Distance. Trains make sense for longer distances. Subways make sense for shorter distances, and buses/streetcars for the shortest. Trains also require land for the tracks (and few people want a new train line passing by their house).
John Tory's budget to boost taxes 3.2%.
- Thread starter boodog
- Start date
They said the same thing about the Sheppard line. How's ridership doing there after all these years?Y...
Subway in Scarborough? I honestly think when we build it people will come. Yes it has good potential to be the most efficient way to move people in the near future Scarborough.
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A DOWNTOWN relief line makes sense because you have the residential and commercial density to support it. A Rathburn Road in Etobicoke subway relief line does not make sense because there will never be enough volume to support it unless we are suddenly going to bulldoze a whole lot of single family homes.Yes I do think DRL subway is the most efficient way to move people.
Not the snake-oil salesman John Tory's Smart Track.
Subway in Scarborough? I honestly think when we build it people will come. Yes it has good potential to be the most efficient way to move people in the near future Scarborough.
Much better potential than the Greg Sorbara Extension to Nowhere (or Walmart in Vaughan).
The same problem exists for Scarborough; I don't see the city expropriating single family homes to make way for high density buildings. The problem with the Scarbourough subway in it's current form is that it does not come anywhere close to serving people in high rise buildings so they would still need to take a bus just to get to the subway line.
We honestly won't know how either the Scarbourough or Vaughan lines will do until we've spent tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars. Meanwhile, we'll need to start hanging off the sides of the subways, and streetcars like they do in India.
I do have to admit that Tory is right that the reason we don't have proper transit in this city is the back and forth about ideas. We start building a subway on Eglinton, which Harris cancels and fills in the hole. Why he could not have left the finished construction alone is beyond me. We start on an LRT plan and Ford cancels it. Ford proposed a subway plan and Chow threatens to cancel it. We've already spent huge amounts of money on cancelled projects.
Development increased a lot along the Sheppard line, but the problem with the Sheppard line is that it isn't connected at the other end. A transit design isn't effective if it doesn't actually do what people want it to do..They said the same thing about the Sheppard line. How's ridership doing there after all these years?
Imagine the YUS line stopping at Rosedale instead of going to Bloor... Would that be an effective connection?
The Sheppard line ends at the DVP/Fairview Mall - who the hell is jumping off the DVP to park in a mall and take the subway west then south? It fails because people don't do crap like that. A properly designed subway in that area wouldn't be ineffective.
Furthermore, how can the Sheppard subway be judged as it exists now? It was promised to go to Scarborough Town Centre! It's being judged when it 1/3 finished?! Somehow that's evidence that it doesn't function? If a car was 1/3 built would anyone try to drive it and then complain when it didn't work?
Who here goes into a restaurant, orders a chicken 1/3 done, and then complains about the state of the chicken and how it's not a good meal?
And where does this scarbs line connect to?Development increased a lot along the Sheppard line, but the problem with the Sheppard line is that it isn't connected at the other end. ...
I'm all in favour of a real transit plan. A DRL, and extension North to the burbs and York U, northern loop connection from the west end of the Bloor line then going up and across to scarborough to connect out there (including the shep line east of yonge). I also have no problem paying for it.
That said, boo's suggestion that Ford's little scarborough spur on its own makes economic sense is silly.
The areas where the subway is being built won't grow enough to make it worthwhile during its entire operational lifespan. Every bit of it will be replaced before there is sufficient ridership.Very myopic POV. Toronto is a rapidly growing metropolis and the most efficient way to move people is by subway. This is not an opinion, this is an objective fact clearly demonstrated from Moscow to New York. The fact that we spent four decades sitting on our hands instead of tunneling, is criminal. The results of that stupidity are easy to see.
It is true that development (and property values) increased a lot along the Sheppard line, but people did not choose to take it. Miller almost mothballed the line at one point. The real stupidity of the line is that the government chose to build it to appease Lastman and they knew they were never going to build the entire thing.Development increased a lot along the Sheppard line, but the problem with the Sheppard line is that it isn't connected at the other end. A transit design isn't effective if it doesn't actually do what people want it to do..
