Toronto Girlfriends
Toronto Escorts

Israel/Palestine - Top 10 Lies

DATYdude

Puttin' in Face Time
Oct 8, 2003
3,762
0
36
The lie of victory By Bradley Burston

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=712621&contrassID=2

We love the smell of victory in the morning.

It smells like ... a lie.

It smells like the lies we tell ourselves to ward off the terrible fear that our side may be, to some extent, mistaken, and our enemy may, to some extent, have a point.

It smells like the self-satisfaction with which we extol our virtuousness, our sacrifice, our very selflessness - all the while reducing the enemy to an abstraction, a caricature of bad intentions and vile deeds.

It smells like the near-erotic, near-narcotic rush that our hotheads get from extremism, especially the narcissistically heroic partisans who live nowhere near here.

It's a coping mechanism, this lying to ourselves. It's a defense mechanism, this lying to others. Who could blame us? Life here is hard, on both sides.

Where the truth hurts, a lie anesthetizes.

It could be argued that, since we tend to believe half-truths with our whole hearts, these are not lies at all.

Whatever we choose to call them, these tenets of suspended disbelief refuse to die.

So let us celebrate them for what they are: glorious crutches, magnificent stumbling blocks, our slippery rock, our inept redeemer.

Of all the lies, the lie of victory is surely the most insidious. It says to us - Israeli and Palestinian as one - that if we were to apply more firepower, endure more punishment, display more unity, take a harder line throughout - we will gain a final, permanent, satisfying victory over the other.

It is, like all of our lies, alluring. It is, in fact, the most alluring, perhaps because it is composed of all the others.

The Top 10 Lies We Live By:

10. The lie of We Were Here First

What Palestinians tell themselves: We are the descendants of the Canaanites, we were here before you. We are the heirs of Ishmael, the first son of Abraham. Your claims to be the descendants of the Hebrews are specious. You are Russians, Americans, Khazars. We were here before you. We have been here forever. Nothing can make us leave.

What Israelis tell themselves: We are the direct and genuine heirs of Abraham, who willed his inheritance to his son Isaac, whose son took the name Israel. Your claims to be Canaanites are specious. Many of you came from neighboring Arab lands a few generations ago. We were here before you. We have been here forever. Nothing can make us leave.

9. The lie of the State They Don't Deserve

Right-wing Israeli version: There is no such entity as a Palestine, and no Palestinian people, as such. They are artificial constructs, to serve the aim of ousting the Jews from their land. Moreover, terror has shown them undeserving of a state.

Militant Palestinian version: The Jews are a foreign growth in the body of Palestine. They came here from Europe and America, expelling Palestinians in the process, and it is time for both to return to their respective homes. The state of the Zionists is illegal, it is build on land that was part of the nation of Islam, and will not endure.

The truth: [Leaving alone the circumstance that most Israelis are native-born, and many trace their roots to Muslim countries from which their ancestors were expelled]

The principle of self-determination and the history of national movements, to say nothing of the development of Zionism and the Palestinian statehood movement, suggest that peoples themselves are empowered to decide if they constitute a people, and if that people legitimately aspires to independence.

This lie is close to, but not the same as:

8. We don't recognize them.

But we do, of course. Hamas talks about Israel incessantly. Israel talks about Hamas in nearly every breath. Then sides have an endless array of go-betweens managing every conceivable aspect of indirect contacts.

This lie is, in turn, similar to but not the same as:

7. There is no partner

The fact is that the lack of a partner serves the needs of both Ehud Olmert and Ismail Haniyeh. Olmert fervently wants to take advantage of the current split personality of the Israeli consensus, which has moved sharply right in its assessment of peace prospects with the Palestinians, and markedly left in its willingness to consider a future West Bank withdrawal.

To leverage this, Olmert has given indications of a preference for unilateralism, a position made much easier by an internationally shunned Hamas government.

At the same time, the last thing Palestinian Prime Minister Haniyeh needs, is to be viewed as a collaborator with Israel. "There is no partner," may have a different meaning when Hamas says it, but the advantage is mutual.

6. The lie of National Socialism.

Palestinian version: They are as bad as the Nazis.
Israeli version: They are as bad as the Nazis.

5. The lie of the Only Language

Both versions: Force is the only language they understand.

4. The lie of will.

Both versions: Our will is stronger than theirs, our cause more rooted, our stubbornness more pronounced, our endurance more bottomless, our tradition more timeless, our defiance more directed, our rage more justified, our presence more entrenched.

