Oh ya, that makes me feel much safer. Only 5% of weapons of mass destruction were unaccounted for. What if one of those 5% found their way to NYC?!
Iraq war fails to meet human rights criteria
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And I suppose that bit of information came from one of your foolproof intelligence agencies as well.ocean976124 said:
Iran is the #1 exporter of terrorism in the Middle East.
Well, it seems we did stand by as he was trying to take over Iran. Even helped him. But that's neither here nor there.procket said:So Ick,
Would you have been happy to sit by and do nothing as Saddam took over Iran and Kuwait?
Pay attention to my point. He was put in his place 13 years ago and hadn't been heard from since. Until, of course, Bush wanted to satisfy his delusional dreams. If Hitler were still in power today and was now no worse than Saddam Hussein, the logic that we needed to get rid of him because of what he did back 60 years ago would be idiotic.Tell the people of Kuwait he's a paper tiger. Every paper tiger gets their start somewhere and if not challenged, they get bolder and brasher and can gain strength. Guess you never stood up to the bullys in your schoolyard days. Who cares as long as you aren't the victim right?
Thank you. So why go after Saddam Hussein? Bin Laden is (repeat, IS) a serious threat. And has been one continuously. Saddam wanted to be, but knew better. Answer this. If we had 130,000 troops in Afghanistan, and spent $150 billion going after him, would the chances of having caught Bin Laden be greater or smaller? Instead, we're dealing with the ridiculous mess caused by going after the guy who perhaps, maybe, possibly, might have, wanted to kill some Americans, if he were ever able to possibly, maybe someday develop the means to do so. If that's how you want this country to be run, then fine. Nice job.I'd say our initial thought on Osama bin Laden was that he too was a paper tiger. Several bombings and unprovoked attacks later....we now realize he is a serious threat.
HAH! To which even if they were still around (which given our intelligence, according to you, is unlikely anyways.....so how can we expect him to account for things he never had????) they'd be rendered useless due to how old they'd be.ocean976124 said:Oh ya, that makes me feel much safer. Only 5% of weapons of mass destruction were unaccounted for. What if one of those 5% found their way to NYC?!
Apparently you don't get what war is all about Ocean. Go into one some time. War is something that if you're going to get yourself into, you better be damn sure you have your facts straight and ducks in a row. There's no guessing when it comes to war. People are dead. Blown up. Both innocents and the guilty. Fathers are gone, kids are gone, sisters, mothers, daughters.....gone. All because George Bush, and people like you, had a guess. Sorry, guesses don't cut it when we're dealing with killing people. And if you don't wanna believe me, then read up on the rules of engagement that our military follows. It's quite simple.
Ick,
What do you mean MIGHT want to kill some Americans? I don't think there is much doubt about that but then again, I don't have access to the priviledged intel reports you must have. Saddam would like to kill Americans as well as the Shiites in his own country. Again though, I guess YOU aren't a Shiite or Iraqi so hell with them. To just let the guy go unchecked would be idiotic. To let him continue to play the UN games he was playing would be idiotic and not to mention a little irresponsible. Did you know or think prior to the war that Saddam didn't have WMD??? As I also mentioned before, he had plenty of time playing the UN games prior to the war to hide or move WMD that he may have had and we know he has had in the past. I can't prove that is what happened, but you sure as hell can't prove that it didn't either.
I guess if Hitler had told you in the middle of WWII that he was going to change his ways, call his troops back and release the jews, you would have packed up and gone home and not given it a second thought. Putting any trust in what guys like Saddam or Hitler say......now that is truly idiotic. No, Saddam hasn't done what Hitler did and I hope someone will continue to make sure he doesn't get that chance.
What do you mean MIGHT want to kill some Americans? I don't think there is much doubt about that but then again, I don't have access to the priviledged intel reports you must have. Saddam would like to kill Americans as well as the Shiites in his own country. Again though, I guess YOU aren't a Shiite or Iraqi so hell with them. To just let the guy go unchecked would be idiotic. To let him continue to play the UN games he was playing would be idiotic and not to mention a little irresponsible. Did you know or think prior to the war that Saddam didn't have WMD??? As I also mentioned before, he had plenty of time playing the UN games prior to the war to hide or move WMD that he may have had and we know he has had in the past. I can't prove that is what happened, but you sure as hell can't prove that it didn't either.
I guess if Hitler had told you in the middle of WWII that he was going to change his ways, call his troops back and release the jews, you would have packed up and gone home and not given it a second thought. Putting any trust in what guys like Saddam or Hitler say......now that is truly idiotic. No, Saddam hasn't done what Hitler did and I hope someone will continue to make sure he doesn't get that chance.
I love it, I really do. First you say we should trust UNSCOM then you knock UNSCOM's estimate about how much biological and chemical weapons Saddam had produced.Ickabod said:HAH! To which even if they were still around (which given our intelligence, according to you, is unlikely anyways.....so how can we expect him to account for things he never had????) they'd be rendered useless due to how old they'd be.
Apparently you don't get what war is all about Ocean. Go into one some time. War is something that if you're going to get yourself into, you better be damn sure you have your facts straight and ducks in a row. There's no guessing when it comes to war. People are dead. Blown up. Both innocents and the guilty. Fathers are gone, kids are gone, sisters, mothers, daughters.....gone. All because George Bush, and people like you, had a guess. Sorry, guesses don't cut it when we're dealing with killing people. And if you don't wanna believe me, then read up on the rules of engagement that our military follows. It's quite simple.
