"Israel, Similar to Apartheid": Ekos Canada Poll

Frankfooter

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Question: Weren't the Palestinians offered their own homeland but declined?
No.

You could say they were offered a homeland through partition except you'd have to ignore that the offer was about half of the country of Palestine that already existed.
And Olmert it was rumoured offered Abbas a settlement, except that Olmert wouldn't put the offer down on paper so Abbas made a sketch on a napkin. Imagine buying a home from a real estate agent that wouldn't tell you what the property boundaries were.

Take a look now and its pretty obvious you can't build a Palestinian state anymore.
One state solution it is.

 

Frankfooter

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The idea of land swaps has been approved by the UN, the Arab League, and the PA. The only actual discussion was exactly how much and which land should be swapped.

Unfortunately, a peace deal means both sides need to accept some kind of peace that is acceptable to both sides and as of yes, neither the current Israeli government nor any of the Palestinian leadership seem interested in living with the other.
Where on this map are those land swaps going to go?
The UN also says every single settlement is illegal and on Palestinian land.

Go find a napkin and draw a map you think can work.
Otherwise you'll have to admit the one state solution is a done deal.

 

Klatuu

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Partition of land has almost always been contentious and maybe even have resulted in violence.

For example, look what happened when the Brits created Pakistan/Bangladesh out of India.

I lived through this kind of debate when I lived in Quebec and talk of separation was at its highest.

Question: Weren't the Palestinians offered their own homeland but declined?
Offered a homeland? They had one already doofus. How idiotic can the pro Israel crowd get?
 

basketcase

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I already said that the Palestinians and Arabs could have dealt with it better, but you'd be naive to think that there wont be war when you suddenly strip people off their land.
That argument is somewhat ahistorical. In the Ottoman and British eras, Jews were legally buying land from their legal owners. There was a huge issue around Ottoman land reforms where wealthy Arabs took advantage of land that could easily have been claimed by what had previously been semi-feudal farmers but those rich Arabs who chose to sell land to Jews were the legal owners. Those Arab tenant farmers then had to leave but isn't that the fault of the Arab elite who sold the land out from under them?

Again under the Ottomans and part of the British mandate, Jewish immigration picked up and even though they were generally legal immigrants living on what was legally purchased land, anti-immigrant and anti-Jewish sentiments were pushed by Arab leaders, often the very same people who were selling land to Jews. Anti-Jewish riots started in 1919 and often targeted long standing Jewish communities in Jerusalem and Hebron.

Also worth mentioning is half of Israeli Jews are Middle Eastern Jews; descended from either Jews from the long-standing communities or from the million Arab Jews chased from their homes because of anti-semitism. Like in many ethnic conflicts that were attempted to be solved during the 20th century, there was the nasty impact of population transfers which went both ways.

More importantly is that any solution has to be accepted by and accept the rights of Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, and Palestinians so complaining that the Balfour declaration or the UN Partition wasn't fair isn't very helpful. It's not like I'm going to demand Ireland/England account for the shoddy agricultural practices that screwed over my ancestors; the point is what can be done to move forward. Blindly blaming only one side for an extremely complex history won't do this.
 
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Klatuu

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I find it much amusing that those against Israel seem to have never even stepped foot on their soil.
You mean like the millions of Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed by Israel? They were barred from returning to their own homes by the racist policies of Israel in violation of international law.
 

basketcase

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Israelis are not willing to share their land with Palestinians either.
Right. That's why Canada, the UN, and Canada still think that a Two State peace is the only practical way forward.

Forget Palestinians, Israelis don't even want inter-religious marriage within their own citizenry, because they want to maintain Israel as a majority Jewish nation. So it is not like they were actually sincere with peace offerings.
You are making a very ridiculous generalization there. There are a significant number of Israelis who want civil marriages. They also don't ban inter-religious weddings; stupidly all weddings must be done by a religious figure so if a priest, Imam, or a Rabbi are willing to, it can be done. More importantly, Israel recognizes weddings done in other countries including inter-religious ones. For example the Israeli kid in the NBA has a legally married Jewish mother and Muslim father.

