Is the UN really relevant??

langeweile

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Unfortunately we haven't bent our individual wills to the benefit of
all. Sounds socialist doesn't it? But the social contract requires this

There is the problem with socialism.
The term "That all man are created equal" only applies to equality in the eyes of the law. Human nature is not created equal. Every person is an individual with his own dreams and wants.
Socialisms and Communisms downfall is, to not accept these simpple truths.
 

assoholic

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..of course the US has to twist some arms to get it done, some say because they did not want them to imigrate to the States.
 

langeweile

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But there is also the class/cast
system where the privileged by birth may not be superior
in ability but reign over the more gifted/talented because of
the luck of who their parents are. Example: GWB.

Don,
You lost me on that one.
Presidents in the USA are elected by vote. While there might be discussions on the validity of the electoral college and the need to install common sytems (as in machines), there can be no doubt about the freedom to vote.
To imply that Bush got elected because of his heritage is a little far fetched.
If you want to make personal wealth and fame the lithmus test for quailification to run for office. Their would be very few people left.
Even Jefferson and Washington would fail that test and so would most Senators including Kerry.
Politicians are elected by people and whoever get's the most votes wins(well most of the time). In essence "Every country get's the goverment it deserves".
If you don't want "rich kids" to run the country vote them out.

I just don't buy the myth of the "Corporation Conspiracy".
The reason why the USA is what it is today, is because the majority wants it that way.
Anything else than free elections is anarchy or dictatorship.
 

langeweile

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Don,

Another thought.
It is easy to take away the power of a corporation.
STOP BUYING THE PRODUCTS.
Your thoughts on this remind me of the people that complain that athletes make too much money, while sitting in NIKE jeans, ADDIDAS pants, REEBOK shoes and a STARTER hat on the stands of a football game and eating an OSCAR MEYER hot dog, just to wash it down with a BUDWEISER. DUH
Were do tou think the teams get the money from to pay such salaries....from you the fan.
 

Ranger68

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Is the UN really relevant??

bbking said:
And you would bemistaken here - regarding Rwanda - all Kofi Annan can do is bring it before the Security Council, which he did and the Security Council choose to do nothing, hardly Annan's fault.
As for accomplishments - it's not all about military action. The UN is responsible for many agency groups and treaties - Unicef, IAEA are amongst several agencies founded by the UN. There are groups that set up schools, dig wells and set up hospitals. The UN put through a Universal Human Rights Code which is now part of International Law and the UN has an agency that investigates Human Rights abuses, which recently concluded it's report to the UN about the BS going on in the Sudan. It was the UN that put thru the NPT which has slowed the progress of miltary nuclear tech.
The UN is only as good as Countries allow it to be but for my money it has been one of mankinds best investments in itself.


bbk


bbk
No, I'm not wrong.

Annan was D'Allaire's direct superior, and FAILED to bring any of the information that he was sent about the impending genocide before ANYBODY.
On this fact, the record is quite clear, although of course, Annan claims he did inform higher-ups.

Just to set the record straight.
 

Ranger68

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Just to be perfectly clear:
In his memoir, 'UNvanquished', Boutros-Ghali writes that Annan never told him about the 'Dallaire fax', and that he first learned about it in 1996.

This would be hard to reconcile if what you claim, that Annan brought information before the Security Council, were true.

Of course, it's not true, what you claimed.

Not that I remotely believe that Boutros-Ghali knew nothing. He almost certainly knew *everything*. Just not from some phantom presentation Annan made to the SC.
 

Ranger68

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bbking said:
And you would bemistaken here - regarding Rwanda - all Kofi Annan can do is bring it before the Security Council, which he did and the Security Council choose to do nothing, hardly Annan's fault.
What's the misunderstanding? Your statement above is totally wrong.

I'm telling you that Annan, at the time, was, along with Maurice Baril, Romeo D'Allaire's direct superior, and that he was informed by D'Allaire on several occasions (most notably, the infamous "D'Allaire Fax") of the impending genocide.