So which is it? Do we trust UNSCOM's estimates and decisions or don't we?
Well, this is a bit silly. If you think Iran isn't the major player in Middle Eastern terrorism then there's really no talking to you. I don't think that fact has ever been disputed by any nation.*d* said:And I suppose that bit of information came from one of your foolproof intelligence agencies as well.
Oh poor innocent peace loving Iran...
And you're apparently not an American soldier stuck with your butt in downtown Baghdad....so the hell with them. Is that it? To address other points in your post that i won't go through the crap of quoting, i was all for this war back in Sept of '02. I had somewhat of an epiphany to change my mind. I was slowly catching on to the fact (obvious fact, i might add) that Bush was lying us into the thing. Which didn't bother me until i got a bit of a dose, albeit a small one, of the reality of war by watching Black Hawk Down. I'm sorry, watching that movie, i lost the ability to allow myself to allow people to be lied into that situation no matter how noble the ends may turn out. How about i lie you into a war procket? Wanna go?procket said:Again though, I guess YOU aren't a Shiite or Iraqi so hell with them.
I can prove there wasn't much of a lick from anyone touting a war against Saddam Hussein until Bush started spewing this WMD crapola. Even after 9/11. Nothing. Not a peep. Then Bush starts lying and all of a sudden the yahoo chest thumpers are out for blood while sitting in the comfort of their living rooms. Give me a break.To just let the guy go unchecked would be idiotic. To let him continue to play the UN games he was playing would be idiotic and not to mention a little irresponsible. Did you know or think prior to the war that Saddam didn't have WMD??? As I also mentioned before, he had plenty of time playing the UN games prior to the war to hide or move WMD that he may have had and we know he has had in the past. I can't prove that is what happened, but you sure as hell can't prove that it didn't either.
That argument is weak. As evil as Saddam was, the fact seems to be that his evil nature was, for the past decade, as muted as it had been in the entire 30 odd years of his leadership. As i said in another post, what would be idiotic is going after Hitler in 1955 for what he did in 1940.I guess if Hitler had told you in the middle of WWII that he was going to change his ways, call his troops back and release the jews, you would have packed up and gone home and not given it a second thought. Putting any trust in what guys like Saddam or Hitler say......now that is truly idiotic. No, Saddam hasn't done what Hitler did and I hope someone will continue to make sure he doesn't get that chance.
Um, i don't believe i knocked UNSCOM. I believe i suggested that based on your logic of bad intelligence, we don't know if there was anything unaccounted for or not. According to you, it's totally possible that what we say is unaccounted for may never have existed. Not quite sure how we would expect Iraq to account for it then.....but that's ok, just bomb 'em. We don't need to be right, because after all, we're America dammit!!ocean976124 said:I love it, I really do. First you say we should trust UNSCOM then you knock UNSCOM's estimate about how much biological and chemical weapons Saddam had produced.
So which is it? Do we trust UNSCOM's estimates and decisions or don't we?
Typcial conservative tactic, by the way. Say we said things we didn't say just so you can say how wrong we are. Beautiful thing, really.
Once again, it was UNSCOM who came up with the estimates during its initial inspections of weapons and documents. UNSCOM during the Clinton administration was about to declare Iraq free of WMD (believing the Iraqi's that they had destroyed the estimates) and then they found a whole bunch of other materials.Ickabod said:Um, i don't believe i knocked UNSCOM. I believe i suggested that based on your logic of bad intelligence, we don't know if there was anything unaccounted for or not. According to you, it's totally possible that what we say is unaccounted for may never have existed. Not quite sure how we would expect Iraq to account for it then.....but that's ok, just bomb 'em. We don't need to be right, because after all, we're America dammit!!
Typcial conservative tactic, by the way. Say we said things we didn't say just so you can say how wrong we are. Beautiful thing, really.
And in 2003 we found ourselves in the same situation: do we believe the UNSCOM estimates from 1991-92 that are unaccounted for or do we trust that UNSCOM has not been fooled again by Saddam?
Thus my question was when do we believe UNSCOM and when do we not?
Bush erred on the side of caution given the potential disaster for inaction. Each nation seeks its own interests. Saddam never sought the interests of his own people and nation. If he did, he would have meticulously documented the entire dismantling of his WMD programs. The blame lays totally with Saddam for this war.
From here:ocean976124 said:Bush erred on the side of caution given the potential disaster for inaction. Each nation seeks its own interests. Saddam never sought the interests of his own people and nation. If he did, he would have meticulously documented the entire dismantling of his WMD programs. The blame lays totally with Saddam for this war.
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=16370
By the time UNSCOM ended its work in 1998, it had stripped Iraq of 90 to 95percent of its WMD. The missing 5 to 10 percent, Ritter said, was likely destroyed in the 1991 Gulf War, making 100 percent quantitative compliance with the U.N. disarmament mandate an impossible benchmark.
Other UNSCOM inspectors agreed, saying they were being pushed by U.S. planners to go on wild goose chases.
It's tough to account for things that are being blown to smithereens, especially when you didn't plan on having to account for them.