3. The lie of revenge

Arguably the hardest lie of all to resist. The lie that suggests that we alone have been wronged, that we have a duty - as well as a gut drive - to avenge that wrong, and that in so doing, we will somehow put an end to the injustice. The lie that masks the fact that the need for revenge is the engine of escalation, the breeder fuel of perpetual war.


2. The lie of victim monopoly

Both versions: We are the world, we are the victims. We kill in self-defense, our enemy kills innocents in cold blood. The moral high ground is clearly ours. The news media are demonstrably biased toward our enemy.

1. The lie of victory

In the Middle East, there is no such thing as victory. Ask George Bush. Ask the victors of the Six Day War. There is no such thing as Mission Accomplished, clear-cut triumph, a simple win.

We want to believe in victory, because the prospect of no hope for triumph, for some meaning to all the suffering, is beyond unbearable. Nonetheless ...

In the Mideast, today's victory is tomorrow's nightmare. In a situation pitting Western concepts of defeat and victory against the Islamist view of martyrdom, no one can win. The best that civilians on both sides can hope for, is a mutual improvement of circumstances, and a truce that -flawed as it may be -somehow manages to hold.
 

Tragically_Glib

New member
Jan 8, 2006
371
0
0
That was a good read, thank you.

As Canadian’s it’s difficult, ummm, impossible to comprehend such hatred. Even the great Canadian pastime of American bashing is born out of frustration not hate. I read all of your replies to Cyrus’s posts (where is he anyway?), they were always reasonable. It was interesting to copy 8 – 10 words of his (cut and paste) posts and Google them to find the source. Commonly Google only returned one or two results which was no surprise.

When I Googled "Note: All information provided in the following was collected" from his “Iranian Fighter Projects: An Assessment” post the one and only result lead to the Iran Defence Forum. You should spend some time there, it’s an interesting glance at the Iranian psyche. What really makes it interesting is Arabs and Jews both participate. The following are 2 signatures that stuck with me:

A Jewish Member: “If the Arabs will let down their arms, we`ll have Peace, if Israel let down its arms, it will cease to exist”

An Arab Member: US` own military equipment is very old and outdated. Especially their ground equipment. The new stuff they make are all sold to foreign countries. They do not have the money to modernize their own military.

If you visit be sure to read some posts by Arman. He produces videos to emphasize his viewpoint. Here’s a typical example of his work: http://media.putfile.com/Message-from-iranian-people
 

scouser1

Well-known member
Dec 7, 2001
5,666
94
48
Pickering
very interesting article, I have always admired Haaretz the fact that it bashes the extreme right wing of Israeli politics but doesnt cow tow to the Palestinian extremists either
 

cyrus

New member
Jun 29, 2003
1,381
0
0



Published by
Jews for Justice in the Middle East
As the periodic bloodshed continues in the Middle East, the search for an equitable solution must come to grips with the root cause of the conflict. The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational "terrorists" who have no point of view worth listening to. Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes - on both sides - inevitably follow from this original injustice.

This paper outlines the history of Palestine to show how this process occurred and what a moral solution to the region's problems should consist of. (to read the whole paper press on the title link above)
If you care about the people of the Middle East, Jewish and Arab, you owe it to yourself to read this account of the other side of the historical record.





Introduction



The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland Early History. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there Statehood. They were met with increasingly violent opposition Terrorism from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs' inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, Fundamentalism or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).
The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists' intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn't matter. Criticism The Arabs' opposition to Zionism wasn't based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.
One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation. The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression. Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930's and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation.

But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic "land without people for a people without land" was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see

*Note:
an e-mail challenging the quotations in this section received. We forwarded the challenge to the authors, and Israel Sahak replied with a detailed response. In fairness to both positions, we have posted the challenge and the response on another page.. Read the comments by CLICKING HERE


[SIZE=+2]Click on the chapters [/SIZE][SIZE=+2]


[/SIZE]

 

DATYdude

Puttin' in Face Time
Oct 8, 2003
3,762
0
36
Come On!

Cyrus, i don't have time to check your references because life is too short for your BS, but I am not fooled and I hope other readers aren't fooled into thinking that a position which is against the jewish mainstream is somehow valid simply because it comes from other jews.

