ISO - Opinions on MBA

[xarir]

I'm sort of toying with the idea of getting an MBA. So far I've limited my search to Ontario schools (just out of simplicity more than anything else). The cost of the various programs are basically the same and the better schools are all properly accredited so international recognition of the degree is pretty much assured. Most of the schools I'm interested in offer things like international semesters, profs who have real world experience, decent ratio of faculty to student etc.

To TERBites who have an MBA or are in the process of getting one, what would you do differently (if anything) in choosing a school? For those who have an MBA, do you find that your earning power is such that it offsets both the costs of doing it as well as the disruption to your life while you were in the program? Would you realistically be where you are now sans MBA? Can you honestly say that you learned a lot and could only learn what you did in an MBA program?

Any words of wisdom from the TERB collective?

 

[phelan]

Depending on what your background you have that would help me greatly.

These days, there are just too many MBA graduates out there...They are a dime a dozen according to the Harvard review. Finding MBA grads is fairly easy and most US based companies will pay you accordingly. Basically, unless you get an MBA from say Harvard or Princeton your MBA salary range will be like any other joe that has an MBA say from Niagara University or University of Mass. No difference...

What I find more and more companies are looking for is not the MBA graduate but a MFA (Master's of Fine Arts). Keep in mind this ONLY applies if you have a business related degree already. If this applies to you than it will no doubt stick out on your resume more so than just an MBA as you have your standard Bachelor's Business degree behind that MFA. The reason being is that companies will look at that and honestly give you a second glance because you went back to do fine arts instead of a MBA, thus meaning your a more well rounded person. Not only that, with an MFA, you guarantee them that you are MUCH more creative than say the average MBA graduate.

But if the MFA doesn't work for you, what I would be looking at is completion time, how long does it take, how much funds does it take, will it take away time from family/friends? Will I have to commute, where will I stay, how many credits is required? Do I have to take the GRE, LSAT exam etc. All those add up in price and opportunity cost which only you can determine.

Hope it helps.

 

[Keebler Elf]

I would also chip in that, unless your employer is paying for it, an MBA might not be everything it's cracked up to be.

I've heard more senior managers lamenting too many MBAs rather than too few, especially when people are getting MBAs in jobs that don't really require it.

 

[Cobra1]

Focus on the key items

Firstly, the experience you have now, technically and undergraduate helps in landing a job post MBA - far too often people dont like what they are doing and decide an MBA will solve their problems - and it doesnt always do that. The best jobs go to the grads who have a background education that fits, good sales expereicne, deans list, good confidence and communication skills etc. Working at Chapters, doing an MBA at Ottawa U doesnt get you to CIBC World Markets (or the new hot shop Genuity)

Despite the myriad of Biz school ranking methods, there are only a few that really count. Getting hired, with a good salary, and leaving MBA with alot of knowledge and a great network of associates/friends. Depending on what you want to do - consider the school's strengths.

Ivey is the top school in Canada by far. Best learning process, and you will have a netwrok that is so extensive its unbelievable. When you meet another Ivey grad, you have a bond with them. ITs not easy, and you will be pushed to the wall - like forget an ouside life at all in the first year - but it will be the best experience of your life - and it is doable - the hard part is getting in - few fail. Harvard is the same - except the curriculum is suprisingly, not as tough as Ivey demand wise (I think its Ivey trying to be Harvard etc) - but you have a great network - unfortunately Harvards network is in the US and mostly NE US. Pick Ivey if you want to go into finance or consulting in Canada.

Rotman has come a long way - Joe donating the building has helped - but for a school as close to the financial centre of Canada - UofT has dropped the ball for so long - but is finally getting it right. Good if you want to stay in Toronto - but you dont tend to meet as many people or network like Ivey - still a good school on the rise.

York has moved up also - although still lacks cache

Queens and WilFred Lauier - decent schools - worth a look - especially from a technical background.

UBC if you want to specifically do Investment Management.

I think McGill is overrated - but still enjoys a good reputation - with the plus of living in Montreal with hot chicks and where hobbying is cheap.

While the other schools will probably give you some good biz knowledge - I am not sure if you really can consider it worth it - otehr than taking some time off and being a student again (still fun to do if you can). Possibly doing a CA will take you further - or a CFA for the financial industry.

There are some great schools in the US - Univ of Texas at Austin (not that expensive either), Stern (Columbia), Wharton (uPenn - Finance), Stanford - and they are cheaper than they were a few years ago !

I would really encourage you to spend a day at each school you inend to apply to - its worth it to find the rigfht one for you.