And Olmert's offer in 2008 seemed pretty sincere. BTW. many Israeli politicians want a Jewish majority while the PA will not allow Jewish citizens. Outside of the hatred in the conflict, Hebron had a Jewish community essentially since antiquity who lived there to be close to holy sites. In a simpler world, it would be nice Jews who want to continue living there as Palestinian citizens instead of moving to the Israeli side of the Green Line
 

basketcase

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Offered a homeland? They had one already doofus. How idiotic can the pro Israel crowd get?
When? The British Mandate? Turkic Ottoman Syria?

The should be a Palestinian state negotiated but there has never been one previously. Even the Palestinian part of the Partition became Jordanian, not Palestinian.
 
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basketcase

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You mean like the millions of Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed by Israel?
I know emotionally laden nonsense are your only contribution but 850,000 Palestinians fled Israeli territory in 1948/49 and even according to Palestinian historians, only 2% were actually forcibly removed, usually when their villages were directly engaged in attacks. During the same time frame, 1,000,000 Jews were chased from their Arab homes over something that had absolutely nothing to do with them.

Also funny because your posting history seems to be advocating that millions of Jews be ethnically cleansed from Israel.
 
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Klatuu

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I know emotionally laden nonsense are your only contribution but 850,000 Palestinians fled Israeli territory in 1948/49 and even according to Palestinian historians, only 2% were actually forcibly removed, usually when their villages were directly engaged in attacks. During the same time frame, 1,000,000 Jews were chased from their Arab homes over something that had absolutely nothing to do with them.

Also funny because your posting history seems to be advocating that millions of Jews be ethnically cleansed from Israel.
This should be easy for you. Which Palestinian historian said only 2% were forcibly removed?
 

Klatuu

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When? The British Mandate? Turkic Ottoman Syria?

The should be a Palestinian state negotiated but there has never been one previously. Even the Palestinian part of the Partition became Jordanian, not Palestinian.
Where they were living peacefully and productively for hundreds of years before they were ethnically cleansed by Jewish terrorists. You couldn’t figure that out? What is it about supporting Israel that lowers your IQ, grandpa?
 
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Klatuu

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2022
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That argument is somewhat ahistorical. In the Ottoman and British eras, Jews were legally buying land from their legal owners. There was a huge issue around Ottoman land reforms where wealthy Arabs took advantage of land that could easily have been claimed by what had previously been semi-feudal farmers but those rich Arabs who chose to sell land to Jews were the legal owners. Those Arab tenant farmers then had to leave but isn't that the fault of the Arab elite who sold the land out from under them?

Again under the Ottomans and part of the British mandate, Jewish immigration picked up and even though they were generally legal immigrants living on what was legally purchased land, anti-immigrant and anti-Jewish sentiments were pushed by Arab leaders, often the very same people who were selling land to Jews. Anti-Jewish riots started in 1919 and often targeted long standing Jewish communities in Jerusalem and Hebron.

Also worth mentioning is half of Israeli Jews are Middle Eastern Jews; descended from either Jews from the long-standing communities or from the million Arab Jews chased from their homes because of anti-semitism. Like in many ethnic conflicts that were attempted to be solved during the 20th century, there was the nasty impact of population transfers which went both ways.

More importantly is that any solution has to be accepted by and accept the rights of Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, and Palestinians so complaining that the Balfour declaration or the UN Partition wasn't fair isn't very helpful. It's not like I'm going to demand Ireland/England account for the shoddy agricultural practices that screwed over my ancestors; the point is what can be done to move forward. Blindly blaming only one side for an extremely complex history won't do this.
Why don’t you try rewriting this and apply the text you tried to tag on the end after sputtering out an antI Palestinian diatribe. This simplistic and racist drivel. Is that too complex for you?
 
