs and blue collar workers. Call them what you will. A rose by any other name.

You’re forgetting farmers and taxation. Is there a reason for that??? Where’s that lofty academic prowess of yours. And what exactly did roads do for Rome and Roman Empire.

How excessive government

With the collapse of the money economy, the normal system of taxation also broke down. This forced the state to directly appropriate whatever resources it needed wherever they could be found. Food and cattle, for example, were requisitioned directly from farmers

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1994/11/cj14n2-7.pdf

Economic reasons for the fall of Rome

Taxation could be in kind, rather than coinage, which required local bureaucracies to make efficient use of perishables, and might be expected to produce reduced revenue for the seat of the Roman Empire. Emperors deliberately overtaxed the senatorial (or ruling) class in order to render it powerless

How Did Taxes Lead to the Fall of Rome?

Rome fell or changed partly as a result of economic policies of rapacious emperors and over-taxation. These policies created inflation and feudalism.

www.thoughtco.com

.

things that make a person

Even as Rome was under attack from outside forces, it was also crumbling from within thanks to a severe financial crisis. Constant wars and overspending had significantly lightened imperial coffers, and oppressive taxation and inflation had widened the gap between rich and poor.

8 Reasons Why Rome Fell | HISTORY

Find out why one of history's most legendary empires finally came crashing down.

www.history.com

I thought you were an academic and learned history buff? Also “interesting” you’re trying to engage in intellectual semantics. If the “fall of Rome” is good enough for historians, it’s good enough for me.

 

[Valcazar]

call them peons, surfs, commoners. Call them dirty jobs and blue collar workers. Call them what you will. A rose by any other name.

You're dumping a LOT of people into that bucket though.
But "construction is done by people who do construction" is a bit of a tautology.

You’re forgetting farmers and taxation.

Farmers and taxation caused the fall of Rome?
Or farmers and taxation built Rome?

Which are you asking?

Is there a reason for that??? Where’s that lofty academic prowess of yours.

You specifically asked me to keep it simple, and what reasons are commonly given.
So I kept it simple and stuck to the answers you are commonly going to get.

When you start going into tax revenue and whether or not the Vandal take over of North Africa fucked with it, you've started to get into some weedy academic places.
Fuck, you just said that it was academic when you asked why I left it out.

And what exactly did roads do for Rome and Roman Empire.

A lot.
Military transport, obviously. (That's why they were originally built.)
But once a road exists, it becomes a trade way, moving goods and people.
Administration, communication, and cultural dissemination as well of course.

Infrastructure is important.

Your post gets a little jumbled after this, but I'll do my best to sort it as I respond.

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1994/11/cj14n2-7.pdf

Yes, the Cato institute is always going to blame taxes and the lack of free market enterprise for everything.
Good catch.

Economic reasons for the fall of Rome

How Did Taxes Lead to the Fall of Rome?

Rome fell or changed partly as a result of economic policies of rapacious emperors and over-taxation. These policies created inflation and feudalism.

www.thoughtco.com

.

things that make a person

8 Reasons Why Rome Fell | HISTORY

Find out why one of history's most legendary empires finally came crashing down.

www.history.com

Exactly, even these quickie "for the internet" bullet lists put down numerous factors.
Just as I said, anyone giving you a simple one-factor answer shouldn't be taken seriously.
Even this history.com article knows that.

I thought you were an academic and learned history buff?

Again, you specifically asked me to not go academic and to keep it simple.
Now you want to attack my answer because it isn't academic enough?
That's just lazy.

Also “interesting” you’re trying to engage in intellectual semantics. If the “fall of Rome” is good enough for historians, it’s good enough for me.

"Fall of Rome" isn't good enough for historians.
That's the whole point.
There are whole currents of historical thought that thinks even saying Rome fell at all is a bad way of describing it.

 

[Not getting younger]

That’s a lot of word salad.
would you consider blue collar types, and middle class types…..commoners?

And far as challenging your opinions goes. Why not. That’s all you do is try to pick others apart. You’ve admitted that

Fall of Rome isn’t good enough? What do you call those links up there?

And given virtually everything ever written about it mentioned taxation and economic collapse. Farmers and “commoners”…Why didn’t you?

And strange too you glossed over this

Even as Rome was under attack from outside forces, it was also crumbling from within thanks to a severe financial crisis. Constant wars and overspending had significantly lightened imperial coffers, and oppressive taxation and inflation had widened the gap between rich and poor.

here’s another

7 Reasons Why Rome Fell

www.worldatlas.com

 

[Valcazar]

That’s a lot of word salad.
would you consider blue collar types, and middle class types…..commoners?

Sure.
I'm not the one who called the "peons".
And I wouldn't consider slaves "commoners" - not really an accurate description.

And far as challenging your opinions goes. Why not. That’s all you do is try to pick others apart. You’ve admitted that

But you specifically put rules down and then changed them.
So what's the point?

Fall of Rome isn’t good enough? What do you call those links up there?

Not links by historians.
They are for the general public.

And given virtually everything ever written about it mentioned taxation and economic collapse. Farmers and “commoners”…Why didn’t you?

Because that's not what people usually point to when they talk about the fall of rome.
They want to talk about moral issues.
Forgive me for assuming you did to.

Yes, economic issues were involved, obviously.
There's also the question of if the economic collapse is a symptom or a cause, of course, but then we get into academics which you don't want to dig into and the fact that, as I've said repeatedly, these things are multi-causal.
I presume you aren't silly enough to just say "there was economic collapse and so Rome fell" or "people were overtaxed so Rome fell".

And strange too you glossed over this


here’s another

7 Reasons Why Rome Fell

www.worldatlas.com

Yes.
Multi-causal, like I said.