 

[MartiniGirls]

Employers tab

If you are in the position to be planning an MBA and are worried about offsetting costs you shoudl really be talking to your employer before looking at what the best program for you is. At my last employer (one of the three cell carriers) my entire wage level was offered a paid PT MBA program, but it was very strict as to which schools. My suggestion, if you are planning on commiting the time to so an MBA, spend a few years shopping yourself around to an employer that will pick up the tab, there are lots out there.
When I first read the thread title I looked in the terms guide somewhere between GFE and MSOG, yikes to much time spent on here.

 

[ice_dog]

There were threads on this topic, from time to time. I intiated one about two or three years ago. If I rememeber corrrectly, one SP of a reputable agency has an MBA

 

[ham2004]

http://www.athabascau.ca/

www.athabascau.ca is a distance learning school. I am currently working on my own MBA and find that the course is well organized.

I too have read that MBA's are worthless, but then so are most degrees. As a friend of mine with a "Dead Languges" degree told me once. The only time a degree is of any use is when you are looking for a raise.

 

[UMustang]

Ivey is the top school in Canada by far. Best learning process, and you will have a netwrok that is so extensive its unbelievable. When you meet another Ivey grad, you have a bond with them. ITs not easy, and you will be pushed to the wall - like forget an ouside life at all in the first year - but it will be the best experience of your life - and it is doable - the hard part is getting in - few fail. Harvard is the same - except the curriculum is suprisingly, not as tough as Ivey demand wise (I think its Ivey trying to be Harvard etc) - but you have a great network - unfortunately Harvards network is in the US and mostly NE US. Pick Ivey if you want to go into finance or consulting in Canada.

Rotman has come a long way - Joe donating the building has helped - but for a school as close to the financial centre of Canada - UofT has dropped the ball for so long - but is finally getting it right. Good if you want to stay in Toronto - but you dont tend to meet as many people or network like Ivey - still a good school on the rise.

Only because I'm biased (I'm currently at Ivey)
Most of the stuff you mentioned about Ivey is bang on. It's an intense learning experience, lots of hard work, lots of late nights. You get pushed hard the first semester, so far the work load is a little lighter but there are additional pressures on you (read : summer employment). However, a few points of disagreement/clarification
1) Ivey/Harvard. There has been a relationship between the two since day one. The school is modelled after Harvard's teaching methodology
2) Careers in finance and consulting. I think that's a bit of a misnomer. Right after graduation I would agree, but if you look at the alumni five, ten, twenty years after graduation, the areas of employment are far and wide. Ivey prouds itself on being a general management school, and that comes out in your second, third, fourth, etc job

As for Rotman, they've done a lot of work to improve their standing in rankings. Improvement in rankings, however, do not mean that they're a school on the rise (short term gains, maybe long term pain)

 

[homonger]

Sorry if I am rehashing some of what has already been said, but here's my 2 cents...

I have a love/hate relationship with my MBA. On one hand, I fully admit that much of any financial or professional success I may have achieved in my life, is very largely attributable to the fact that I have an MBA. On the other hand, I went and got my MBA because I thought it would help me make some money, because it was a relatively easy advanced degree to get, and because a lot of people I knew were doing it. I didn't, and never have, had a great love for business. When I was in school, my mother's friends would tell me I must be very smart if I were going to business school. My response was, "Thanks, but if I were very smart, I'd be working for NASA. Business school is for people who have nowhere else to go".

But as has been mentioned, it depends. I was only a year or two out of college, had no meaningful work experience, and was making squat. For me, going to B-school meant nothing but upside to my miserable life. If you are well established professionally, and are making good money, then the MBA probably won't enhance things much. Plus there is the whole disruption of your life thing.

Other factors to consider... as has been said, if you have a chance to go to a top brand name B-school, that will mean a lot more than if you go to a run of-the-mill-one. If you can get your employer to pay, then it seems like another reason to go. Keep in mind, however, that a lot of companies have stipulations that if they pay for your MBA, you are then obligated to stay there for a certain amount of time. I think these agreements can be challenged legally, but it is something to think about. Do you want to stay at your company indefinitely? Is there a promotion and higher earning potential if you stay at your company but now have an MBA? If and when you change jobs, the MBA will definitely be an asset then.

I am pretty sure that every study shows that the investment in an MBA definitely pays off in spades. But again, there might be differences depending on what school you attend. I will add that b-school is really not very hard. My toughest class was Accounting, believe it or not. Ironically, I actually flunked Intro to Economics when I was an undergrad, but somehow managed to get a Masters in Economics in business school. Finally, I will say I have really used very little of my formal B-school training in my career. The MBA is essentially a brand for you, that is, a certification to employers that the owner has something going for him/her. It got me into some doors, but after that, it was all me, for better or worse.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Mba

My opinion is pretty much the same as the others......get the MBA if it will take you somewhere you can't already get to and its somewhere you want to be. That being said, an MBA is worthless in terms of an immediate career jump if you don't have meaningful work experience before you get it.