Also, why don't you post anything against your views that comes from Arabs, Muslims, Iranians? How about some Irshad Manji?
 

cyrus

New member
Jun 29, 2003
1,381
0
0
DATYdude said:
Cyrus, i don't have time to check your references because life is too short for your BS, but I am not fooled and I hope other readers aren't fooled into thinking that a position which is against the jewish mainstream is somehow valid simply because it comes from other jews.

Also, why don't you post anything against your views that comes from Arabs, Muslims, Iranians? How about some Irshad Manji?
You should make the time, it is important, particularly to our North American Jewish readers to recognize what were the shadows, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave!

"To them, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images unless they turn there heads and look again, and see what will naturally follow if they are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn and look toward the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive someone saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned toward more real existence, he has a clearer vision—what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them—will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows, which he formerly saw, are truer than the objects, which are now shown to him? Far truer." --Plato The Republic
 
Last edited:

Tragically_Glib

New member
Jan 8, 2006
371
0
0
The Origin..... THE ORIGIN!

cyrus said:
You should make the time, it is important, Blaa Blaa Blaa wall of the cave!
CYRUS

Nobody here cares about the fucking ORIGIN. We want to hear about the resolution!


THE FUCKING ORIGIN, I can't stand it

What a retard
 

cyrus

New member
Jun 29, 2003
1,381
0
0
Tragically_Glib said:
CYRUS

..............

THE FUCKING ORIGIN, I can't stand it....
I know what you mean, truth does hurt!
[But]
The resolutions are there too, you have to look it up closer
:D

"The Israeli government could solve the Palestine/Israel crisis tomorrow. It actually would be in the best interests of its citizens to do so because attacks on Israelis would cease if Palestinian demands for a viable, independent state were accepted and compensation for Arab losses made.

Here in America, we Jews are thoroughly assimilated into the mainstream of society and hold positions of power and influence in every field of endeavor. We do not need to be in a defensive mood anymore. We can afford to change out attitude from "is it good the the Jews?" to "Is it good?" At the very least, American Jews need to categorically state that we cannot condone Israel's illegal occupation of Palestinian land, and the intentional murder and crippling of Palestinian protestors armed only with rocks, as documented in reports by the UN Security Council, the UN Human Rights Commission, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Israeli groups like B'Tselem, etc."
 
Last edited:

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
59,931
6,358
113
cyrus said:
You should make the time, it is important, particularly to our North American Jewish readers to recognize what were in the shadows, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave!...
The falacy of your arguement is that the authors of this booklet you posted are in fact americans themselves and thus represent one segment of North American Jewish? opinion and that does not make them fact. I would think that this would make them LESS in touch with the "reality" of the situation. To add to the disconnect with reality, the hosting site (cactus48) is run by American Christians
http://equal-peace.com/mideast.htm
cactus48.com a website by American Christians which presents a pro-Palestinian history. They distribute a booklet written by "Jews for Justice in the Middle East", a small organization of Jewish scholars.....
The biggest problem with the source>>>

The fact that the authors are not even named in any source I could find leads one to doubt the credibility of the article. For this group of "scholars" to remain anonomous, provide unsourced data, and only have a P.O. box in California as a contact likely means that the they have no confidence in their view of history and therefore are unwilling to put their views to any kind of academic investigation. Who knows, the "Jews for Justice..." may not even be Jewish.
 

cyrus

New member
Jun 29, 2003
1,381
0
0
Tragically_Glib said:
"....An Arab Member: US' own military equipment is very old and outdated. Especially their ground equipment. The new stuff they make are all sold to foreign countries. They do not have the money to modernize their own military....If you visit be sure to read some posts by Arman"


What a retard
By the way ..."Arman" is not an Arab name; he is certainly an ARMENIAN, (a very popular name with them) maybe an Iranian-Armenian that means he is a Christians Orthodox of Eastern Orthodox church, thus u are in fact a retard.
Tragically_Glib said:
hunt you down and give you a wedgie.
......
Oh man, you kill me.
Wow . . you sure did . . . do you want more Webgie . . . I am all over you know:)
here is a nice one check it out
All Empires History Fourm
 
Last edited:

cyrus

New member
Jun 29, 2003
1,381
0
0
basketcase said:
.........
The biggest problem with the source>>>

The fact that the authors are not even named in any source I could find leads one to doubt the credibility of the article. For this group of "scholars" to remain anonomous, provide unsourced data, and only have a P.O. box in California as a contact likely means that the they have no confidence in their view of history and therefore are unwilling to put their views to any kind of academic investigation. Who knows, the "Jews for Justice..." may not even be Jewish.
A useful advice: "Don't waste too much energy on who said what, but rather on what was said . . .”