Imagine the YUS line stopping at Rosedale instead of going to Bloor... Would that be an effective connection?
The Sheppard line ends at the DVP/Fairview Mall - who the hell is jumping off the DVP to park in a mall and take the subway west then south? It fails because people don't do crap like that. A properly designed subway in that area wouldn't be ineffective.
Furthermore, how can the Sheppard subway be judged as it exists now? It was promised to go to Scarborough Town Centre! It's being judged when it 1/3 finished?! Somehow that's evidence that it doesn't function? If a car was 1/3 built would anyone try to drive it and then complain when it didn't work?
Who here goes into a restaurant, orders a chicken 1/3 done, and then complains about the state of the chicken and how it's not a good meal?
If anything, the subway should have run west to connect the Yonge to the University line.
The plan as its laid out now has the scarborough subway ending at Sheppard, as you correctly infer, a dead end.And where does this scarbs line connect to?
I'm all in favour of a real transit plan. A DRL, and extension North to the burbs and York U, northern loop connection from the west end of the Bloor line then going up and across to scarborough to connect out there (including the shep line east of yonge). I also have no problem paying for it.
That said, boo's suggestion that Ford's little scarborough spur on its own makes economic sense is silly.
I would hope that it would be connected to the Sheppard subway line. That is my hope.
Everyone has the best intentions but nobody wants to pay for it (read: taxes). The government doesn't use our money effectively (read: Liberal gas plant scandal, conservative F-35, etc.). Our tax money could go far if it wasn't being wasted.
I agree that it should have run west, but it should go as far as the airport. Running east to UoT/centennial college/zoo is important.It is true that development (and property values) increased a lot along the Sheppard line, but people did not choose to take it. Miller almost mothballed the line at one point. The real stupidity of the line is that the government chose to build it to appease Lastman and they knew they were never going to build the entire thing.
If anything, the subway should have run west to connect the Yonge to the University line.
I think that was the original intent of the Eglinton subway, but we all know what happened to that one.I agree that it should have run west, but it should go as far as the airport. Running east to UoT/centennial college/zoo is important.
Fix your "thinking inside the basketcase" post.Norm Kelly's proposal for the 2014 budget was 1.75% + 0.5% for the subway which is what was approved. Mayor Rob Ford objected the proposal package.
By that you mean looking at facts?Fix your "thinking inside the basketcase" post.
Your boy lied outright and raised taxes.
By that you mean looking at facts?
Your boy lied outright and raised taxes.
Well your "inside the basketcase" memory fails you again.
Let me refresh your memory from my post #37 and post#51:-
City of Toronto: previous City budgets http://www.toronto.ca/city_budget/budget_summaries.htm
2011 Budget
For 2011, Toronto City Council approved an Operating Budget that is balanced, includes no major service cuts, and does not include increases to property tax rates. The City's total 2011 budget for Operating, Capital and Rate Supported services is $13.326 billion.
The 2011 tax supported 2011 Operating Budget is $9.383 billion and is 38 per cent funded by property tax revenues totalling $3.579 billion. The budget maintained services at 2010 levels.
Estimates of capital spending for the tax supported 10-year 2011-2020 Capital Plan is a total of $12.755 billion. Capital expenditures to maintain and renew the City's substantive infrastructure total $7.270 billion, representing 57.4 per cent of the total 2011- 2020 Capital Budget and Plan.
No Tax Increase.
2012 Budget
Major advancements in achieving fiscal sustainability were made in the 2012 Budget. By bringing expenses more in line with City revenues, City Council reduced the City's reliance on one-time revenues from $327 million to $102 million.
On January 17, 2012, City Council approved a balanced tax-supported 2012 Operating Budget of $9.4 billion and a 2012-2021 Capital Budget and Plan of $14.8 billion. The 2012 Operating Budget includes a 2.5 per cent property tax increase for residents, a 0.83 per cent tax increase for businesses and a 10-cent fare increase for TTC customers.
The 2012 Budget marks the first decline in gross expenditures since Toronto's amalgamation with a $20 million decrease.
Tax increase was needed to reduce the City's reliance on one-time revenues from $327 million to $102 million.
