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I am NOT Charlie either.

Ms.FemmeFatale

Behind the camera
Jun 18, 2011
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www.msfemmefatale.com
You don't have to throw anything in peoples faces. You would offend extremists just by bieng what you are. A liberated women. That would be all the justification they need to shoot up a school or a coffee shop or what ever target they choose.
If you are going to condem terrorists, never follow your condemnation with the word BUT!


I fully support their right to freedom of speech, and I would never take away from what happened. It was wrong.

I am not Charlie. Just because have the right to be an offensive bitch, doesn't mean I will use it to throw it in people's faces.

Better? My points are still the same. I can take out the word for you if it makes it easier for you to understand. I get what you are saying as well. They are two different issues to me. One of terrorism and one of offensive material.
 

desperado

Caballero sin caballo
Oct 14, 2005
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What does the slogan"I am Charlie" printed on a plackard really mean? Does it literally mean that every person holding that plackard is Charlie?
NO! of course not. It is showing solidarity with people who have the right to live thier lives in a free society. We even have the right to be offensive. Maybe we go out of our way to be offensive or maybe just our lifestyle offends someone.
The more I thin about it the more I find this "I am not Charlie" thread repugnant. The only thing we should condem right now is this terrorist act
 

Aardvark154

New member
Jan 19, 2006
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From Salon

Elias Isquith

"Here are a few sentences I should not have to write but apparently must, all the same: Taking the life of another human being is an absolutely terrible thing for a person to do. By definition, murder is a crime — perhaps the most heinous one there is. No one should be physically threatened, much less killed, for sharing an opinion. Everyone should have the right to say, write, draw or otherwise express whatever sentiment they’d like without fear of violent reprisal. And anyone who thinks it’s not only appropriate, but righteous, to use violence or the threat of violence in order to silence those they disagree with is as profoundly wrong as they could be.

Some more things that should go without saying: The massacre of 10 journalists (and two law enforcement officers) at the offices of the Paris-based satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo that was carried out this week by Islamic extremists was an obscenity, a crime whose evil could never be adequately expressed with words. No matter how blasphemous, callous, insulting and bigoted the political cartoons produced by Charlie Hebdo over the years may have been, there is nothing — absolutely, positively and undoubtedly nothing — that could ever justify or excuse such fanatical sadism. The men who organized and perpetrated this slaughter were villains of the highest order, opponents of many of humanity’s greatest intellectual breakthroughs and moral achievements.

You can probably tell already, but I resent feeling that the above two paragraphs are necessary. But because I also happen to believe that many of the cartoons produced by Charlie Hebdo were mean-spirited, lazy, unfunny and sometimes baldly racist; because I do not believe that it is necessary for me to promote these cartoons in order to oppose their creators’ murder; and because some of the more influential members of the media and the government are trying to make lockstep support for Charlie Hebdo’s work a new litmus test of one’s belief in human freedom and dignity, they are. Indeed, for far too many people, it is seemingly impossible to hate the cartoon but love its creator. It’s a mindset that reminds me of nothing so much as McCarthyism — and as Matt Yglesias explained the other day in a thoughtful and sensitive post, it really sucks.

When I think of the people insinuating, or outright claiming, that one cannot claim to be a true opponent of radical, eliminationist Islam unless one showers Charlie Hebdo with unqualified praise, there are a few folks — mostly former supporters of the Iraq War — that most immediately come to mind. My colleague Heather Digby Parton has quite skillfully dismantled Jonathan Chait’s latest piece of preening bravado already, but he’s hardly the only person of influence who’s responded to the attack by whipping himself into a frenzy of empty bombast and portending (or is it promoting?) a coming apocalyptic struggle. The New York Times’ Roger Cohen tweeted in response to the news that the “entire free world” must avenge the killers’ victims “ruthlessly.” Ayaan Hirsi Ali predictably agreed and wrote that “the West” must respond to the massacre by ceasing to “appease leaders of Muslim organizations in our societies.”


http://www.salon.com/2015/01/10/ted..._dangerous_response_to_the_atrocity_in_paris/
 

Jiffypop69

Active member
Jul 7, 2009
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Believe me. I do condemn the terrorist attack. I also defend the rights and freedoms of free speech...what the entire thread was dedicated to was merely what I, and others think that the "I am Charlie" is not sympathetic to the murdered, but more an attack on Muslim's in general. We say "the cartoons are tasteless, rude, and offensive" but do we condemn it ? Do we look at how it effects others ? No...we DEFEND it as a right ! And if tomorrow The Toronto Sun printed a satirical cartoon that depicted Jews (and I'm sorry for using them as an example, but it acts as a counter argument especially when it come to Muslims) in concentration camps as getting what "they deserve"...We'd be APPALLED, and the person responsible would be labeled an anti-semite, he would lose his job, friends, perhaps go to jail, and maybe more. That person would be threatened in ways similar to what happened at Charlie.
The only difference is that you probably wouldn't have seen armed gunmen charge into the Sun headquarters.
That is a very important distinction, but nevertheless.

