I wish I understood.....

[yychobbyist]

I wish I could understand how Canadians are so willing to give away the responsibility for their own safety, their medical care, and are even willing to accept government assistance in such simple things as food on the table, and clothing on the backs of their children. I'm an American, and I can remember hearing my grandfathers tell how they both made it thru the Depression without once having to take a handout, and they were raising families too. It has been hard at times, but I have always tried to follow how they lived their lives, and I think I've done a decent job, but still....what makes us so different in this respect?....

This is one of the most puzzling posts I've ever read. Anyone who'd write this is seriously misinformed about what Canada and Canadians are all about.

 

[someone]

In the US, can you buy your way into University?

In Canada, I believe you have to meet requirements before being accepted into many courses. For some courses, the requirements are quite high.

I went to college, and the requirements were not too high, but the course was demanding and only about ¼ of the class finished the course, even though most tried very hard. I got the impression that in the US system, almost everyone passes.

As far as passing, in the U.S. the minimum passing grade is 60%. However, I found that that did not mean that the standards were higher but rather lower. It means that to get a decent pass rate, they have to teach at a even lower level.

As far as entrance requirements are concerned, if you have money in the U.S. there is always an institution for you. They have thousands of colleges and universities, each filling a market niche. I recall talking to a guy in psychology who had come from a high priced liberal arts college. Anytime he wanted to fail someone the dean would have a talk with him. Given that each student in question was worth $40 000 at this institution, the dean was very concerned about losing students. Their market niche was rich dumb students.

 

[Hard Idle]

It's not perfect but...

As long as people receiveing gov't assistance use it to stay home and behave themselves reasonably well (as opposed to dealing drugs, stealing, smuggling...) I'm happy to pay the taxes to buy that peace even if some of the people are not the most deserving or could do a little more.

My problem is the people who take the help but don't hold up their end of the bargain. These should be trated more harshly.

I'm glad most of our grandparents made it through the depression. I'm glad some people survived the Spanish Flu, or the days before antibiotics. That doesn't mean efforts to improve life were wrongheaded.

 

[someone]

With no facts I'd be willing to bet our teachers are paid as well or better than in most countries that kick our tail in standardized tests. .

In terms of the alternatives, I think you are wrong about that. I understand that even in U..S. jurisdictions that pay teachers more they do get better results. It is not a matter so much of paying them more than teachers in Korea (or wherever) as that is a separate labour market. It is more a matter of paying them enough to attract good people away from other occupations in the U.S. labour market.

As for the anti-intellectual reasoning - I think that’s empty.

Actually, I have traveled and lived enough I the U.S. to see that. I’m not saying that it is as bad as certain other countries (which also seem to have bad education systems). However, and amazing number of Americans take things like the story of creation literally (When I was in Kentucky one school superintendent even cut out the pages of a science textbook that covered the Big Bang theory). Moreover, the average person often has very little general knowledge when it comes to current or historical events. Their knowledge of geography is actually funny at times. You don’t really realize how bad it is in Canada as Americans who visit Canada tend to be more educated.

I realize that you could argue that I am getting cause and effect confused. You could argue that this is all just the result of a bad education system and not the cause. However, I have to think that the direction of causation goes both ways to some extent. If people don’t even have a basic curiosity of what is going on in the world it has to be reflected in the importance they place in education.

 

[Hard Idle]

I wish I could understand how Canadians are so willing to give away the responsibility for their own safety, their medical care, and are even willing to accept government assistance in such simple things as food on the table, and clothing on the backs of their children. I'm an American, and I can remember hearing my grandfathers tell how they both made it thru the Depression without once having to take a handout, and they were raising families too. It has been hard at times, but I have always tried to follow how they lived their lives, and I think I've done a decent job, but still....what makes us so different in this respect?....

