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Western slips in global MBA ranking
Western slips in global MBA ranking
Rotman, Schulich maintain positions in annual survey
By JANET McFARLAND
Monday, January 24, 2005 - Page B3
The Ivey School of Business at the University of Western Ontario has continued its multiyear slide in the Financial Times annual ranking of top global MBA programs.
The 2005 rankings, to be released today, show Ivey falling to 34th position internationally, down from 29th last year. Ivey has slid lower in the FT survey during each of the past three years, moving from 18th place globally in 2002.
The two top-ranked Canadian business schools placed in the same positions as in 2004. The Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto remains in 21st place globally, while the Schulich School of Business at York University is once again ranked in 22nd position. The McGill University Faculty of Management also remained in the same spot in 2005, ranking 39th internationally.
Omar Toulan, academic director of the McGill MBA program, said the university was especially pleased to rank 11th globally in the FT's category of "international mobility," which measures the employment movements of alumni over three years.
"This reflects the very nature of our graduates," Prof. Toulan said. "McGill MBAs are highly diverse, well prepared to embrace international careers, and have a strong sense of inquisitiveness, which helps them succeed in international settings."
On a North American basis, McGill placed in the top 10 for international faculty, international students and international experience of students during the MBA program.
The influential FT survey, which is closely watched by business school deans around the world, awarded top honours to three perennial favourites.
The Harvard Business School tied for first place in 2005 with the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, followed in third position by the Columbia Business School. Prior to 2005, Wharton had been alone in first place since 2001.
Over all, the top rankings were dominated by U.S. business schools, with only London Business School and INSEAD (based in France and Singapore) breaking the U.S. sweep of the top 10 positions.
Among other Canadian universities, the Sauder School of Business at the University of British Columbia climbed to 55th spot in the global ranking, up from 67th position in 2004. The Queen's [University] School of Business slid to 75th position in 2005 from 52nd place in 2004.
The John Molson School of Business at Concordia University climbed into the top 100 in 2005, making its debut in 81st position in the FT ranking. However, the University of Alberta School of Business, which ranked 97th in 2004, failed to make the top 100 cut in 2005.
The FT ranking of MBA programs heavily emphasizes alumni success, awarding 55 per cent of its marks on the basis of an annual alumni survey. As part of the alumni category, 20 per cent of overall marks are allocated for average salaries three years after graduation, and 20 per cent for the increase in salaries from the beginning of the MBA to three years after graduation.
Among Canadian MBA programs, graduates of the Ivey School of Business continue to have the highest salary within three years after graduation and the highest percentage increase from the beginning of the MBA until three years after graduation.
But Ivey has seen its numbers slide in these categories, and in the so-called "value-for-money" category, which measures the salary of alumni compared with the cost of the MBA courses. This has been a factor in pushing the university's overall standing lower in recent years.
But Western has tended to rank much higher in other MBA surveys, which stress different criteria. Last year, for example, The Wall Street Journal ranked Ivey seventh among non-U.S. business schools, ahead of Rotman. The Wall Street Journal puts more emphasis on surveying the views of corporate recruiters.
FT said universities had to make gains in 2005 just to stay in the same position in the rankings.
MBA rankings
The top full-time global MBA programs in the annual Financial Times business school ranking, and where Canadian schools rank.
TOP FIVE
Harvard Business School
Wharton Schol, University of Pennsylvania
Columbia Business School
Stanford University
London Business School
CANADIAN SCHOOLS
21. Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto
22. Schulich School of Business, York University
34. Ivey School of Business, University of Western Ontario
39. McGill University Faculty of Management
55. Sauder School of Business, University of Britisholumbia
75. Queen's School of Business
81. John Molson School of Business, Concordia University
Western slips in global MBA ranking
Rotman, Schulich maintain positions in annual survey
By JANET McFARLAND
Monday, January 24, 2005 - Page B3
The Ivey School of Business at the University of Western Ontario has continued its multiyear slide in the Financial Times annual ranking of top global MBA programs.
The 2005 rankings, to be released today, show Ivey falling to 34th position internationally, down from 29th last year. Ivey has slid lower in the FT survey during each of the past three years, moving from 18th place globally in 2002.
The two top-ranked Canadian business schools placed in the same positions as in 2004. The Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto remains in 21st place globally, while the Schulich School of Business at York University is once again ranked in 22nd position. The McGill University Faculty of Management also remained in the same spot in 2005, ranking 39th internationally.
Omar Toulan, academic director of the McGill MBA program, said the university was especially pleased to rank 11th globally in the FT's category of "international mobility," which measures the employment movements of alumni over three years.
