If you got an SP pregnant, would you take responsibility for the child?

[fuji]

My point was that you lied to your wife as you were getting married, presumably in front of several witnesses

In what way did I lie?

and you would fuck your best friend's wife.

Do you remember the caveat on that? Or do you want to gloss over that part?

Would you have cheated on her the next day or would you have at least waited until after the honeymoon?

I cheated on her before we got married, and after. Not on our honeymoon though, because when you're on your honeymoon that's your time to spend with your wife. You don't go off for a day by yourself. That would be like spending valentine's with your girlfriend instead your wife--a completely classless act. Not cool.

I'm still waiting for you to describe what harm arises from sexual jealousy and how it's in any way worse than any number of other things we do all the time. There is a reason why sexual cheating is not a crime in this country, and that's because it's not universally seen as immoral. If it was, we'd make it illegal. We'd have laws against it. We'd have civil penalties.

In the case of child support, for example, we have made it a requirement that both parents support the child because we as a society virtually universally believe that parents have a moral obligation to care for their children.

 

[Malibook]

In what way did I lie?

Do you remember the caveat on that? Or do you want to gloss over that part?

What type of wedding ceremony did you have?
I'm pretty sure most have a stated and/or implied commitment to faithfulness and honour.

Do you mean the caveat that you would not get caught?
Most people's morals are not based on the probability of getting away with being a despicable dishonourable lowlife asshole.

 

[fuji]

Civil wedding, with a judge. I didn't recite any marriage vows other than the formalities required to be married.

That's irrelevant though--unless you are going to say that any lie of any kind is just as immoral as abandoning a child. So according to you, if someone tells their wife that they don't look fat in their new jeans, that's just as bad as child abandonment. You haven't been able to outline for me what harm arises from sexual jealousy. I'm pretty sure I can nail down solidly the harm that comes from abandoning a child.

As for the other topic:

The caveat was that it was impossible to be caught. Not just a probability. It was a hypothetical situation that cannot exist in the real world to test a moral question. I would not sleep with my friend's wife if there was a CHANCE of being caught, and I said that on that thread at that time, I believe in post #1.

 

[Malibook]

I'm still waiting for you to describe what harm arises from sexual jealousy and how it's in any way worse than any number of other things we do all the time. There is a reason why sexual cheating is not a crime in this country, and that's because it's not universally seen as immoral. If it was, we'd make it illegal. We'd have laws against it. We'd have civil penalties.

I didn't claim that you are a menace to society although I certainly would not discount anything with you.

Adultery is grounds for divorce.
It can cost you your marriage, house, kids, alimony, child support, and result in a dramatic reduction in your standard of living.
This is potentially far more costly than any fine the state would impose if this was illegal.

 

[rld]

I didn't claim that you are a menace to society although I certainly would not discount anything with you.

Adultery is grounds for divorce.
It can cost you your marriage, house, kids, alimony, child support, and result in a dramatic reduction in your standard of living.
This is potentially far more costly than any fine the state would impose if this was illegal.

Don't waste your time MB, Fuji has just failed to grasp even the basics of how civil and criminal law work. There are a multitude of things that are considered immoral almost universally and the state does not step in. His comment about civil penalties just makes no sense.

 

[very shy]

When any other business has potential business related unwanted liabilities, they get insurance. In this case it would be a liability owed to the kid for funding the kids needs. It might even be negligent of the SP to not have this kind of insurance?

 

[fuji]

Adultery is grounds for divorce.

Not in civilized countries like Canada it's not. We have "no fault" divorce here out of recognition that a sexual relationship is just too complex to make claims like that.

And even then, divorce is a normal proceeding. If my wife wants to divorce me, for whatever reason, she can. That's fine by me.

 

[fuji]

His comment about civil penalties just makes no sense.

Oh so you in your view laws are not an attempt by a society to enforce an ethical code of justice? Fairness, justice, those have no place in the creation of law?

You make me laugh sometime. You are so desperate to argue with me that you make the most ridiculous claims. Dig your hole a little deeper, I enjoy watching you flounder.

 

[Malibook]

Civil wedding, with a judge. I didn't recite any marriage vows other than the formalities required to be married.

A lie of omission is still a lie.

Let's ask your wife if she had an understanding of faithfulness and honour while you were getting married. :thumb:

 

[fuji]

A lie of omission is still a lie.