The corporate interests who recieved government handouts in various forms probably laughed at people who boasted of not taking "handouts". They still do. Just as helping an industry can pay dividends to the country, so can propping up the lowest layer of society. At least some of those who get the help will have their faith in the basic social contract renewed.

 

[langeweile]

My kids have been in the US school system and are now in the Canadian school system. I haven't noticed a significant difference yet.

Just like in the USA it depends a lot on the individual school. Some teachers are better than others and some districts are managed better than others.

In general I have noted, that both the USA and Canada are lagging behind, most schools in Europe.
My niece and nephew are about the same age as my kids, they both go to school in Hungary. Judging by the material and the amount of homework, our kids have it very easy.
They seem to have more of a "traditional" curriculum. Lot's of repetition and drilling of the basics.
The North American approach is more of a varied approach.Lots of exposure to different concepts, but very little repetition and drilling.

Which one is better? I don't know, but it seems that in worldwide comparisons, North America finishes in the bottom half.

 

[someone]

Which one is better? I don't know, but it seems that in worldwide comparisons, North America finishes in the bottom half.

If you check out the OECD link I posted earlier I think that you will find that Canada is not doing that bad (although the 2003 assessment is down from the 2000 assessment, which is a worrying trend). That being said, I would definitely like to see Canada doing better. I suspect (but have no real evidence to cite in support) that part of this relatively good performance might be because other countries have gotten worse over time, and not because we are doing well.

 

[yychobbyist]

If you check out the OECD link I posted earlier I think that you will find that Canada is not doing that bad (although the 2003 assessment is down from the 2000 assessment, which is a worrying trend). That being said, I would definitely like to see Canada doing better. I suspect (but have no real evidence to cite in support) that part of this relatively good performance might be because other countries have gotten worse over time, and not because we are doing well.

And the most recent worldwide stats indicate Alberta students finish ahead of Asian, European and American students in math and science skills.

 

[someone]

And the most recent worldwide stats indicate Alberta students finish ahead of Asian, European and American students in math and science skills.

That is actually part of the same OECD study but you have to go to the Canadian web page for the provincial comparsions. For some of the tables comparing Canadian provinces with the leading countires, see http://www.pisa.gc.ca/pisa/brochure_e.shtml

 

[red]

haven't there been enough "my dad is bigger than your dad" comments in this thread and the board in general. now we are down to comparing test results for kids? christ- who gives a fuck. we all love the country we are from- isn't that enough - does it have to be better than the other guy's country - US has the biggest economy in the world- great - but unless I hear different most of the posters on here had nothing to do with it. Canada - best beer/hockey - fine- but none of us on the board had anything to do with it.


cannot we discuss issues of the day without squabbling

never mind. I am going to the bar for some tequila

 

[danmand]

haven't there been enough "my dad is bigger than your dad" comments in this thread and the board in general. now we are down to comparing test results for kids? christ- who gives a fuck. we all love the country we are from- isn't that enough - does it have to be better than the other guy's country - US has the biggest economy in the world- great - but unless I hear different most of the posters on here had nothing to do with it. Canada - best beer/hockey - fine- but none of us on the board had anything to do with it.


cannot we discuss issues of the day without squabbling

never mind. I am going to the bar for some tequila

Viva Mexico

 

[slowpoke]

If you check out the OECD link I posted earlier I think that you will find that Canada is not doing that bad (although the 2003 assessment is down from the 2000 assessment, which is a worrying trend). That being said, I would definitely like to see Canada doing better. I suspect (but have no real evidence to cite in support) that part of this relatively good performance might be because other countries have gotten worse over time, and not because we are doing well.

I was especially pleased with Canada's problem solving scores on page 33 of that OECD report. Thanks for the link. I'll even post it again so nobody will have to hunt for it:

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/1/63/34002454.pdf

Some countries scored well in mathematics but not as well in problem solving. I think the ability to solve problems by applying mathematics is more useful than simply understanding mathematics. Canadians scored well above the OECD average in both and we should be proud of this achievement. Also our superior literacy (page 35) and science performance (page 36).