"This reflects the very nature of our graduates," Prof. Toulan said. "McGill MBAs are highly diverse, well prepared to embrace international careers, and have a strong sense of inquisitiveness, which helps them succeed in international settings."
On a North American basis, McGill placed in the top 10 for international faculty, international students and international experience of students during the MBA program.
The influential FT survey, which is closely watched by business school deans around the world, awarded top honours to three perennial favourites.
The Harvard Business School tied for first place in 2005 with the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, followed in third position by the Columbia Business School. Prior to 2005, Wharton had been alone in first place since 2001.
Over all, the top rankings were dominated by U.S. business schools, with only London Business School and INSEAD (based in France and Singapore) breaking the U.S. sweep of the top 10 positions.
Among other Canadian universities, the Sauder School of Business at the University of British Columbia climbed to 55th spot in the global ranking, up from 67th position in 2004. The Queen's [University] School of Business slid to 75th position in 2005 from 52nd place in 2004.
The John Molson School of Business at Concordia University climbed into the top 100 in 2005, making its debut in 81st position in the FT ranking. However, the University of Alberta School of Business, which ranked 97th in 2004, failed to make the top 100 cut in 2005.
The FT ranking of MBA programs heavily emphasizes alumni success, awarding 55 per cent of its marks on the basis of an annual alumni survey. As part of the alumni category, 20 per cent of overall marks are allocated for average salaries three years after graduation, and 20 per cent for the increase in salaries from the beginning of the MBA to three years after graduation.
Among Canadian MBA programs, graduates of the Ivey School of Business continue to have the highest salary within three years after graduation and the highest percentage increase from the beginning of the MBA until three years after graduation.
But Ivey has seen its numbers slide in these categories, and in the so-called "value-for-money" category, which measures the salary of alumni compared with the cost of the MBA courses. This has been a factor in pushing the university's overall standing lower in recent years.
But Western has tended to rank much higher in other MBA surveys, which stress different criteria. Last year, for example, The Wall Street Journal ranked Ivey seventh among non-U.S. business schools, ahead of Rotman. The Wall Street Journal puts more emphasis on surveying the views of corporate recruiters.
FT said universities had to make gains in 2005 just to stay in the same position in the rankings.
MBA rankings
The top full-time global MBA programs in the annual Financial Times business school ranking, and where Canadian schools rank.
TOP FIVE
Harvard Business School
Wharton Schol, University of Pennsylvania
Columbia Business School
Stanford University
London Business School
CANADIAN SCHOOLS
21. Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto
22. Schulich School of Business, York University
34. Ivey School of Business, University of Western Ontario
39. McGill University Faculty of Management
55. Sauder School of Business, University of Britisholumbia
75. Queen's School of Business
81. John Molson School of Business, Concordia University
An MBA is great for someone in their mid to late 20s who has been working since finishing an undergrad at 22 or 23. That means they have somewhere around 4 to 7 years of experience. Its great if you feel stuck at a current level in your career. A 2 year MBA may result in a jump in your career level that would have taken much more time if you were working. In some industries you cant get past a certain level without an advanced degree or at least its extremely difficult and uncommon.
What school you choose should be based on what you want the MBA to do for you. Ivey is a great school but dont believe that every grad gets a great job. Theres only so many people who get the top consulting or i-banking jobs. And these coveted jobs go to grads from schools from all over the country. Your chances may be better if your from U of T but your not out of the running if your from another school. And youve got to consider the additional cost of the top programs.
If you work for a manufacturing company and want to become a manager at that company, a program other than U of T or Ivey may be just as well or even better suited from you.
Here in montreal we have 3 english MBA programs in the city and several french ones in the province. While only McGill seems to get attention here in Canada, I can tell you that grads from the other 2 english programs are well respected and do get their fair share of top jobs relative to their program sise and age.
An MBA is all about contacts. Do you think a degree from Havard is that different than a degree from the U of Saskatchewan? If they use the same texts and same course structures and teaching methodologies, do you think you cant learn the same marketing or finance at either school? Perhaps if you were talking medicine or advanced physics then a top school with better resources and experts would make a difference.
What school you choose should be based on what you want the MBA to do for you. Ivey is a great school but dont believe that every grad gets a great job. Theres only so many people who get the top consulting or i-banking jobs. And these coveted jobs go to grads from schools from all over the country. Your chances may be better if your from U of T but your not out of the running if your from another school. And youve got to consider the additional cost of the top programs.
If you work for a manufacturing company and want to become a manager at that company, a program other than U of T or Ivey may be just as well or even better suited from you.