2013 Budget
City Council approved a gross Operating Budget of $10.858 billion and $3.713 billion net for 2013; and a 2013 - 2022 Capital Budget and Plan of $24.473 billion.
The challenges faced in 2013 included eliminating an opening operating budget pressure of $465 million, reducing its reliance on one-time/unsustainable revenues to balance the budget, bringing spending in line with revenue growth and moderating capital financing pressures.
As part of its balancing strategy to address the operating budget pressure, the City reduced spending through savings achieved from implementing service efficiency measures and cost reductions while maintaining core services that residents value. The City also maximized revenue sources, reduced the impact of capital financing, and implemented a moderate municipal property tax increase (2.00% residential and a 0.67% non-residential) and a Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) fare increase of 5 cents, which are in line with inflation.
Tax increase was needed to eliminate an opening operating budget pressure of $465 million and to reduce its reliance on one-time/unsustainable revenues to balance the budget.
2014 Budget
Norm Kelly's proposal for the 2014 budget was 1.75% + 0.5% for the subway which is what was approved. Mayor Rob Ford objected the proposal package.
You do realize that your own post disagrees with you. 2.5% tax hike, 2.0% tax hike, 2.25% tax hike.Well your "inside the basketcase" memory fails you again.
...
And BTW,
TORONTO - Mayor Rob Ford slammed the 2014 budget as the "worst budget he's ever seen" despite the fact he still got the 1.75% tax hike he wanted out of the executive committee.
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/23/mayor-rob-ford-budget-is-worst-ever
Karen Stintz was on the news talking about the budget, she noted that the cost of fuel has dropped and a big percentage of the TTC budget is fuel, so there should be no need to increase fares. There is a $89 million shortfall in the operating budget and the city intends to borrow money to make up the difference. The budget is not balanced, the city will be running an operating deficit. People are starting to clue in that they are now paying costs for garbage pick up, and that this budget was a costly one for the taxpayers.
You do realize that your own post disagrees with you. 2.5% tax hike, 2.0% tax hike, 2.25% tax hike.
And BTW,
TORONTO - Mayor Rob Ford slammed the 2014 budget as the "worst budget he's ever seen" despite the fact he still got the 1.75% tax hike he wanted out of the executive committee.
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/23/mayor-rob-ford-budget-is-worst-ever
City of Toronto: previous City budgets http://www.toronto.ca/city_budget/budget_summaries.htm
2011 Budget
For 2011, Toronto City Council approved an Operating Budget that is balanced, includes no major service cuts, and does not include increases to property tax rates. The City's total 2011 budget for Operating, Capital and Rate Supported services is $13.326 billion.
The 2011 tax supported 2011 Operating Budget is $9.383 billion and is 38 per cent funded by property tax revenues totalling $3.579 billion. The budget maintained services at 2010 levels.
Estimates of capital spending for the tax supported 10-year 2011-2020 Capital Plan is a total of $12.755 billion. Capital expenditures to maintain and renew the City's substantive infrastructure total $7.270 billion, representing 57.4 per cent of the total 2011- 2020 Capital Budget and Plan.
No Tax Increase.
2012 Budget
Major advancements in achieving fiscal sustainability were made in the 2012 Budget. By bringing expenses more in line with City revenues, City Council reduced the City's reliance on one-time revenues from $327 million to $102 million.
On January 17, 2012, City Council approved a balanced tax-supported 2012 Operating Budget of $9.4 billion and a 2012-2021 Capital Budget and Plan of $14.8 billion. The 2012 Operating Budget includes a 2.5 per cent property tax increase for residents, a 0.83 per cent tax increase for businesses and a 10-cent fare increase for TTC customers.
The 2012 Budget marks the first decline in gross expenditures since Toronto's amalgamation with a $20 million decrease.
Tax increase was needed to reduce the City's reliance on one-time revenues from $327 million to $102 million.
2013 Budget
City Council approved a gross Operating Budget of $10.858 billion and $3.713 billion net for 2013; and a 2013 - 2022 Capital Budget and Plan of $24.473 billion.