Case in point. http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/nov...s-apology-for-nazi-swastika-cartoon-1.2563156
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,360
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Believe me. I do condemn the terrorist attack. I also defend the rights and freedoms of free speech...what the entire thread was dedicated to was merely what I, and others think that the "I am Charlie" is not sympathetic to the murdered, but more an attack on Muslim's in general. We say "the cartoons are tasteless, rude, and offensive" but do we condemn it ? Do we look at how it effects others ? No...we DEFEND it as a right ! And if tomorrow The Toronto Sun printed a satirical cartoon that depicted Jews (and I'm sorry for using them as an example, but it acts as a counter argument especially when it come to Muslims) in concentration camps as getting what "they deserve"...We'd be APPALLED, and the person responsible would be labeled an anti-semite, he would lose his job, friends, perhaps go to jail, and maybe more. That person would be threatened in ways similar to what happened at Charlie.
The only difference is that you probably wouldn't have seen armed gunmen charge into the Sun headquarters.
That is a very important distinction, but nevertheless.

Case in point. http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/nov...s-apology-for-nazi-swastika-cartoon-1.2563156
Your Jewish example is not satire. Not an analogy. (I don't know what Charlie published, that was offensive).
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
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As a kid I loved MAD magazine but never read anything nearly as offensive to religion.
If you were around in the '70s, you should have tried National Lampoon.

I'm sure some of the Lampoon pieces such as The Story of Jessica Christ and Son O' God Comics would have been offensive to Christians.

Agreed, however, there are reasonable limits to free speech (like defamation or hate propaganda) but satire is not.
I don't mean to be difficult, but "reasonable limits" is just a polite euphemism for an allowable level of state censorship. I'm opposed to such censorship.

And, frankly, I don't see defamation laws as a "limit" on free speech. As I said in an earlier post, free speech means you should be able to express yourself without fear of state censorship. It doesn't mean you should be granted immunity from any consequences.
 

kkelso

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2003
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I don't mean to be difficult, but "reasonable limits" is just a polite euphemism for an allowable level of state censorship. I'm opposed to such censorship.

And, frankly, I don't see defamation laws as a "limit" on free speech. As I said in an earlier post, free speech means you should be able to express yourself without fear of state censorship. It doesn't mean you should be granted immunity from any consequences.
Very well stated.

KK
 

IM469

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2012
10,979
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What does the slogan"I am Charlie" printed on a placard really mean? Does it literally mean that every person holding that placard is Charlie?
NO! of course not. It is showing solidarity with people who have the right to live their lives in a free society. We even have the right to be offensive. Maybe we go out of our way to be offensive or maybe just our lifestyle offends someone.
The more I thin about it the more I find this "I am not Charlie" thread repugnant. The only thing we should condemn right now is this terrorist act
We can try one more time but there is a problem with many people to take a step back and grasp a concept without applying their own bias / prejudices. I saw the the up hill battle the gays had because people couldn't relate to their lifestyle. I see the same with bill C-36 which is a fundamental attack on freedom of choice but sympathy is clouded by people's personal prejudices.

Look at this :

Do you think all these world leaders are supporting the content of Charlie ? Do think they are here because they support the Pope depictions, the Mohammed depictions or any of the content ?



Do you think that all these people are standing up for the content of Charlie ? They are telling the terrorists that they represent a united front against fear and oppression from terrorist ideology. When you strike anyone of us - you strike us all - we are all Charlie - we are all united against you. Instead of mildly justifying a terrorist attack by 'they had it coming' just remember that educated women, honour killings, etc, etc are all on their twisted list . The Je suis Charlie represents a united front .. a kind of 'all for one and one for all' .. united we stand. I hope I've shed some light into why so many people (including corporate sponsors such as Google) worked hard to get the next issue out on the streets and embrace the slogan 'Je Suis Charlie''. For the millions of embracing 'Je Suis Charlie' - it is an act of defiance against evil that thrives on fear.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
60,294
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... And if tomorrow The Toronto Sun printed a satirical cartoon that ...
Satire would be pointing out where the religious/political values depicted are at odds with our societal values (or where their actions are at odds with their own values). Your example does not fit that.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,012
7
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
Lots of people are offended by lots of things. No doubt every single person here has on opinion that somebody somewhere finds offensive. Wet live in a society where we are allowed to be offensive without being killed for it.