Here in montreal we have 3 english MBA programs in the city and several french ones in the province. While only McGill seems to get attention here in Canada, I can tell you that grads from the other 2 english programs are well respected and do get their fair share of top jobs relative to their program sise and age.
An MBA is all about contacts. Do you think a degree from Havard is that different than a degree from the U of Saskatchewan? If they use the same texts and same course structures and teaching methodologies, do you think you cant learn the same marketing or finance at either school? Perhaps if you were talking medicine or advanced physics then a top school with better resources and experts would make a difference.
Ranking bullsh*t
in response to Ivey dropping in rankings.
-Ivey participates in three rankings: Business Week, Wall Street Journal and Financial Times.
-In both Business Week and the Wall Street Journal, which measures what our "customers" are looking for ("customers" being recruiters and students), Ivey has been consistently ranked as the top Canadian Business school, and is consistently in the top 10 international schools (always ahead of Rotman and Schulich)
As for the FT rankings:
- Ivey suffers in both career progress and % increase in salaries because of the greater level of experience that the students have, as well as leading the other Canadian schools in salary levels
- Ivey also leads Canadian schools in tuition fee deregulation, leading to a lower ROI. The ROI only takes into account tuition, not living expenses. Since it's more expensive to live in Toronto than London, using only tuition is slightly misleading
in response to Ivey dropping in rankings.
-Ivey participates in three rankings: Business Week, Wall Street Journal and Financial Times.
-In both Business Week and the Wall Street Journal, which measures what our "customers" are looking for ("customers" being recruiters and students), Ivey has been consistently ranked as the top Canadian Business school, and is consistently in the top 10 international schools (always ahead of Rotman and Schulich)
As for the FT rankings:
- Ivey suffers in both career progress and % increase in salaries because of the greater level of experience that the students have, as well as leading the other Canadian schools in salary levels
- Ivey also leads Canadian schools in tuition fee deregulation, leading to a lower ROI. The ROI only takes into account tuition, not living expenses. Since it's more expensive to live in Toronto than London, using only tuition is slightly misleading
I am of two minds when it comes to this mild debate on whether one B-school is better than another. Having gone to a solid second-tier B-school (meaning it is a perennial Top 30 and an occasional Top 20 in the rankings), I am fairly sure the education I received was top notch, even relative to the Harvards and Whartons of the world. However, like many things in life, it is frequently about reputation, and the Harvards and Whartons have the better reputations, and therefore, their grads will be more highly sought, and will likely be better paid. It may not be fair, but that's just the way it is.
Some schools also have reputations for being better for finance, or for marketing, or for what have you. Some schools are known as "quant" schools, or might have a strong economics bent, while others are known as favoring the case study method. Some schools also may not have strong national reputations, but may have strong reputations locally. In general, if one were choosing a B-school, I'd obviously advocate going to the one with the strongest reputation, but of course, it really depends on the person's situation and goals.
Some schools also have reputations for being better for finance, or for marketing, or for what have you. Some schools are known as "quant" schools, or might have a strong economics bent, while others are known as favoring the case study method. Some schools also may not have strong national reputations, but may have strong reputations locally. In general, if one were choosing a B-school, I'd obviously advocate going to the one with the strongest reputation, but of course, it really depends on the person's situation and goals.
Well written.homonger said:
One has to ask what the MBA is for. If it's for the reputation, networking, climbing the ladder, then don't bother unless it's top tier. If you want to learn, then pick the school that suits you and don't think of it as a career investment, but a personal one. If you really want to learn business, open your own business.
I really don't give a shit about this thread all I'm trying to do is get five in a row on the Lounge.
Some very interesting and intelligent responses, how rare.
Again "this school is better, preferred" argument. Although my experience is
two different disciplines (engineering, arts), I assert from accredited,
established schools there is no such thing as "better" opportunity from
"better" school, it's all the individual person. Is it really not the case in
business schools too?
The evidence offered multiple times of MBA school being all about contacts is
new one to me. Interesting concept, but doesn't it depend on the quality of
your co-registrants and their relative success?
I have interviewed and worked with graduates from engineering and design
"super star" and "no-name" schools. The only truism were three things:
evidence of thoroughness of work; 3rd party recommendation or reference
check; if the person had other consuming interest or passion in life, it's a
cliche but a renaissance person. People who had first two were hired, those
with renaissance factor advanced, some very quickly.
Again "this school is better, preferred" argument. Although my experience is
two different disciplines (engineering, arts), I assert from accredited,
established schools there is no such thing as "better" opportunity from
"better" school, it's all the individual person. Is it really not the case in
business schools too?