It amazes me the number of MBA's with little or no work experience, either they did and MBA immediately after they did their undergrad or after 1-2 years at an entry level position.

As my father said to me, an MBA gets you an invitation to the dance (i.e. a job interview) but you still need to have some moves to land the girl.

 

[MuffinMuncher]

The previous posters have been remarkedly lucid and on point (this is TERB after all and we make a joke about everything), so I dont have much to add.

I started my MBA, took 5 years off, then went back to finish. There are some aspects of it that I have applied in my professional career, but most of it is knowledge that you already have from your undergraduate education, or knowledge you acquire through experience. For me, it was simply another stripe on my sleeve.

At least in the States, many of the best executive level positions require an MBA to even interview and be considered. It's an artificial way of culling the herd of applicants. To NOT have it is a disadvantage in changing jobs more so than HAVING it is an advantage in performing your responsibilities more effectively.

 

[Cobra1]

1) Ivey/Harvard. There has been a relationship between the two since day one. The school is modelled after Harvard's teaching methodology
QUOTE]

The HBAs that go to Harvard for MBA golf on Wed and Friday afternoons in their first year. Can you imagine doing that at Ivey !

 

[rama putri]

Unless you're getting one from a top school like Harvard, Kellogg, Stern, etc... (York, for example, isn't a top MBA school - only three in Canada - Western, McGill and UofT), I wouldn't bother.

I have an MBA, but only because it's from a top school (Kellogg) and my company paid the $100k it cost to get one plus the expenses. Otherwise I would've passed on it.

 

[Howdat]

Unless you're getting one from a top school like Harvard, Kellogg, Stern, etc... (York, for example, isn't a top MBA school - only three in Canada - Western, McGill and UofT), I wouldn't bother.

U of T has tried very hard over the past 3 years to attract some new talent (prof's) with not much luck. Western, Queen's, & McGill are top in my opinion with international recognition. If you had to choose, go with one of these.

 

[The Brus]

I received my MBA about twenty years ago in the U.S. It cost a small fortune, but the usefulness in everyday business is suspect. If you are an accountant or an engineer, it lends pizzazz to your business card and allows you to brag about it. Otherwise, your bachelor's degree is more than adequate.

If you feel that you have to have a post-graduate degree, why don't you proceed directly to a doctorate.

 

[365724]

catch 22?

I notice a pattern. Someone suggested if you are earning a bunch of $$ you don't need a MBA. But if you are not earning a bunch, maybe with a non-executive position, how can you get into a MBA program in the first place? Let alone getting the MBA.

However I do agree the MBA must be of a famous brand name or I won't bother to spend the money and time.

 

[someone]

I’m coming from the prospective of an academic that every year has to teach some courses business students are required to take. I have fortunately managed to stay away from the MBA courses but some the people I work with have not been so lucky. Also, I remember tutoring MBA students when I was a graduate student.

My opinion of business programs and MBAs is very negative. MBAs are basically collections of undergraduate level courses grouped together and given graduate course numbers. You learn a little bit of a lot of areas (very basic statistics and economics, organization behavior, very basic finance and operations research, etc.) but little of anything in depth. I think that students are better off taking something serious that weeds out the less capable students, so you can show your ability. The thing about business programs is that the only hard part is getting accepted. Once you get in, I think you would have to be pretty bad to flunk out. This is doubly true for executive MBA programs which are even less serious than the regular ones and are basically just revenue sources for universities. I am sure that many here will disagree with me and I may even get a few flames but that is my opinion. If you alreay have a business undergrad, I would definitely not bother with an MBA.

 

[scubadoo]

An MBA can be very valuable because you really get a chance to build a good network of people that you work with over time. I started of with a BA from Carleton, added a BPA, then finally did my MBA at Queens 6 years ago. This was after working in the private sector for 15 years. Having a MBA plus work experience is valuable to get you to that next level. The relationships that I built during the course of taking my MBA lead me to a wonderful public sector job. Some others things that look good on a resume are professional desginations such as CA, ACMT (now CMO) etc and also membership in professional organizations such as APEX.

As for schools, UofT, Western, Queens and McGill in that order would be the ones that I would look at if you really want an MBA that will be recognized nationally and internationally.

 

[365724]

my take

I agree with what you said, a folk who learnt his skills on the 'street' must be way better than another who learnt most from b-school; my undergrad education did not teach me many marketable skills; however human resources only believe in degrees - what can you do.

 

[C Dick]

I did my MBA at Rotman, I should have gone to Ivey instead. I have the same job I had before, I did the MBA to learn about the theory of business, and I think it was worthwhile for that, it made me better at my job.

I have had a few people say that my MBA gave them a favourable view of doing business with me, generally from finance types.