That Annan and Baril did NOTHING is a matter of public record. The Secretary General at the time, Boutros-Ghali, stated that he didn't even learn of the *existence* of this information until years later, never mind the actual content. This speaks partially to Boutros-Ghalis' prevarication, and partially to Annan's total, bewildering, inexcusable lack of effort. Annan did NOT bring this information to the attention of the Security Council.

If there is fault to be portioned to the UN, Annan must accept his lot before, and perhaps in place of, the SC.
 

Ranger68

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Don, I don't know how much "we" knew at the time, although I agree with your general sentiment.

I think only those in Rwanda, and those who had had personal contact with people in Rwanda, were *fully* aware of what was happening.

I think it's a bit of dissimilitude to say that "we all knew" and thereby not attempt to apportion responsibility for letting it happen. If there was no "will to respond" from the general North American population, perhaps it was because most of us were being force-fed daily updates on OJ's trial rather than watching or even learning about the unfolding tragedy. That things were happening in Rwanda there was certainly awareness, and I think it's fair to say that smugness and racism played a role in shading our perceptions. However, I think it's also fair to say that *very few* people in North America were remotely aware of the *scope* of the crimes being perpetrated.

That Annan knew *exactly* what was going on and had "no will to respond" is, again, a matter of public record.
 

Ranger68

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No problem.
The UN *had* sent troops to Rwanda - to monitor the ceasefire. This was ahead of the genocide.
 

oldjones

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Essentially: There were UN troops on the ground to monitor the ceasefire agreed to (sorta) by the government and rebel forces. The UN's Peacekeeping Office—at that time headed by Annan—wouldn't countenance the extension of the mandate to protect civilians in danger of massacre. Indeed, just communicating w/ NY was a struggle, and Gen. Dallaire at times seemed to be using the media, who appeared to have no such difficulties, to send his messages to HQ. Nonetheless he stuck to his mission, which the UN continued to define narrowly.

However it would be wrong to assign the blame to Annan personally; he was, and is, just a swivel servant. The failure of leadership was, and is, a political one; it took the Security Council forever to wake up and get involved. That is a failure of the USA, Britain, France, China, Russia who have always preferred the UN to be an ineffective talk-shop that doesn't get in the way of their freedom to act without restraint to suit their own selfish ends. Need I mention Iraq?

Canada did have some troops there, as did others, notably Belgium. It was the massacre of some of these troops that finally got the Permanent Members to wake up and do something. I think the whole sorry incident demonstrates—as does a certain recent war—that it is the national leadership of the US and the other powers that is irrelevant in a globalized world. Sadly irrelevant does is not the same as powerless.

It may be that we'll need to replace the imperfect UN as we replaced the League of Nations with a more effective body. Given the track records of Bush, Blair, Chirac, Putin and whoever runs China, I would expect we'll have to wait for them to create same sort of catastrophe that led to the founding of the UN. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists still has the Doomsday clock set at seven minutes to midnight
 

onthebottom

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Is the UN really relevant??

WoodPeckr said:
Originally posted by Ranger68
Kofi Annan .... was this the same Kofi Annan who turned his back on the situation in Rwanda?
Yeah, I thought so.

__________________________________________________

Hummmm....... kinda like the way Dubya is turning his back on N Korea, who is calling him a lunatic regularly lately & Iran who is 'flipping him the bird' and proceeding on with their Nuclear Weapons Program ( A NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM THEY REALLY SAY THEY HAVE) unlike Saddam who never had one, along with those WMD.
peckr, pay attention - the US is working with nations in the region (China, Russia, Japan, South Korea) to negotiate with North Korea. N. Korea would like unilateral talks with the US but we are working in a multilateral way - a good thing I think.