Here some more informative links
Other Jewish organizations



We do not necessarily concur with all the
positions taken on these sites, but you may
find them informative and interesting.


[SIZE=+1]Not in Our Name Coalition
[/SIZE]
http://www.nimn.org
[SIZE=+1]Jewish Voice for Peace[/SIZE]
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org
E-mail to get on mailing list

[SIZE=+1]Gush Shalom[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.gush-shalom.org
[SIZE=+1]Jews Against Occupation[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.angelcities.com/members/jato

[SIZE=+1]Jewish Peace Fellowship [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org

[SIZE=+1]Truth, Justice, and Human Rights[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
in the Middle East
[/SIZE]http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891
[SIZE=+1]Neturei Karta[/SIZE]
http://www.netureikarta.org

[SIZE=+1]Jews NOT Zionists [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.jewsnotzionists.org

[SIZE=+1]Yesh Gvul, The movement for IDF men [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories
.
[/SIZE]http://www.diak.org/Haayesh-gvul.htm

[SIZE=+1]Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.salam.org/activism/home_demolitions.html

[SIZE=+1]B'Tselem (Israeli Human Rights Group)[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.btselem.org

[SIZE=+1]Bat Shalom, Israeli Women for Peace [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.batshalom.org

[SIZE=+1]"Occupied Territory"[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.occupied.org

[SIZE=+1]Rabbis for Human Rights[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.rhr.israel.net[SIZE=+1]

Oz v'Shalom - Netivot Shalom
(religious Zionist anti-Occupation)
[/SIZE]http://www.ariga.com/ozveshalom.index.asp

[SIZE=+1]Jewish Alliance Against the Occupation [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.opentent.org/jews.html

[SIZE=+1]Association for Civil Rights in Israel [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.nif.org/acri

[SIZE=+1]Prominent Jews writing articles in Haaretz[/SIZE]
http://www.haaretzdaily.com

[SIZE=+1]Alliance of Middle East Scientists & Physicians [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~yoram/amesp.html

[SIZE=+1]Visions for peace with justice in Israel/Palestine [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.vopj.org

[SIZE=+1]Middle East Crisis Committee[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.thestruggle.org

[SIZE=+1]Search for Justice and Equality in Palestine/Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]http://www.searchforjustice.org
[SIZE=+1]Tikkun Magazine [/SIZE]
http://www.tikkun.org


[SIZE=+2]For Additional Information[/SIZE]



[SIZE=+2]Websites[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]Reading List[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]World should intervene [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
to end the Israeli Apartheid

by Dr. Hanan Ashrawi[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]The Struggle Against Terrorism[/SIZE]
Mazin B. Qumsiyeh, PhD




 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
59,931
6,358
113
cyrus said:
A useful advice: "Don't waste too much energy on who said what, but rather on what was said . . .”
...
Unfortunately, the validity of a view is MUCH more powerful if the authors put their credibility behind it. If their view is so valid, why are they afraid to be named? Is it because they are not accurate? Is it because they are not even Jews? How can you fairly examine information without knowing from where it came and what alterior motives are there that inspire bias? (of course fairness of views has no meaning to you)

Daty posted an article examining the perceptions of both sides. You reply by finding some one sided propoganda from highly dubious sources and can only respond by trying to find fault with the way he exposed your garbage. I wonder why he called you a retard?

p.s. Where are your lists of Arab sites fighting for a just peace? Is it because people are afraid to come out against the fundamentalist views?
 

Tragically_Glib

New member
Jan 8, 2006
371
0
0
Me? A TARD! Don't make me...

cyrus said:
By the way ..."Arman" is not an Arab name; he is certainly an ARMENIAN, (a very popular name with them) maybe an Iranian-Armenian that means he is a Christians Orthodox of Eastern Orthodox church, thus u are in fact a retard.
hunt you down and give you a wedgie.

Here is Armans last thread. As of 30-Apr-06 he quit the board. Reason?

http://www.irandefence.net/showthread.php?t=3399


Oh man, you kill me.