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Frankfooter

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Also funny because your posting history seems to be advocating that millions of Jews be ethnically cleansed from Israel.
More gaslighting.

I know emotionally laden nonsense are your only contribution but 850,000 Palestinians fled Israeli territory in 1948/49 and even according to Palestinian historians, only 2% were actually forcibly removed, usually when their villages were directly engaged in attacks. During the same time frame, 1,000,000 Jews were chased from their Arab homes over something that had absolutely nothing to do with them.
This is disinformation.

You are making a very ridiculous generalization there. There are a significant number of Israelis who want civil marriages. They also don't ban inter-religious weddings; stupidly all weddings must be done by a religious figure so if a priest, Imam, or a Rabbi are willing to, it can be done. More importantly, Israel recognizes weddings done in other countries including inter-religious ones. For example the Israeli kid in the NBA has a legally married Jewish mother and Muslim father.
This is disinformation, its against the law in Israel.

The should be a Palestinian state negotiated but there has never been one previously.
No, the occupation is illegal according to the UN.
Why do they have to negotiate to get back what is legally theirs?

You already know that Israel won't ever hand back any land, that there is not enough land for a Palestinian state and that the two state solution is dead.
But you need the fantasy so you can try to plausibly deny you support apartheid.
 
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NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
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Israels neighbors have tried to end their existence how many times? And why did they stop... oh yeah because their failed badly and got their asses slapped each time not because they decided to accept Israel.
They are totally justified with their policies.

As for Apartheid, how are things going for South Africa and for that matter Zimbabwe after they got rid of it... yeah. Google that shit.
 
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Frankfooter

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Israels neighbors have tried to end their existence how many times? And why did they stop... oh yeah because their failed badly and got their asses slapped each time not because they decided to accept Israel.
They are totally justified with their policies.

As for Apartheid, how are things going for South Africa and for that matter Zimbabwe after they got rid of it... yeah. Google that shit.
Nothing like accusing everyone of wanting to kill you, is there?
I'm sure Putin thinks the same thing right now and is telling everyone back home how those evil Nazi Ukrainians attacked Russia and want to kill them all.

Cuz you know, both Putin and Israel took over large parts of another country by force and are presently occupying those countries.
Its not like you're surprised that Ukrainians are mad and fighting back, so don't know why you'd be surprised that Palestinians aren't so happy either.

Of course you could support deescalation and equal rights.

Oslo is dead. Liberal Israelis must make common cause with the Palestinians

Thirty years on from the signing of the Oslo Accords, the one lesson learnt is that only equal rights between equal citizens, Palestinian and Jewish, can end this conflict
 

basketcase

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This should be easy for you. Which Palestinian historian said only 2% were forcibly removed?
Walid Khalidi.

He was one of those wealthy Palestinians who just moved to his other property in Beirut very early on.
 

basketcase

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Where they were living peacefully and productively for hundreds of years before they were ethnically cleansed by Jewish terrorists. You couldn’t figure that out? What is it about supporting Israel that lowers your IQ, grandpa?
It is really sad that you guys feel the need to make up history. The actuality was Arab anti-immigrant and anti-Jewish violence predated any Jewish terrorist groups. The anti-Jewish riots in 1919 and 1929 caused the UN to twice propose partition plans, both of which were rejected out of hand by the Arab and Palestinian leadership.

Those Arab mods ethnically cleansed the centuries old Jewish population of Hebron and later the Jordanian army ethnically cleansed any Jews in land the conquered around Jerusalem and in the Old City. You might want to pretend otherwise by the Jewish Quarter was called the Jewish Quarter because it had a significant Jewish population for centuries, long before the concept of zionism existed. In fact, at around the time that some Jews were coming up with the idea, the Ottoman census showed Jews were the largest ethnic group in Jerusalem.
 
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