OTB
 

assoholic

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..The United Nations works well as a relief agency, it is toothless.
Bush in his speech proposed giving it some teeth, however nobody trusts the US any more so it probably won't happen.
 

banshie

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langeweile said:

Presidents in the USA are elected by vote. While there might be discussions on the validity of the electoral college and the need to install common sytems (as in machines), there can be no doubt about the freedom to vote.
To imply that Bush got elected because of his heritage is a little far fetched.
The problem with that argument is that I can only vote (effectively) for one of two people, both of whom come from the highest "caste". You don't get to be the candidate of either party unless you are one of the privileged few. Lincoln went from "log cabin to White House", but that doesn't happen anymore.
 

Ranger68

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DonQuixote said:
Didn't Canada send troops there?
My recollection is that the commander of the troops
suffered an emotional meltdown because of what he witnessed.
Can anyone help me out on this issue.

Don
Canada had NO troops there, although the UN *monitoring* mission was led by Canadian General Romeo D'Allaire. Yes, he has suffered greatly by his experiences.
He wrote a book about his story - "Shake Hands with the Devil".
 

Ranger68

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oldjones said:
Essentially: There were UN troops on the ground to monitor the ceasefire agreed to (sorta) by the government and rebel forces. The UN's Peacekeeping Office—at that time headed by Annan—wouldn't countenance the extension of the mandate to protect civilians in danger of massacre. Indeed, just communicating w/ NY was a struggle, and Gen. Dallaire at times seemed to be using the media, who appeared to have no such difficulties, to send his messages to HQ. Nonetheless he stuck to his mission, which the UN continued to define narrowly.

However it would be wrong to assign the blame to Annan personally; he was, and is, just a swivel servant. The failure of leadership was, and is, a political one; it took the Security Council forever to wake up and get involved. That is a failure of the USA, Britain, France, China, Russia who have always preferred the UN to be an ineffective talk-shop that doesn't get in the way of their freedom to act without restraint to suit their own selfish ends. Need I mention Iraq?

Canada did have some troops there, as did others, notably Belgium. It was the massacre of some of these troops that finally got the Permanent Members to wake up and do something. I think the whole sorry incident demonstrates—as does a certain recent war—that it is the national leadership of the US and the other powers that is irrelevant in a globalized world. Sadly irrelevant does is not the same as powerless.

It may be that we'll need to replace the imperfect UN as we replaced the League of Nations with a more effective body. Given the track records of Bush, Blair, Chirac, Putin and whoever runs China, I would expect we'll have to wait for them to create same sort of catastrophe that led to the founding of the UN. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists still has the Doomsday clock set at seven minutes to midnight
Annan signally failed to inform superiors in the UN of what was happening - what his subordinate, D'Allaire told him was happening.

This is not to excuse those world leaders who were well aware of the situation.

Annan still deserves a great deal of blame. He FAILED to inform the Security Council. Period.

Canada, as far as I know, had NO troops there at the time of D'Allaire's mission. (Except D'Allaire, of course, and his personal staff.)
 

oldjones

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Ah banshie if you're electing a monarch, history demonstrates that the more choice the more troubles. Even two is sometimes too many. and lot's of losers never lived to become threats to the Crown. Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition is one of the achievements of the British Constitution.

A system which makes the executive power subject to the will of the majority—the parliamentary system—can manage with proportional representation and/or many parties.

But when you're electing your king, there can really be only one party. Look at the mess Clinton faced because his most bloodthirsty opponents survived and had no forum but impeachment.

As you say, it's the "caste" party, and it explains perfectly why Kerry voted for Dubya's War.
 

onthebottom

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banshie said:
The problem with that argument is that I can only vote (effectively) for one of two people, both of whom come from the highest "caste". You don't get to be the candidate of either party unless you are one of the privileged few. Lincoln went from "log cabin to White House", but that doesn't happen anymore.
How about Clinton - he was born to a broken home without a lot of money in AR for heavens sake you don't get much more common than that - he made it completely on skill alone. That white trash upbringing may explain his behavior later in life but you have to hand it to anyone who is so self made.

OTB
 
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