,
 

cyrus

New member
Jun 29, 2003
1,381
0
0
basketcase said:
Unfortunately, the validity of a view is MUCH more powerful if the authors put their credibility behind it. If their view is so valid, why are they afraid to be named? Is it because they are not accurate? Is it because they are not even Jews? How can you fairly examine information without knowing from where it came and what alterior motives are there that inspire bias? (of course fairness of views has no meaning to you)

Daty posted an article examining the perceptions of both sides. You reply by finding some one sided propoganda from highly dubious sources and can only respond by trying to find fault with the way he exposed your garbage. I wonder why he called you a retard?

p.s. Where are your lists of Arab sites fighting for a just peace? Is it because people are afraid to come out against the fundamentalist views?
I personally could care less who they are [but] if they say they are Jews then I guess they are Jews in any case, I suggest that you first examine your own motives for doubting them on the basis of racial, cultural or religion origin then you should examine the content of the booklet as opposite to who the webmaster was [hell…the webmaster could have been me, you never know!] and finally if you still have any doubt, hmmm . . . don’t be so lazy, ask them, they seem to be responding to enquiry minds by forwarding the questions to the original authors for the proper response.

Here this is a note on the inquiry minds and here is there contact information:
A note from cactus48.com:
The webmaster of cactus48.com received an e-mail challenging the quotations in this section
Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel. We forwarded the challenge to the authors, and Israel Sahak replied with a detailed response. In fairness to both positions, we have posted the challenge and the response on another page, from which you can easily return to this page. Read the comments by CLICKING HERE



Jews for Justice in The Middle East

P.O. Box 14561
BerkeleyCA94712
E-mail comments that will be forwarded to publishers of
"The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict"


In any case, if you have bothered to actually read each chapter or better yet download the complete PDF version of the booklet, you would have seen that all the author’s name, work and contributions were listed and well referenced.
http://www.cactus48.com/The%20Origin.pdf

In conclusion, all you, in very poor-test, attacks are truly a testimony to your lack of common sense, reading skill and weak minds.
 
Last edited:

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
59,931
6,358
113
cyrus said:
In any case, if you have bothers to actually read each chapter or better yet download the complete PDF version of the booklet,...In conclusion, all you in very poor-test attacks are truly a testimony to your lack of common sense, reading skill and weak minds.
If you are going to insult someone's literacy skills and mental ability, it is best to do so with sentences that are intelligible. I would respond but I have no clue what "all you in very poor-test attacks" means.

cyrus said:
..., I suggest that you first examine your own motives for doubting them on the basis of racial, cultural or religion origin then you should examine the content of the booklet as opposite to who thewebmaster was ..
Any doubts that I have about the credibility of the authors rests solely in their unwillingness to reveal their identities and stand up to real scrutiny. Why would anyone waste their time responding to an anonymous challenge from some one sided "official" group? After all, your friend Irving and the IHF refused to pay up for their "challenge" until the courts forced them to. Why would anyone expect this group to be any different when real scholars have done enough research to do so.

p.s. I'ver read enough of it to see they often define the facts they wish to use despite the disputed nature and evidence to the contrary such as not admitting the role of Arab leaders in contributing to the refugee crisis, with calls to leave the land and refusal to treat the refugees with any form of compassion.
 

cyrus

New member
Jun 29, 2003
1,381
0
0
That was not an insult :rolleyes:

Any doubts that I have about the credibility of the authors rests solely in their unwillingness to reveal their identities and stand up to real scrutiny. Why would anyone waste their time responding to an anonymous challenge from some one sided "official" group?
There names listed are over there! Yet we are wasting our time arguing over them!
Puzzling indeed!
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
59,931
6,358
113
cyrus said:
That was not an insult :rolleyes:


There names listed are over there! Yet we are wasting our time arguing over them!
Puzzling indeed!
Missing the point. The work contains a selection of quotes and their attribution. My question is who is responsible for making the selection of which quotes were to make up this booklet. It is quite clear that the authors (compilers if you will) have a clear agenda and have only picked the quotes that support their views. There is no historical detail given, no evidence of the assertions, just a collection of statements with no indication of the context or meaning. The quotes are put together in a haphazard way that shows little in the way of original thought or analysis and even makes exteme claims such as implying Jews collaborated in the holocaust as a means of gaining a homeland. It is likely that these "scholars" are nothing more than a couple of average people with time on their hands and an agenda to push.

This work is as authoritative as those that use the selected quotes from the Bible to "prove" homosexuality is wrong or from the Koran to "prove" Islam is a religion of terrorists.