The evidence offered multiple times of MBA school being all about contacts is
new one to me. Interesting concept, but doesn't it depend on the quality of
your co-registrants and their relative success?
I have interviewed and worked with graduates from engineering and design
"super star" and "no-name" schools. The only truism were three things:
evidence of thoroughness of work; 3rd party recommendation or reference
check; if the person had other consuming interest or passion in life, it's a
cliche but a renaissance person. People who had first two were hired, those
with renaissance factor advanced, some very quickly.
Sukdeep said:
I'm curious to in how reputable their MBA program is, i thought it was up there but a few members have not mentioned it on the same level and Ivey and Rotman. So where does Schulich rank? Kind of off topic but when it comes to law schools of course UofT would take the cake, but how about Osgoode? Where would Osgoode rank in Ontario? and Canada? and International?
My 2 cents
I have an MBA (from Ivey, although it was Western back then), as do both my brothers. Here are my thoughts:
1) Examine why you want the MBA. If you need it to get into the position you want, then by all means go for it. My older brother got his specifically to get into investment banking, where the MBA is pretty much the minimum entrance requirment. If you are doing it just because you feel it will give your career a boost, proceed with caution. My younger brother is doing pretty much the same stuff as he was before his MBA, for pretty much the same money (but now he has "credibility" in his words - expensive credibility at that)
2) Getting your employer to pay for an executive MBA is great, but be prepared for a very tough couple of years. Most employers will not cut you a great deal of slack in your job, and the course workload is very intense. The trickiest part of this situation is achieving some kind of balance.
3) The school does and doesn't matter. You aren't going to learn any secret "tricks" at Ivey or Rotman or Queen's or Harvard for that matter - the toolbox you graduate with is pretty much the same (and at the end of a long day, you can get the same toolbox with some time, discipline and a library card). However, the school's reputation can help in landing a position after graduation. As well, some schools are going to have better staff in some disciplines than others.
The big thing to keep in mind is that 6 months after someone hires you, they aren't going to care where your MBA is from - it is very much what have you done lately. (I think this speaks to point 1) This is particulalry true if you are working in a smaller company.
Oh yeah, if you do go, remember that you have to change jobs every 2-3 years, otherwise you have to give your degree back for spoiling the reputation of MBA's (get it, make some changes based on your advanced knowledge, get out before the s*** hits the fan)
I have an MBA (from Ivey, although it was Western back then), as do both my brothers. Here are my thoughts:
1) Examine why you want the MBA. If you need it to get into the position you want, then by all means go for it. My older brother got his specifically to get into investment banking, where the MBA is pretty much the minimum entrance requirment. If you are doing it just because you feel it will give your career a boost, proceed with caution. My younger brother is doing pretty much the same stuff as he was before his MBA, for pretty much the same money (but now he has "credibility" in his words - expensive credibility at that)
2) Getting your employer to pay for an executive MBA is great, but be prepared for a very tough couple of years. Most employers will not cut you a great deal of slack in your job, and the course workload is very intense. The trickiest part of this situation is achieving some kind of balance.
3) The school does and doesn't matter. You aren't going to learn any secret "tricks" at Ivey or Rotman or Queen's or Harvard for that matter - the toolbox you graduate with is pretty much the same (and at the end of a long day, you can get the same toolbox with some time, discipline and a library card). However, the school's reputation can help in landing a position after graduation. As well, some schools are going to have better staff in some disciplines than others.
The big thing to keep in mind is that 6 months after someone hires you, they aren't going to care where your MBA is from - it is very much what have you done lately. (I think this speaks to point 1) This is particulalry true if you are working in a smaller company.
Oh yeah, if you do go, remember that you have to change jobs every 2-3 years, otherwise you have to give your degree back for spoiling the reputation of MBA's (get it, make some changes based on your advanced knowledge, get out before the s*** hits the fan)
oh wow, now im totally confused.. what should I do?
I'm going to graduate with a degree in economics this year.. I've done every stats/econometrics class available, I've taken almost all of the economics classes available, including the intro to masters level micro and macro classes. Plus for my electives I've kept them all to the business side to help with an mba; finance, accounting, marketing, strategy, ops management, information systems, organizational behaviour. I don't want to work for 2 years post graduation, I'd want to go straight into an mba because I've run my own business for the last 6 years while working in computers. I know that's a lot to ask for though..
I was hoping that would be enough to get accepted, I really don't know.. I'm trying my best though.. which would be the best school should I apply to? My goal was to have a well rounded background upon graduation, with a focus on quantitative analysis, and monetary economics.
Suggestions???