I know this OECD test was for 15 year olds but it is indicative of our OVERALL quality of education. They selected 15 year olds because they are near the age where compulsory education will end:

"...The OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) provides some of the answers to these questions. It assesses to what extent students near the end of compulsory schooling have acquired some of the knowledge and skills that are essential for full participation in society. The first PISA survey, with a focus on reading, was conducted in 2000, while the second PISA survey, with a focus on mathematics, was conducted in 2003 and also examined for the first time student performance in problem solving..."

It would probably help the US if we only tested the kids who were still in school after the age of 16 or 17 because that would remove from the sample the large number of illiterate, poorly educated (disadvantaged) kids who'd already left school. After that, the US might stand a chance but not if you focus on their society as a whole.

 

[strange1]

From the PISA study, I noticed that the US had a much larger "confidence interval" meaning that there is a big difference between the have and have not students. As a proponent of universal education, it says to me that the US is one of the worst countries in providing equal access to a quality education. The US also has a clear "double hump" distribution of reading scores which again shows a divided population. Every country has it's geniuses; it's how we treat the others that is the most telling. Note also that Canada's interval is one of the smallest.

 

[cyrus]

Building his business was his life. He did'nt separate the 2. We all live life in different ways.

Yes we certainly do!

 

[slowpoke]

From the PISA study, I noticed that the US had a much larger "confidence interval" meaning that there is a big difference between the have and have not students. As a proponent of universal education, it says to me that the US is one of the worst countries in providing equal access to a quality education. The US also has a clear "double hump" distribution of reading scores which again shows a divided population. Every country has it's geniuses; it's how we treat the others that is the most telling. Note also that Canada's interval is one of the smallest.

You can measure a society's humanity by the way it treats its weakest and most vulnerable. So when you see a disadvantaged family here in Canada, you know that the children, at least, will have a good chance to break out of that cycle of poverty and become fully functioning, productive citizens. Between our educational system and our social programs, there is a considerable amount of help available to those who are willing to make an effort. Especially help for disadvantaged children. Yes this costs money and there will always be a few abusers but we'll either spend that money on trying to help our underprivileged or we'll spend more on building prisons, incarceration and the immeasureable cost of wasted of human potential.

 

[irlandais9000]

I don't consider the Fire Dept a handout because it's funded with MY tax dollars. The 40 million people without healthcare is a myth. If you are sick, and you go to the hospital, you get taken care of. You know why? Because it's the law. I was told this by a hospital administrator when my father had his stroke in Oct 2003. You know why they foreclosed on your grandfathers farm? Because he defaulted on the loan. Banks, like any other business, are there to make money, as much as they can. That is their job. That is why they were started. It's why people invest in them. I think it's time some people quit thinking the rest of us owe them a living, picked them selves up off of their sorry asses, and got to work. Both of my grandfathers went through the depression, and both were employed thruout it. One worked for the electic company, and the other ran his own auto shop. I'm glad I had them as inspiration, and not the welfare leeches we have around here today. When the whole world thinks it's owed a living, where is it going to come from?.....

Unfortunately, when most people talk about "welfare leeches" they are referring to the poor. I find welfare fraud as repugnant as anyone, but the real welfare fraud in this country is welfare for the rich, or to be more specific, welfare for George Bush campaign contributors. Our tax dollars are giving hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars to drug companies for research (see Bush's Medicare "reform") and to contractors in Iraq. This kind of money overshadows the amounts lost to welfare fraud by the poor.

 

[new2game]

Don't forget corporate welfare....

.....You know...like the southern states practice...and now we in Canada are foreced to practice too......giving thriving companies billions of dollars so they will set up shop in your backyard...these Southern states certainly don't have more expertise, they just have more money ,unmonitored , to throw at companies....Now to me this is the worst type of welfare fraud....

New2game