The challenges faced in 2013 included eliminating an opening operating budget pressure of $465 million, reducing its reliance on one-time/unsustainable revenues to balance the budget, bringing spending in line with revenue growth and moderating capital financing pressures.
As part of its balancing strategy to address the operating budget pressure, the City reduced spending through savings achieved from implementing service efficiency measures and cost reductions while maintaining core services that residents value. The City also maximized revenue sources, reduced the impact of capital financing, and implemented a moderate municipal property tax increase (2.00% residential and a 0.67% non-residential) and a Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) fare increase of 5 cents, which are in line with inflation.
Tax increase was needed to eliminate an opening operating budget pressure of $465 million and to reduce its reliance on one-time/unsustainable revenues to balance the budget.
2014 Budget
Norm Kelly's proposal for the 2014 budget was 1.75% + 0.5% for the subway which is what was approved. Mayor Rob Ford objected the proposal package.
Are you seriously trying to say that Ford administration didn't raise taxes in 2012, 2013, and 2014?City of Toronto: previous City budgets http://www.toronto.ca/city_budget/budget_summaries.htm
...
City of Toronto: previous City budgets http://www.toronto.ca/city_budget/budget_summaries.htmAre you seriously trying to say that Ford administration didn't raise taxes in 2012, 2013, and 2014?
2011 Budget
For 2011, Toronto City Council approved an Operating Budget that is balanced, includes no major service cuts, and does not include increases to property tax rates. The City's total 2011 budget for Operating, Capital and Rate Supported services is $13.326 billion.
The 2011 tax supported 2011 Operating Budget is $9.383 billion and is 38 per cent funded by property tax revenues totalling $3.579 billion. The budget maintained services at 2010 levels.
Estimates of capital spending for the tax supported 10-year 2011-2020 Capital Plan is a total of $12.755 billion. Capital expenditures to maintain and renew the City's substantive infrastructure total $7.270 billion, representing 57.4 per cent of the total 2011- 2020 Capital Budget and Plan.
No Tax Increase.
2012 Budget
Major advancements in achieving fiscal sustainability were made in the 2012 Budget. By bringing expenses more in line with City revenues, City Council reduced the City's reliance on one-time revenues from $327 million to $102 million.
On January 17, 2012, City Council approved a balanced tax-supported 2012 Operating Budget of $9.4 billion and a 2012-2021 Capital Budget and Plan of $14.8 billion. The 2012 Operating Budget includes a 2.5 per cent property tax increase for residents, a 0.83 per cent tax increase for businesses and a 10-cent fare increase for TTC customers.
The 2012 Budget marks the first decline in gross expenditures since Toronto's amalgamation with a $20 million decrease.
Tax increase was needed to reduce the City's reliance on one-time revenues from $327 million to $102 million.
2013 Budget
City Council approved a gross Operating Budget of $10.858 billion and $3.713 billion net for 2013; and a 2013 - 2022 Capital Budget and Plan of $24.473 billion.
The challenges faced in 2013 included eliminating an opening operating budget pressure of $465 million, reducing its reliance on one-time/unsustainable revenues to balance the budget, bringing spending in line with revenue growth and moderating capital financing pressures.
As part of its balancing strategy to address the operating budget pressure, the City reduced spending through savings achieved from implementing service efficiency measures and cost reductions while maintaining core services that residents value. The City also maximized revenue sources, reduced the impact of capital financing, and implemented a moderate municipal property tax increase (2.00% residential and a 0.67% non-residential) and a Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) fare increase of 5 cents, which are in line with inflation.
Tax increase was needed to eliminate an opening operating budget pressure of $465 million and to reduce its reliance on one-time/unsustainable revenues to balance the budget.
2014 Budget
Norm Kelly's proposal for the 2014 budget was 1.75% + 0.5% for the subway which is what was approved. Mayor Rob Ford objected the proposal package.
So, from your quote, you are violently agreeing with us that Ford repeatedly raised taxes. Moreover you haven't even disputed that the tax rises we face now are in large measure due to Ford's Scarborough subway boondoggle. You tried to palm it off on John Tory for not cancelling it, but that doesn't save you from essentially admitting that Ford fucked it up.