It would be much easier to put together a compilation of quotes from Arab and Palestinian leaders that would make them look like the worst people ever to live but it still wouldn't mean it was true.

All in all, I find reading used toilet paper more informative and less full of shit.
 

cyrus

New member
Jun 29, 2003
1,381
0
0
basketcase said:
Missing the point. The work contains a selection of quotes and their attribution. My question is who is responsible for making the selection of which quotes were to make up this booklet. It is quite clear that the authors (compilers if you will) have a clear agenda and have only picked the quotes that support their views. There is no historical detail given, no evidence of the assertions, just a collection of statements with no indication of the context or meaning. The quotes are put together in a haphazard way that shows little in the way of original thought or analysis and even makes exteme claims such as implying Jews collaborated in the holocaust as a means of gaining a homeland. It is likely that these "scholars" are nothing more than a couple of average people with time on their hands and an agenda to push.

This work is as authoritative as those that use the selected quotes from the Bible to "prove" homosexuality is wrong or from the Koran to "prove" Islam is a religion of terrorists.

It would be much easier to put together a compilation of quotes from Arab and Palestinian leaders that would make them look like the worst people ever to live but it still wouldn't mean it was true.

All in all, I find reading used toilet paper more informative and less full of shit.
OK. . Letus examine a small part of this booklet; Chapter 1: Early History of the Region


At the end of each section, there is a reference to the author's name(s) and / their works [I will highlight them in dark-red for a sake of our examination] so if one wishes to further investigate or validate the assertions, one would know where to look for all the supporting documents & the evidences that one needs. I mean you as an educated person surely know these sorts of standard writing protocols thus that must have been your point!


Early History of the Region


Before the Hebrews first migrated there around 1800 B.C., the land of Canaan was occupied by Canaanites.
"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and …..." Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, "Their Promised Land."

The present-day Palestinians' ancestral heritage
"But all these [different peoples who had come to Canaan] were additions, sprigs grafted onto the parent tree...And that parent tree was Canaanite...[The Arab invaders of the 7th century A.D.] made Moslem converts of the natives, settled down as residents, and intermarried ….." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."

The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine
"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."

More on Canaanite civilization
"Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system here to for attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and …. the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE…..." The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.”

How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?
"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. …., "The Question of Palestine."

How did land ownership traditionally work in Palestine and when did it change?
"[The Ottoman Land Code of 1858] required the registration in the name of individual owners of agricultural land, most of which had never ….." Rashid Khalidi, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens

Was Arab opposition to the arrival of Zionists based on inherent anti-Semitism or a real sense of danger to their community?
"The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was `to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.'...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha'am wrote …..." John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

Inherent anti-Semitism? - continued
"Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than ….. " Don Peretz, "The Arab-Israeli Dispute."

Inherent anti-Semitism? - continued
"[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of ….. " Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

Jews attitude towards Arabs when reaching Palestine.
"Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in ….. ." Zionist writer Ahad Ha'am, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

Proposals for Arab-Jewish Cooperation
"An article by Yitzhak Epstein, published in Hashiloah in 1907...called for a new Zionist policy towards the Arabs after 30 years of settlement activity...Like Ahad-Ha'am in 1891, Epstein claims that ….. " Israeli author, Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, "Original Sins."

Was Palestine the only, or even preferred, destination of Jews facing persecution when the Zionist movement started?
"The pogroms forced many Jews to leave Russia. Societies known as 'Lovers of Zion,' which were forerunners of the Zionist organization, convinced some of the …. ." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by The People Press Palestine Book Project.
 
Last edited:

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
59,931
6,358
113
I hate it when I have to repeat myself.

basketcase said:
Missing the point. The work contains a selection of quotes and their attribution. My question is who is responsible for making the selection of which quotes were to make up this booklet. It is quite clear that the authors (compilers if you will) have a clear agenda and have only picked the quotes that support their views. ...

This work is as authoritative as those that use the selected quotes from the Bible to "prove" homosexuality is wrong or from the Koran to "prove" Islam is a religion of terrorists...
If you actually think the people quoted sat down and put this together, you're thicker than I thought. Those quoted do have some sort of academic or historic credentials, even if their views are disputed. Those who compiled it do not have the guts to face the light.

All in all, I find reading used toilet paper more informative and less full of shit.
 
Toronto Escorts