Let's ask your wife if she had an understanding of faithfulness and honour while you were getting married. :thumb:

Of course. As I've said before, sexual relationships are a nexus in which we face a series of fundamental contradictions. We are all instinctively motivated to cheat, and instinctively inclined to be outraged when we're cheated on ourselves. Life's not fair, and in this area, cannot be made fair by any code.

This is unlike, for example, murder, where we can all pretty much agree that murdering someone is unfair. Period.

 

[rld]

When any other business has potential business related unwanted liabilities, they get insurance. In this case it would be a liability owed to the kid for funding the kids needs. It might even be negligent of the SP to not have this kind of insurance?

Do you think there is an insurer who underwrites this type of risk?

 

[rld]

Not in civilized countries like Canada it's not. We have "no fault" divorce here out of recognition that a sexual relationship is just too complex to make claims like that.

And even then, divorce is a normal proceeding. If my wife wants to divorce me, for whatever reason, she can. That's fine by me.

Adultery remains grounds for divorce in Canada. You are, again, factually wrong.

 

[rld]

Of course. As I've said before, sexual relationships are a nexus in which we face a series of fundamental contradictions. We are all instinctively motivated to cheat, and instinctively inclined to be outraged when we're cheated on ourselves. Life's not fair, and in this area, cannot be made fair by any code.

This is unlike, for example, murder, where we can all pretty much agree that murdering someone is unfair. Period.

Lying or dishonesty in generally considered immoral. It is not illegal except in certain subsets.

Breaking promises is considered generally immoral. It is not illegal.

Shall we go on?

 

[blackrock13]

A lie of omission is still a lie.

Let's ask your wife if she had an understanding of faithfulness and honour while you were getting married. :thumb:

He probably had his fingers crossed, so his vows aren't binding. His lips were moving, words were coming out, but they meant nothing as he wasn't really there. Maybe his girlfriend was in the audience.

 

[Malibook]

That's irrelevant though--unless you are going to say that any lie of any kind is just as immoral as abandoning a child. So according to you, if someone tells their wife that they don't look fat in their new jeans, that's just as bad as child abandonment. You haven't been able to outline for me what harm arises from sexual jealousy. I'm pretty sure I can nail down solidly the harm that comes from abandoning a child.

How the fuck is this according to me?

Can you show me where I made such a claim or is this just more sidetracking fuji bullshit?

 

[fuji]

Adultery remains grounds for divorce in Canada. You are, again, factually wrong.

Adultery leads to the same outcome as no fault divorce. There are no extra penalties or any other consequences. You are correct, pedantically, but you have no point.

 

[rld]

Adultery leads to the same outcome as no fault divorce. There are no extra penalties or any other consequences. You are correct, pedantically, but you have no point.

You are so cute. There is no pedantry involved. You made a declarative statement that was wrong to try and defeat someone else's argument. Who is being pedantic?

You declared that civilized countries like Canada did not use adultery as a grounds for divorce.

You were flat out wrong. It just shows that from time to time talk without knowing what you are talking about.

Now, while there is no great penalty it does show that our legal system holds out three reasons to allow divorce of which adultry is one.

It can also allow for a faster divorce.

 

[fuji]

Lying or dishonesty in generally considered immoral. It is not illegal except in certain subsets.

Sure. Again, I'm asking the question: Do you see this as equivalent to child abandonment? Or is it immoral the way, say, jaywalking is immoral?

That's accepting that there is something immoral about sexual cheating AT ALL, which I don't accept--in reality I don't think your general claim about lying applies to the specific case of sexual relationships. For example, it's also not generally considered immoral to tell your wife that you don't think she's fat, when actually you do think so.

 

[fuji]

How the fuck is this according to me?

You tried to call me a hypocrit for criticizing child abandonment while engaging in sexual cheating. When I asked you to clarify why you thought they were equivalent you came back with lying. So you could abandon your argument that there is any hypocrisy here if you like, but if you don't want to abandon that argument, you will have to explain why lying should be considered equivalent to child abandonment.

 

[fuji]

It can also allow for a faster divorce.

OK... and this is evidence that adultery is immoral how? You're starting from the assumption that divorce is a bad thing? Can you explain how divorce is immoral or bad or in what way it's a bad outcome?

I mean if there was some punishment for the adulterer then you would have a point, but there isn't any such thing, so you have no such point.