MsFemme you indeed too are Charlie as you certainly hold beliefs they some in our society (say, Joy Smith) find deeply offensive.
 

rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
9,636
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There is not a single belief I hold that would warrant murdering someone if they mocked it. And that's really all there is to this. Faith is often the most harshly defended belief, maybe because people fear the truth and what it means for them personally.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
12,571
1,743
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Ghawar
I don't know the precise year but I believe there was law
against blasphemy or against anyone openly attacking the
scriptures in the UK in place until around the middle of 20th
century. Most likely that law was obsolete long before it was
abolished. Aside from Charles Bradlaugh's expulsion from the
parliament and Thomas Paine's 'Age of Reason' I can't think of
other high profile persecutions of non-belief in the Christian west
from the last few centuries. Knowing such aspects of the history
of freethought could shed some light on understanding of the
harsh manner religious faith is defended. In a deeply religious
society where organized religion function as an establishment of
social control faith has to be defended by law to maintain the
status quo. No such need in a secular world obviously. But when you
have a diversified population in a society where tyranny
of religion is long gone clashes between the past and present
is inevitable.
 

ChrisJunck

Member
Dec 1, 2010
81
17
8
To the OP the answer is no. Voltaire, one of the founding philosophers of the enlightenment famously stated 'I may not agree with what you have to say but I would give me life for you to have the right to say it.'
The principle of democracy and freedom of expression is precisely this, that we tolerate people with opinions that are unwelcome or different from our views to express themselves. The cartoonists, call them infantile, vulgar or provocative have expressed their opinion on various topics including Islam through the age-old, sacred tradition of satire, a cornerstone of western democracy. The protests of solidarity are not to endorse the specific views embraced by the cartoonists, but to stand behind the principle of satire, journalism and free expression.
 

lomotil

Well-known member
Mar 14, 2004
6,348
1,224
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Oblivion
If you were around in the '70s, you should have tried National Lampoon.

I'm sure some of the Lampoon pieces such as The Story of Jessica Christ and Son O' God Comics would have been offensive to Christians.



I don't mean to be difficult, but "reasonable limits" is just a polite euphemism for an allowable level of state censorship. I'm opposed to such censorship.

And, frankly, I don't see defamation laws as a "limit" on free speech. As I said in an earlier post, free speech means you should be able to express yourself without fear of state censorship. It doesn't mean you should be granted immunity from any consequences.
I agree with you about consequences. One reality is that the jihadists will increasingly have an effect on Western world in the years to come. One out of eight French citizens is a Muslim. Each individual on this planet should accept responsibility for their own actions, however some former European colonial powers now have their chickens coming home to roost and this will not change any time soon.
 

Jiffypop69

Active member
Jul 7, 2009
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Perhaps it's the picking, and choosing of sacred cows that makes me uneasy...which was the point of the thread in the first place.
NOT freedom of speech.
 

oftenrong69

Member
Apr 30, 2010
297
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Wonderful thread. My thoughts turn in a slightly different direction.
Do people with a larger voice(I.e the media) have a different standard against which they should be measured?
An example might help. During the conflict in the Balkans I knew a Croat who really hated Serbs and said that they deserve to die because they were scum and he would willingly express this point of view openly over a few cocktails. As I understand the argument here, we needn't agree with him but he has the right to express his views.
Now, if he were a journalist or cartoonist, should he be held accountable in a different way if he expresses his opinion given that his opinions could a) Offend a larger audience or b) motivate some in his audience to use his words as justification to attack Serbs?
 

Jiffypop69

Active member
Jul 7, 2009
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There is not a single belief I hold that would warrant murdering someone if they mocked it. And that's really all there is to this. Faith is often the most harshly defended belief, maybe because people fear the truth and what it means for them personally.
Try having a debate about "gun-control"....but seriously, Getting together and fighting EVIL in all its forms (especially the kind of evil that lurks among us, plotting to inflict as much damage as possible) is the most noble of causes; second to protecting the rights and freedoms of ALL our citizens from hate mongering xenophobic and pretentious groups, or persons.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
12,571
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Ghawar
Gun control?! If only the staff at Charlie were armed instead of
seeking protection from inept police they would have defended
themselves or even killed the gunmen.
 
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