Thanks
I'm going to graduate with a degree in economics this year.. I've done every stats/econometrics class available, I've taken almost all of the economics classes available, including the intro to masters level micro and macro classes. Plus for my electives I've kept them all to the business side to help with an mba; finance, accounting, marketing, strategy, ops management, information systems, organizational behaviour. I don't want to work for 2 years post graduation, I'd want to go straight into an mba because I've run my own business for the last 6 years while working in computers. I know that's a lot to ask for though..
I was hoping that would be enough to get accepted, I really don't know.. I'm trying my best though.. which would be the best school should I apply to? My goal was to have a well rounded background upon graduation, with a focus on quantitative analysis, and monetary economics.
Suggestions???
Thanks
I may have missed something from all of these lucid and helpful posts, but is an executive MBA any less an exp./ value, other than 35 hours a week vs. 80 hrs., say from U of T, Ivey, Schulich or Queens, as they are in the same price league?
Roger: the big difference between the executive and regular MBA is the experience of the students, which is a key factor in determining what you get out of it. There are often experienced people in a regular MBA, but EMBA students tend to be older and in more senior positions.
Your undergraduate courses in economics and econometrics will likely have been much more advanced than similar course in an MBA program. When I was a graduate student I used to tutor MBA students for their economics and statistics courses and I really can’t see anyone with a decent undergraduate degree in economics learning anything about these subjects in an MBA program. Many programs will likely give you the option of advanced standing in these courses. The only reason for you to focus on quantitative analysis, and monetary economics in an MBA program would be to cut down on your work load while getting top marks.babyface2 said:oh wow, now im totally confused.. what should I do?
I'm going to graduate with a degree in economics this year.. I've done every stats/econometrics class available, I've taken almost all of the economics classes available, including the intro to masters level micro and macro classes. Plus for my electives I've kept them all to the business side to help with an mba; finance, accounting, marketing, strategy, ops management, information systems, organizational behaviour. I don't want to work for 2 years post graduation, I'd want to go straight into an mba because I've run my own business for the last 6 years while working in computers. I know that's a lot to ask for though..
I was hoping that would be enough to get accepted, I really don't know.. I'm trying my best though.. which would be the best school should I apply to? My goal was to have a well rounded background upon graduation, with a focus on quantitative analysis, and monetary economics.
Suggestions???
Thanks
value proposition?
Are there any other downsides to EMBA, other than cost?
Has anyone here done the EMBA route and want to share the pros and cons?
On the plus side, the 'networking' benefit may be better in EMBA.C Dick said:
Are there any other downsides to EMBA, other than cost?
Has anyone here done the EMBA route and want to share the pros and cons?
Thanks guys!
Thank you all for your (very insightful!) comments in this thread. Much appreciated. I have decided to audit a few classes from the various schools that offer MBAs in Toronto. I'm also going to the MBA fair on Thursday at the Convention Centre.
The comments in the thread pretty much affirmed my own pre-conceptions on the MBA - it's a good course but you don't necessarily learn things that you wouldn't otherwise by just doing your job properly and paying attention. On the other hand, networking is not to be underestimated and sometimes it's just good to have a basic academic underpinning to the situations you face at work.
So for me, slow & steady for the moment. I'll do some more research and then make a decision for the school year that starts Sept 2006.
Thanks again to everyone who posted.
Thank you all for your (very insightful!) comments in this thread. Much appreciated. I have decided to audit a few classes from the various schools that offer MBAs in Toronto. I'm also going to the MBA fair on Thursday at the Convention Centre.
The comments in the thread pretty much affirmed my own pre-conceptions on the MBA - it's a good course but you don't necessarily learn things that you wouldn't otherwise by just doing your job properly and paying attention. On the other hand, networking is not to be underestimated and sometimes it's just good to have a basic academic underpinning to the situations you face at work.
So for me, slow & steady for the moment. I'll do some more research and then make a decision for the school year that starts Sept 2006.
Thanks again to everyone who posted.
MBA fair
I had been to one of those MBA fairs and it's quite depressing for me. Everyone there said his/her school was the best but when I asked is there any sort of guarantee of a job, I never got a good answer - looks like they want to take your $70k investment without offering anything in return. Anyway I have no quantifiable management experience so I guess I won't be accepted into the best b-schools.
I had been to one of those MBA fairs and it's quite depressing for me. Everyone there said his/her school was the best but when I asked is there any sort of guarantee of a job, I never got a good answer - looks like they want to take your $70k investment without offering anything in return. Anyway I have no quantifiable management experience so I guess I won't be accepted into the best b-schools.