I'm not sure why repeatedly making my point for me is something you are spending effort on.

Anyway, since we agree that Rome had commoners and we agree that Rome fell for multiple reasons, do you have a point you wanted to take this side route?
We agree, so what's the issue here?

 

[Not getting younger]

I asked you to use simple words and not to get verbose. who served in the Roman armies, built roads and infrastructure that made the elites rich ( and fast travel for grunts) , acted as foot soldiers and cannon fodder and more…

The elites on their arses in Rome?

I didn’t put “rules” down. You were asked to dumb it down. Pretend you’re writing for the Toronto Sun. Most people, sapiophiles and Neanderthals alike think of what when they hear “ the fall of Rome”?

Regarding surfs, peons, commoners and dirty jobs, and fiefs and fiefdoms, feudalism, farmers and cannon fodder. Economic collapse, taxation, and farmers abandoning farms/migrating for greener pastures (let’s call that modern day Capital bleed) . I asked for the commonly listed causes.

clearly given the above meant for commoner links. It’s mentioned ALL the TIME.

Yet………………..

and isn’t this odd. If I wasn’t a commoner I’d swear your doing all you can to avoid it.

Even as Rome was under attack from outside forces, it was also crumbling from within thanks to a severe financial crisis. Constant wars and overspending had significantly lightened imperial coffers, and oppressive taxation and inflation had widened the gap between rich and poor.

 

[Frankfooter]

I asked you to use simple words and not to get verbose. who served in the Roman armies, built roads and infrastructure that made the elites rich ( and fast travel for grunts) , acted as foot soldiers and cannon fodder and more…

The elites on their arses in Rome?

I didn’t put “rules” down. You were asked to dumb it down. Pretend you’re writing for the Toronto Sun. Most people, sapiophiles and Neanderthals alike think of what when they hear “ the fall of Rome”?

Regarding surfs, peons, commoners and dirty jobs, and fiefs and fiefdoms, feudalism, farmers and cannon fodder. Economic collapse, taxation, and farmers abandoning farms/migrating for greener pastures (let’s call that modern day Capital bleed) . I asked for the commonly listed causes.

clearly given the above meant for commoner links. It’s mentioned ALL the TIME.

Yet………………..

and isn’t this odd. If I wasn’t a commoner I’d swear your doing all you can to avoid it.

Do you really have a problem reading and comprehending that sentence?

 

[Valcazar]

I asked you to use simple words and not to get verbose.

Which I did.
That it was too simple for you, fine.
Better to start low and then add, given what you were requesting.

who served in the Roman armies

You didn't ask that.
Is this something you want to get into?

built roads and infrastructure that made the elites rich ( and fast travel for grunts) , acted as foot soldiers and cannon fodder and more…

The elites on their arses in Rome?

Wait, are you now saying everything was built by the army?
Or are you just saying "people other than the elite did the physical labor"?
Which... duh.

I didn’t put “rules” down. You were asked to dumb it down. Pretend you’re writing for the Toronto Sun.

I did dumb it down.
(Since when is the Toronto Sun part of this conversation, btw?)

You think I dumbed it down too much for you, fine.
But that you are SO MAD that I did what you asked is kind of hilarious.

Most people, sapiophiles and Neanderthals alike think of what when they hear “ the fall of Rome”?

Most people think "you know, when Rome fell" and have no idea what they mean.
It means that the Western Roman Empire wasn't Rome anymore.

What they actually mean by that can vary wildly, but it is a general sense of "Rome fell".
We're talking about a couple of hundred years of time here and people aren't even referring to the same thing when they think about it.

Which is why, of course, the reasons are multifactoral and not one thing - even if people often want to just put one simple cause to it all.
Which is, again, something we both seem to agree on, since you keep linking to articles listing numerous reasons why "Rome fell".

I asked for the commonly listed causes.

Which I gave you.
I kept it short and over-arching, but those tend to be the commonly cited reasons if you ask your average person what caused Rome to fall.
They are over simple, and anyone insisting it is just one is misinformed, but that is the basic story you are going to get.
"Roman decadence" , "Too much reliance on immigrants", and "Barbarian invasion".
But if you want "The Empire was mismanaged" as a general answer, I can put that on the list.
But people usually want to talk about what caused the mismanagement, which is why "too much reliance on immigrants" and "Roman decadence" get mentioned so often.


This isn't what people who study Rome and Roman history are going to give you - they are going to be much more specific.
But you asked me to dumb it down for you and I did.

Regarding surfs, peons, commoners and dirty jobs, and fiefs and fiefdoms, feudalism, farmers and cannon fodder. Economic collapse, taxation, and farmers abandoning farms/migrating for greener pastures (let’s call that modern day Capital bleed).

Now, if you are asking specifically for the commonly given causes for the economic struggles of the Empire, that's something else.
But the moment you are getting into that, you are asking for it not to be particularly dumbed down, and you are also asking about details of a specific factor (or rather, several factors) involved in what is going on.

I'm not even sure if that's what you're asking, since you are talking about surfs and fiefs and feudalism here.

clearly given the above meant for commoner links. It’s mentioned ALL the TIME.

Yet………………..

and isn’t this odd. If I wasn’t a commoner I’d swear your doing all you can to avoid it.

So acknowledging economic issues were of course involved is avoiding it?
I see.

So we agree it was multi-causal (you aren't arguing finance and taxation issues are the only reason Rome fell, I hope).
We agree economic issues were involved. (The Vandals taking North Africa completely fucked the revenue stream of the Western Empire, and that's not even getting into the other issues.)

Why are you so hopping mad if we basically agree here?